Discussion EnsembleDarkhorse / DragonBall

• The announcer for the World Martial Arts Tournament, so much so that when he didn't appear in the Cell Games Saga, with bumbling reporter Jimmy Firecracker taking his role, some fans got quite irate. Fortunately, he makes his return in the Buu Saga.
  • This totally counts
• General Blue, for being pretty much the only competent member of the Red Ribbon Army - starting at the point where he strangles an electric eel to death while it's still electrocuting him. There is also the fact that he is the first villain to almost kill Goku in a straight fight. Pity he’s also a paedophile.
  • Is he actually popular? It sounds more like "he's badass" not "he's popular and minor."
• Similarly, the villain who follows Blue - Mercenary Tao Pai Pai, who kills Blue with his tongue and is the first villain to flat-out defeat Goku, not to mention the first legitimate Knight of Cerebus the series has ever had, before even Piccolo.
  • I think he would count. He's a Knight of Cerebus but he's still pretty minor in the grand scheme of things, and he's pretty popular I believe
• Demon King Piccolo for being the Knight of Cerebus that turned Dragon Ball from a lighthearted adventure series, to the action-pack drama we know it today. He is also one of the most cunning villains in the show who outwitted the heroes and never succumb to holding the Villain Ball like many later enemies. Even Toriyama himself says that Piccolo is still his favorite villain.
  • Favorite is reasonable, but he's the most prominent villain in (pre-Z) DB. That seems not ensemble-y enough.
• Akkuman/Devilman for having what could be considered the most powerful attack in all of Dragon Ball/Z. Hell he was even a playable character in Budokai Tenkaichi 3 (where he even gets his own what-if story), Dragon Ball: Advanced Adventure, and Dragon Ball: The Revenge of King Piccolo.
  • Seems fine.
• Yamcha. Ironically, the more he seems to fade away, the larger, or at least more vocal, his fanbase becomes. For whatever reason, Yamcha is easily among the more popular human characters in Dragon Ball, getting his own spin-off manga, having an entire, long-running fan manga dedicated to him (Dragon Ball Z Elsewhere) and is a prominent player in a large number of fanworks (Like his Android 17 analogue in Dragon Ball Multiverse or The Woobie from Dragon Ball Z Abridged). People were even disappointed when Yamcha wasn't chosen as a warrior to join the Tournament of Power in Super. According to a poll done by a Japanese magazine, Yamcha was the most requested character who people wanted to see helping Universe 7 (By comparison, Gotenks, Pikkon, Future Trunks, or Cell didn't even reach that high.)

  • Fans particularly found the spin off manga "Reborn as Yamcha" particularly gratifying as by having someone else in Yamcha’s body the desert bandit can go though the needed Training from Hell. So when it cuts to his embarrassing death by exploding Saibaman, it’s more the awesome to see Yamcha standing unharmed.

  • Example indentation aside, seems like he counts.

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Those are fine.

However, these characters have come base breaking characters:

Bardock (because of how inconsistent he is, the fandom always questions if his story ruins the Saiyan saga by making Goku special, and his Minus counterpart. The fact Toei milks him beyond his first appearance thus ruining his main appeal is a sore spot)

Vegetto and Gogeta: They are fusions, but also a lot of people have been vocal about hating them due to well, being, one-note compared with Gotenks.

Broly: Always has been, always will be.

Future Trunks: For the old readers of DB who tend to dislike the Cell saga in general.

Kale, Jiren, Caulifla and Kefla. Besides, they were main antagonists.

Hit is still a darkhorse by everyone, as hardly anyone complains about him.

To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.

Copy Vegeta's entry sounds more like Germans Love David Hasselhoff, since it explicitly points out Funimation's decision to bring over a fan-favorite Brian Drummond to bring life to an otherwise "meh"-received one-shot antagonist from the original JPN airing.

---

Majora, most of those characters aren't long-time base-breakers.

