Lowen isn't really a third wheel to Kent and Sain for Elibe. He's more associated with the Pherae house with Marcus and Isadora as far as other cavs go.

I'd also say that Garcia joining in the same chapter as Ross makes it seem like the intent is Bord and Cord, not solo axe fighter.

Okay, that's done with. Moving on...

I think that Nyna's brainwashing stint in FE 3 Book 2 is not integral to the core archetype requirement of a Nyna. They seem closer to a Cornelius-turned-Eremiya instead. But we only had two examples like that, so I think it's more of a normal 'Expy' characters.

Additionally, can you pinpoint examples at when the Heroine and Tiki overlap? Veyle seems to be a good example, but again, Veyle is ruled out as a Tiki because she does not work like a typical manakate unit (but then again, Alear is already a dragon unit that works like a human unit, unlike Corrin who has a dragon form). Kinda confused, but we'll see if this can work.

I'll try, might be Veyle's recency bias blurring out things:

• Deirdre and Julia: The prime example of such overlap. Mysterious maidens with a special bloodline. While all Holy Blood came from dragons, Naga (and Loptyr) are more prominent especially with how their holy weapons work, users of those tomes are treated as practically Dragons in the story.
• Ninian: Prime love interest to Eliwood, special powers, but actually a dragon (though she doesn't transform as one as a playable unit).
• Azura has her plot singing that could subdue the big bad's corruption powers. Not a dragon and has a more cold personality.
• Lilith could count as well because she's actually a dragon, but she's so barely in the story and her dragon form is very limited to an NPC in Invasion modes.

It seems like as time passes, the series try really hard to not make these types of characters as dragonshifters as well.

At best, we'll just have a split similar to one Lord archetype becoming Peaceful and Martial Lord archetypes.

Probably worth waiting to see if there's any sort of Alear-specific Character Customization or Hello, [Insert Name Here]

Could be a case of Early Installment Weirdness.

Anything else they have in common?

I wouldn't mind. I'd at least call it the Goddess anyway since the main god in any FE game is usually female. They're also usually the figure depicted in each games Goddess Icon when its made explicit.

i might count Petra for three houses. And not sure if Lucia really counts when Mia is very clearly the Tellius example.

Lucia is a swordsmaster, but she's not sworn to the sword or hunting or combat in any way. She's just one of Elincia's knights and close friend to the point of being like a sister.

Explain more on detail why Petra counts?

Because hunting and fighting is important to her people in a way that Crimeans are instead focused on knighthood.

Petra also respects other hunters/fighters like Shamir, is also an outsider so they relate on both being foreign born.

If you look at the chart she should have at least 2 marks higher than Lucia, and be even with Mia if not higher.

Good points. Now it is just a matter of deciding where to place them in the trope subgroups.

personally i'd move Petra to be a clear example, and maybe move Catherine and Lucia both to be elements of examples.

In a way Catherine seems to be a rehash, or updated version of Lucia (wears white, sworn to a liege, an insider known as great and loyal knight), but Lucia isn't a very strong example of the archetype (aspiring warrior, sworn to their fighting style or family/clan, potentially an outsider among the main group)

Stereotypical pegasus knight personality...whatever that means. Then again you can get that type of personality from the trio as well.

We can say the same thing about Ms. Unrequitable Love.

There is one thing that the Pegasus Knights have in common: They tend to be part of nobility as well. Granted, Erinys alone is the sole exception, but lack or holy blood or not, she'd end up being the Queen of Silesse even if she's not paired with Lewyn (and it's canon in Thracia 776), and this causes Fee to be part of Silesse nobility.

This would make Tana a partial part of the archetype, because she is part of nobility but still a member of the 'Whitewings' where she could execute a Triangle Attack. Although I can say that they could technically... overlap. (Sumia probably does not count because her marrying Chrom and becoming part of Ylisse nobility are not set in stone).

Bonus points if they have close relations to the Lord character (though they are not necessarily the Heroine).

The Whitewings for the most part tends to be more 'commoner' or 'soldier/mercenary' (though no less capable in combat).