• Future Trunks: There's a reason one of Toriyama's editors suggested to bring back the guy for his own saga, even though he was pretty much a secondary character originally for the Android and Cell Sagas. These "older readers" and their hot-takes apparently aren't vocal enough within their own group.
• Vegetto and Gogeta: Much like F.Trunks, recent hot-takes shouldn't cloud the fact that their short, "one-note" nature actually supports their inclusion as Darkhorses during their original run.
• Bardock: Once again, recent hot-takes shouldn't ignore the fact that Bardock served a similar "one-note" role, much like Raditz, of being the last futile stand against Freeza. Only appeared for two panels in the original manga, but managed to become a Breakout Character.
• Universe 6 characters are generally considered secondary, even below Universe 7's very own in terms. Those U6 Saiyans weren't even considered base-breaking by the time the arc concluded, as evident by two post-TOP polls on Reddit and Funimation (the latter one even surprising some of the guests under the impression that "Best New Character" would have gone to people like Jiren or Hit).

Why did you call me Majora?

To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.

Another issue is that characters sort of faded in and out of relevance and popularity. I almost think that separating it to EnsembleDarkhorse.Dragon Ball, EnsembleDarkhorse.Dragon Ball Z, and EnsembleDarkhorse.Dragon Ball Super would make sense.

Take Future Trunks. He was an ED in DBZ's time because he was relatively minor but completely beloved. Come Super, he's less beloved and has more focus.

DBZ ones I take issue with:

• Android 18 is a well-loved character, thanks to being one of the very few Action Girl characters in the series prior to Super and having a dry Manipulative Bitch personality that's a lot of fun to watch.
  • Is she too main to count? Honestly not sure.
• Android 17 was an important, but ultimately minor character in the Android/Cell saga that got ultimately pushed to the side once his part in the story was over, and was overshadowed by his sister in popularity. Come the Universe Survival Arc of Super and he ends up being recruited into Universe 7's team, he shows himself to be one of the most competent, powerful and downright awesome characters to ever come back into the fold yet. His Darkhose status only grew after in a surprising twist, he ended up being the winner of the Universe Survival Tournament.
  • Already pulled this before I made the cleanup effort, but yeah, this is blatantly "okay, when he wasn't important he wasn't popular, and then when he became prominent, he became more popular!"
• The Supreme Kai of the West, the only female Supreme Kai ever shown in the franchise before Super, is quite popular with some fans. She was popular enough that Toyotarō, before working on the Dragon Ball Super manga, used her on his Dragon Ball AF doujinshi as a main villain. This is quite funny considering that, while she is mentioned in the manga, her design is entirely made by Toei. She doesn't even have more lines than Appule!
  • Literally dead last in the linked character poll. She's a cut.
• Much like Android 17, Pan was such a minor character in Z, only appearing at the very end, that most fans were either apathetic towards her or they outright hated her due to her depiction in GT. However, her depiction in Super quickly made her beloved in the fanbase, thanks to being one-year old and already knowing how to fly and use Ki-attacks.
  • I cut 17 because he only gained popularity when he gained relevance. So comparing Pan to him is worrisome. Honestly it sounds more like Rescued From The Scrappy heap, rather than swinging to ED.

Edited by Larkmarn Found a Youtube Channel with political stances you want to share? Hop on over to this page and add them.

GT examples I have issue with:

• While you’ll find some who still dislike Super 17 since he technically ruins the Heel–Face Turn from killer Cyborg to Friend to All Living Things development 17 went though. It’s hard not to deny his cool design and particularly callous Ax-Crazy nature is very fun especially compared to the lamer GT villains. Super 17 also provides Character Development to Android 18 and added closure to their mission to kill Goku which was swept under the rug in the manga by having 18 and Goku stop Super 17 despite the former being programmed to kill Goku. If you need more convincing Super 17 has appeared in the most games alongside Syn Shrenron than any other GT villain.
  • Super 17 is at best a Base-Breaking Character. Not to mention he's the Arc Villain so would be exempt anyway.
  • The Shadow Dragons as a whole, conceptually. Like Super Saiyan 4 below, one of the things that people really found to be an interesting idea for GT, taking what had long become relegated to a Reset Button and giving it consequences. Though that said, while the concept was deemed interesting, the execution was not, with most of the Shadow Dragons being gimmicky, one-note villains of the week, with only Nuova, Omega, and Eis winning fans over.
  • Concepts can't be Ensemble Darkhorses. This is They Wasted a Perfectly Good Plot
• For the series as a whole, Super Saiyan 4 was one of the few things that was well-received from GT. This transformation gained a lot of popularity because of how unique it is compared to other Saiyan transformations.
  • I question whether transformations can count, and I question whether SS 4 would count anyway. When I hear about it, a lot of people find it overly 90's edgy.

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None of GT examples count outside of Eins Shenron and his brother and Rildo.

Don't separate the series.

To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.

Hoo boy. Super. Going to list all of them, whether I agree or not because I am less familiar with Super.

BEGIN SUPER PART 1

Once Dragon Ball Super got into its new material, it introduced several characters who are shaping up to become quite popular:

• The chef that cooked for Beerus and Whis, referred memetically as the world's savior (considering one of the sole reasons Beerus refuses to destroy Earth is the cuisine).
  • Sure? I don't know if he's popular so it sounds more like Memetic Badass, but yeah.
• Universe 6 has a fair share of fan-favorite characters.
  • Vados is well-liked by the fandom, despite mostly being a Distaff Counterpart to her brother. She gets a lot of positive reception for being a classy, polite Beleaguered Assistant and Servile Snarker to Champa, as well as being one of the franchises strongest female character.
    • As the most prominent Angel other than Whis, she doesn't rank highly enough (44 out of 96) to count in terms of popularity based on her presence, I would think.
  • Magetta wasn't liked at first, mainly because many thought his design was a bit wonky or at least inferior to the other members of Universe 6. However, when they saw him fight, he quickly became a pretty popular character, in no small part because his fighting style is very unique and tactical in a series that mostly relies on Ki Attacks and Rapid-Fire Fisticuffs. When the Funimation dub changed the Metal Man's vocals to a text-to-speech format, rather than keeping a human VA, a surprising amount of Super fans were outraged. They argued the decision ruined Magetta's charm and wordplay, despite being a minor mini-boss character among Universe 6's team.
    • Sounds more like Rescued from the Scrappy Heap, he doesn't even seem to be on the poll so I just don't think he's popular enough. I like him, though.
  • Hit. He has the status of a legendary hitman in Universe 6 and displays an intriguing fighting style that allows him to defeat Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta, who defeated three contestants in a row, then proceeded to have what is widely agreed to be one of the best fights in the series against Goku in what, for all intents and purposes, is the decisive bout of the tournament. Hit's development throughout his match also won over many people who thought he was just a typical, aloof badass. He eventually returned in his own two-part mini-arc featuring a rematch with Goku, reappeared in the Tournament of Power a prominent role, and has become a stable of being one of the first representatives of Super-era characters in video games and other tie-ins.
  • Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too prominent. He's a major Arc Villain. He's supposed to be cool. Definite cut.
  • Frost: Although he lost his initial appeal of being a Good Counterpart of Frieza after the reveal, Frost garnered a decent fanbase for his own brand of underhanded tactics and charismatic conviction. This is greatly highlighted in his spotlight episode, Episode 107, during the Tournament of Power arc where he temporarily outwitted both Roshi and Vegeta, nearly costing Universe 7 a major setback. Since then, his fanbase has grown in numbers and appreciation for the execution of his character. Not to mention, his chemistry with Frieza during the arc itself.
  • "People liked him when he was prominent, and like him more when he has more screen time! Who could have guessed it!" This is coming from someone who really likes Frost.
  • Caulifla: She was an instant hit for being the first canon female Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan 2 to appear in the anime and manga. There's also the fact she acts more like the savage Saiyans of Universe 7, rather than the more civil, noble Saiyans like Cabba, essentially making her a Distaff Counterpart to Goku since they are both opposites in their races. She also gained quite a fan following for being the one of strongest Saiyans in Universe 6. According to some fan polls, she won over more fans than Cabba and Kale themselves, despite Kale being the most awaited character before the saga even started!
    • Isn't she more BBC than straight up popular? Also, 80/96. Not popular enough given her prominence.
  • Kale: First shown in the initial trailer for the Universal Survival Saga as a competing Saiyan with a similar legendary Super Saiyan form, she was already this before the saga even started. In the story proper, her reserved demeanor reacting to Caulifla's vivacious type sparked a plethora of positive fan reception, according to arc director Ryōta Nakamura. Depending on the medium, fans have latched on to her personality extending to Character Arc about reigning in her power and self-worth, or a Submissive Badass bodyguard to Caulifla in secret to happily make her boss look good. Her controlled/Super Saiyan Two form is often cited as the ideal body type for female (Super) Saiyan, much like the primal Saiyan from Z's filler.
    • Exactly the same, except that she's tied for 96/96. Cut.
  • Kefla: To wrap up the female Saiyans is the unexpected fusion of the two, which brought about a fan-favorite battle between her and Ultra Instinct -Omen- Goku. In some cases, this cocky fusion can eclipse the appeal and popularity of her fusses, often requested to be put in future Dragon Ball games for the sake of a relevant female fighter and moveset potential (such as the competitively-driven Dragon Ball Fighter Z). Being DLC for Xenoverse 2 months down the road is a start.
    • 44, and really less screentime since she's a Fusion and less a character. I'd consider her.
  • Dr. Rota, despite being a glorified fodder, is well-liked by fans due to his hilarious Joke Character status who always gets interrupted before he can show his ability which led fans to jokingly suggest that he is actually strong enough to defeat everyone with his ability.
    • Having a Memetic Mutation does not make one actually popular. Do people actually like him?
  • Saonel and Pirina: Not much was seen or known about this pair, as the initial line-up for Universe 6's representatives only showed eight of out of ten necessary members. Only the midway point of the Tournament of Power suddenly revealed to be Universe 6's Namekians. Namekians, besides Piccolo, are rarely involved in modern Dragon Ball stories, so the eagerness to see new ones in the middle of a battle royale peaked fan interest at the chance of them meeting and fighting Piccolo. Not only did they get a focal battle between Gohan and Piccolo, which borrowed new lore about being super Namekians fusions, but they managed to be Universe 6's last stand.
  • Sounds legit
• Gowasu, for being a Godtuber and the source of a good tonne of memes from the "Future Trunks" Saga. His Memetic Loser status of always receiving the short end of the stick is the source of many jokes, especially him being killed three times onscreen in the space of one saga, with one of them being undone (giving Krillin a run for his money). Fans also felt a lot of pity for him at the end of the Future Trunks Saga, where he considered everything his fault and sin. There is a lot of fan art of him, with either Zamasu, God of Destruction Rumsshi, or Cus the angel. The fanbase was very saddened when he was erased with the rest of Universe 10—and were subsequently overjoyed to see him revived after the tournament.
  • This is one I get, but he doesn't show up on the poll. Might be a Germans Love David Hasselhoff thing. I see why he would be popular, but I don't actually see evidence of it. I searched for "DBS G Owasu popularity" and best I came up with was this decidedly mixed Reddit thread.
• For the Universal Survival arc, out of all the Gods of Destruction and angels involved in the Tournament of Power the most popular ones are:
  • Okay, this is listing over half of the Gods. That's out of hand. It needs clipping.
  • Universe 11 clown God of Destruction resembling Pennywise, Vermoud, and Marcarita his angel attendant. The two of them are constantly compared to Joker and Harley Quinn among western fans and were among the first characters to receive fanart.
    • Talking about western fans is irrelevant, that said he looks like he comes up 80th in the poll. I think Sidra is the only other GOD on there at all, so I could count him
  • Universe 10 Elephant God, Rumsshi and his angel Cus. There's a lot of fanart of these two often with Gowasu or Zamasu. Cus' excited reactions at seeing the fights also became memetic.
    • Just doesn't actually seem popular
  • The Robot God Mosco from Universe 3. Many fans like him for being a creative concept in the form of a robotic god, but also quite silly as he talks through beeps similar to R2D2 from Star Wars.
    • He's my favorite GOD, but I don't think he's actually got the popularity
  • The Goddess of Destruction from Universe 2, Jerez, is also well-liked for being the strongest non-angel Action Girl and her Egyptian theme design. It helps she is a Benevolent Boss to her team during the Tournament of Power, while her habit of referring to everything as "beautiful" (including Goku) provides humorous moments.
    • Doesn't seem that actually popular.
  • Sidra, the God of Destruction of Universe 9 didn't have much attention at first, but gained popularity once he was shown to be one of the few kind Gods of Destructions, who doesn't take joy in destroying things and only carries out judgement on evildoers. He's also stuck with the weakest universe despite his benevolence. But what really won supporters over is his Face Death with Dignity, not panicking or crying in fear like everyone else as Universe 9 got erased.
    • He's got the popularity (64/96), and I don't think he had much more prominence to really justify it. I'll count it.
  • Likewise, the Gods of Destruction of the 8th and 12th universe, Liquiir and Geene, have attracted the attention of the fanbase for either having the best design for a god (Liquiir, who is also quite Popular with Furries), or having an interesting backstory (Geene, who after obtaining the second best universe, has grown bored and is interested in watching the Tournament of Power.) Fans were disappointed they, and neither Iwne and Arack, weren't going to be involved in the Universal Survival arc other than commentators, but were pleased when they saw Liquiir have a friendly fight with two fellow GoDs.
    • No sign of actual popularity?'''

Edited by Larkmarn Found a Youtube Channel with political stances you want to share? Hop on over to this page and add them.

I call bullcrap on Hit, he isn't that recurrent.

To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.

While Geene doesn't have that much popularity, Liquiir does, he has a pretty cool design and someone even made a fan animation with him fighting Gohan, alongside a lot of fan art.

He counts.

To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.

Kale and Caulifla are still pretty popular though, enough that heroes even made new cards for them.

And Caulifla counts since Toei mainly asked Toriyama for a female Broly design and ended creating Caulifla alongside Kale, but Caulifla is arguably the more popular of the two.

I suggest we wait. Hide both if you please. :)

To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.

wait is ok for me.

Edited by rafi

Kale seemed divisive straight from her introduction, but Caulifla seems to have generally favorable opinions. Though remember that characters can still be ensemble darkhorses even if they have periphery haters, so long as they are minor characters with very large numbers of vocal fans.

Like you see in the Dragon Ball Universe 6 history page an user added a scrappy entry to Caulifla. the entry now is removed, but this show that she actually is Base-Breaking Character and not more a fan-favorite.

Edited by babil

I can see that, but I heavily suggest we wait until the arc is over so we can give a proper opinion. After all, most of the hate comes from her obtaining the SSJ 2 transformation (Older Than They Think) and being smug (Double Standard, since almost everyone is smug in this show). If she receives the blue transformation or not, we will get a proper confirmation if she is hated or not.

To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.

A few months have passed since these last comments, and both have become the possibly most hated To P characters along with Ribrianne (who now has a The Scrappy entry in the Super YMMV page) from what I've seen.

Kale yes, Caulifla no. Caulifla still has lots of defenders due to her personality counteracting her power ups. Kale kept getting more hated for just being a Broly ripoff, but given this is Broly fanboys we're talking about she's Base-Breaking Character at worst.

Both of them are Base-Breaking Character's. Neither of them are truly the scrappy since the negative traits are shared with other characters in the franchise (Namely, Goten and Trunks), and they are still getting fan art to this minute. Besides, I suggest to wait for the saga to end.

To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.

^agreed

Caulifla is way to popular to even begin to be considered a Scrappy. Although I've seen plenty complaints who say her Ass Pull is even bigger than Goten and Trunks.

Is no bigger than Vegeta getting the SSJ 1, 2, and blue off-screen. Or Goku getting the SSJ 2 and 3 off-screen.

I think people just want the transformations to be always "Traumatic transformation", which is fine and all, and they are taking their frustration on Caulifla and Kale. I'll understand Kale hatred, since the berserker super saiyan is not explained, but Caulifla is just doing the same thing Goten, Trunks, and every other Saiyan has been doing off-screen... on-screen.

To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.

I'm not saying it's reasonable, it's just what people complain about. Especially reducing the trigger to "tingling feeling in back" gets brought up a lot.

Eh, I guess.

To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.

Kale and Caulifla are popular enough to be still considered darkhorses, especially in Japan where they don't seem to have a noticeable hatedom. Plus, they have WAY too much fan-art and fan-fiction (which is still being made today) to be considered scrappies.

Also, there's this to consider: https://www.animeranking.net/stat.php?id=34

This is an unoffical popularity poll of characters in the DB franchise. Look at how high Kale and Caulifla are ranked.

Edited by kn83

I think we can take Kale off though. She was kinda too major of a character to be a dark horse anyway with how much the story focuses on her. And while she does have a very large fandom, the peripherary hatedom balances it out.

Kale is a Base-Breaking Character, without much of an issue. Taking her out, Caulifla can remain, as she is still very popular (Back tingles aside)

To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.

I'll have to disagree on Kale "being too major of a character to be considered a darkhorse", considering she tied with Caulifla on screentime and importance to the plot together (Caulifla, within the show's airing, was rather introduced first, not the other way around). Yet, both qualify for " non-lead secondary character" requirement.

Not to mention, it's becoming rather common for initial detractors of the anime depiction of Kale to voice their liking to her manga counterpart, much like Jiren.

Furthermore, it's rather odd to remove one half of an intentional pairing commonly criticized together (in the same breath) for sharing and having their own issues, but leave the other out. This was even established earlier in this very thread.

Edited by XMenMutant22

Well thing is, Kale was far more heavily advertised than Caulifla was. She was all over the trailers before it was even known Caulifla existed. I'm torn on if Caulifla's screen time excludes her or not, but for the most Kale was more hyped up by the show with her Broly forms constantly being at the centre of attention.

In terms of popularity however, Caulifla certainly had no shortage of detractors, but Kale is far more polarizing, which seems from the fact she's a walking Broly expy who was polarizing to begin with. Caulifla gained criticism later with the speed she reached the transformations, but was nowhere near as divided as Kale.

Edited by Snowy66

Other than how fast she obtained the transformations, people do like Caulifla's personality. Kale, however, has been a mixed bag by many.

To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.

Heavily advertised is a bit of an odd point, in my opinion. Should Hit, or to a lesser extent Cabba, be excluded because he was a major antagonist of the Champa Arc and had his initial design sheets (along with the rest of Universe 6 drawn by Toriyama) made available prior to the arc to hype them up?

I strongly believe against that. Super as a whole, and even the TOP, him, Caulifla, Kale, and the rest of Universe 6 as secondary characters (and antagonists to Goku) in the vain of Ribrianne, Anilaza, Toppo, Dyspo. The amount of screen time isn't as weighty on their eligibility, going by TV Tropes' definition.

---

And to reevaluate on an earlier point, going by the month-old Japanese poll, it seems that hatred for both U6 Saiyans Girls has gone down to make them less base-breaking than their debut period.

Even in English-speaking forums, besides the usual fan-art, it's becoming common to hear both girls (or Kefla, another qualifier of this entry for their own reason) as requests for Fighter Z or Xenoverse. And again, manga version of Kale seems to be favorable even to those that didn't like her Anime counterpart.

Tomodachi mentioned Anime Ajay as an example of a critic, though the normally vocal critic of Super, KaiserNeko of Abridged frame, seems to place her above Broly as some of Reconstruction of his character type. IGN's review of Episode 100 and Watch Majo similarly seemed to place her on good terms.

Edited by XMenMutant22

Hit I'm not sure about. He did play an significant role, but he didn't seem to get screentime just for the sake of the writers wanting to have focus on him. His focus is always plot relevant and not obvious fanservice/writer's pet type displays.

Cabba I am borderline considering not including at all since from what I've seen people largely treat him as a Replacement Scrappy for Tarble.

Well a while back Zeno was removed from the page due to being "too major a character". While he does have significance to the plot, he does not have that much screentime comparatively.

Look one thing I can say with absolute certainty. As far as popularity goes it's very clear Caulifla >>> Kale. Even with hatred waning, there are plenty who will not stop criticizing Kale for the early issues with her character.

I'll concede with the "Caulifla>Kale" being a likely opinion to come across. :D

However, your point about "despite waning hatred" can still be cynically applied to Caulifla without fault ("Mary Sue prodigy", "back tingles", "some sexist implication about feminist pandering in Japan" being commonly retorted complaints). Yet, in this case of both girls, this general subversion description for Base-Breaking Character would still keep them off the mark.

Remember, both Caulifla and Kale, in the same sentence, were/are considered Base-Breaking Characters ''and' Ensemble Darkhorses at some point (which even your earlier arguments established earlier). Broly, as you implied earlier, fits both criteria under similar situations in the Dragon Ball fandom with the history to prove it.

The Base-Breaking Character page, at the moment, is in limbo as well (which was the suggested move). That further proves that there's no point in displacing her into a section that doesn't quite fit her anymore...when it doesn't even exist.

---

Zen-Oh: Arguably, he could apply. The main face of Darkhorse Ensemble features a character of similarly godly, yet supporting status within My Little Pony.

Here's how I view supporting characters in modern Dragon Ball: if this character isn't from Universe 7, have not been adopted regularly into the main cast (Beerus and Whis, for instance), they're more likely going to be a supporting character.

Hit: He has the bonus of being Ensemble Dark Horse and Breakout Character after his debut (his two-parter after the Future Trunks Saga, for all intents and purpose, is pretty self-contained.)

Cabba: Replacement Scrappy may have fit at some point, but he's more of a subversion nowadays. His mentor/mentee relationship with Vegeta is often brought up in a good light, and a decent portion of fans were quite vocal about Cabba getting supposedly sidelined in the Tournament of Power (Episode 112 included).

Ironically, almost to the point where they initially preferred him over Caulifla or Kale in terms of Universe 6 Saiyans, citing how "he earned his transformation", his polite nature, and how "he should have had more screentime, not the U6 girls".

Edited by XMenMutant22

Alternatively, how's this for a compromise: Since I mentioned Toyotaro's on-going depiction of Kale usually being a favorable pick (even by initial detractors), how about we use it as a benchmark?

If, by the end of her and Caulifla's arc within Toyotaro's version of Tournament of Power, opinions have yet to be considered "less divide", we keep her off. However, if her growing revaluation persists, we place her back on. Reasonable?

I can roll with that. Sure, we'll wait for the manga to give the final verdict.

I think its fair to say that both Kale and Caulifla (and Broly for that matter) are Base-Breakers among the Western fandom but Ensemble Darkhorses in both Japan/Asia and Latin America, as they don't seem to have a large hatedom in those parts of the world.

Also, the complaints among the American fandom about Kale and Caulifla being examples of "feminist pandering" are really stupid, since in Japan feminism is neither popular nor does it have any control on their pop culture and the real reason why Kale was created (according to the writers of Super) was to appeal to Broly fans, with Caulifla being added on afterwards by Toriyama.

I don't know about the Latin American fanbase regarding Caulifla and Kale. Many critics also come from there.

To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.

They have nowhere near the amount of critics in Latin America that they have in the North America though.

A little early admittedly, Manga!Kale in Chaper 37 is getting a warmer impression from initial detractors, in addition to the anime fans (some even preferring it over the Anime's depiction).

I'm basing this from the NautroForums (that usually leaks and provides translated summaries) and the Kanzenshuu thread about the Super Manga.

Viz usually translates the chapter around the 21st or the weekend, so we'll see.

The sakuga group reacted positively to her manga despiction too.

To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.

@Tomodachi

1. Technically, EVERY character is a base breaker by your standard.

2. Most of your examples are bad because the fanbases of the characters you listed (especially Z-Bardock, Vegito/Gogeta & F.Trunks)FAR outsize their hatebases. Besides both Vegito & Gogeta are far more popular than Gotenks (who is listed as a Scappy on this very site and is even more one-note than both of them).

And alot of your picks showcase your personal biases rather than the actual views of most of the fandom.

Edited by kn83

Quoting Square Peg, Round Trope, "Ensemble Dark Horse is supposed to refer to when a minor character who does little in the story becomes unexpectedly popular with the fans. It isn't supposed to mean "any character besides the main character who is popular." There have even been cases where the main character or one of the main characters themselves were listed."

Future Trunks is a Breakout Character, he doesn't count. Not to mention he wasn't a minor character in either the Cell or the Future Trunks arcs.

The same will be said about Bardock, who last time I checked, has one tv special to his name, one OVA where he gets Super Saiyan, a manga spin-off of the same story, and a reboot in Jaco who was adapted in Broly. A minor character doesn't get this to qualify as a darkhorse, especially as the sequel and reboot are unpopular incarnations, turning Bardock in a Base-Breaking Character at best.

Not to mention both character's incarnations are multiple videogames selling point. Listing Trunks as a minor character is like listing Lando Calrissian as one. No.

I've spoken with people who aren't fond of fusions (which includes Gotenks), not to mention that due to their marketing push in the modern material they no longer count as minor characters, they are basically main stars now. Besides, Fusion Reborn and Broly selling points are freaking Gogeta, he is not a minor character.

We can discuss about any other character if you want, but this is also a point to be discussed in the Darkhorse Cleanup forum.

To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.

Not anymore. He is a Base Beaking Character, just like Kale.

To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.

What about Toppo? He seems to have been more popular than Jiren from the start and especially after showing his God form.

Toppo is popular, perhaps much more than Jiren due to his hamtastic personality and hidden depths during the recruitment episodes. His role is also rather minor compared with Jiren.

To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.

Well he was at the time of introduction in U6 Tournament, but his popularity has waned since then.