Huh, now that gives me incentive to work on the draft soon.

Which brings me to something else that I have in mind: Tana doesn't belong in the "Heroine" section given how minimal they made her role in FE8 and her pairing is not set in stone as well (just like Sumia), but she could potentially belong here instead. Also what about Hinoka?

Now to wonder what else do they have in common...

That thing can overlap, however. Caeda herself doesn't have too big of a role in the original games, but there is an incentive/bonus uplifting scene if she survives to the end. Tana has that privilege as well, even if it's not 'to the total end', her exclusive scene was just in Ephraim's route and it's just 'near the end'. (And she'd still do it even if she's paired with Cormag or Marisa or Innes).

The 'not set in stone' thing that disqualified Sumia was not about being a Heroine, but more about what would make her part of nobility from her humble beginnings. If it's about Heroine, she totes fits, even if pairing with Chrom was not set in stone (she has the advantage of sharing a CG movie with Chrom and being the one who held the baby Lucina in the opening movie). If she didn't marry Chrom, then she wouldn't be a nobility unlike Erinys who despite not always gonna marry Lewyn (that can happen in Genealogy), would end up as the Queen of Silesse, therefore a nobility, even if she's not born to it.

Okay, let's see about Hinoka. She's a solo Pegasus Knight that can't do Triangle Attack, check. She's part of nobility, she's pretty much one of the top chains of Hoshido royalty, check (Subaki was a retainer so he's... not exactly a noble, and so does his daughter Caeldori).

OK, I guess she fits....

I dunno. I feel like if you want to downgrade Tana you could put her the honorable mention "characters that have traits of this archetype" in the Heroine section. The individual pegasus knight feels like a shoehorn. Pegasi are usually seen as rare so if you have one and you're not a knight chances are you're a noble anyway.

Not sure if it's really a thing as much as it is a spinoff of the trio. The same way the sometimes third cav is not a thing outside of the context of the duo (and even then the third cav has some relation to the duo, while the fourth pegasi may or may not).

Sumia-Cordelia is also not really a duo, they're a trio with Phila but Phila gets killed off in a story cutscene. Everything else about Phila makes her the Palla to their Est-Catria.

That will depend on what is the requirement of the Heroine. AFAIK, it's more 'you get an extra perk if you keep her/him alive throughout the game'. Maybe we should put that archetype on the sheets for checking.

Also, turns out that almost all of the Whitewings has commoner/soldier status. And there are other places where Pegasus breeding is commonplace or just being the place where all of your Pegasus Knights come in. Silesse, Ilia, Begnion, Hoshido all come to mind. So I do not think that Pegasi are always a rarity or nobility-exclusive, since there are kingdoms that can afford a Pegasus Knight squadron (and for the record, the original Whitewings aren't part of nobility anyway).

Likewise, this is why the duos like Sumia-Cordelia or Karin-Misha are just subversions and not likely going to be an example. They fit neither the solo or trio requirements (Doesn't have triangle attack, not part of nobility). I'm just pointing that out so people don't go out saying "But hey, what about Sumia-Cordelia?"

The 3rd cavalier is way more stretching out than the solo Pegasus Knight, because at least with the Solo Pegasus Knight, we can have THREE (or four) traits: Goes solo, no Triangle Attack, part of nobility, has quite relations with the Lord character (but not necessarily being the Heroine (Clair, Erinys, Fee, Hinoka))... Okay scratch that, maybe FIVE: Joining time. They always join early and at the latest, midway through the game. Sometimes they may even play part in teaching you how Flyers work (great movement and mobility, weak to archers), whereas the Whitewings are made to be the 'advanced' lesson of Flyers, because at first the game never taught you the existence of Triangle Attack.

Which means that the ones that are 'has elements, but not part of the archetype' would be (italicized parts are what disqualified them): Tana (close with Ephraim, being a Frelian noble since birth, part of the Pegasus Sisters with Vanessa and Syrene), Florina (close with Lyndis, by default an Ilian Mercenary, part of the Pegasus Sisters with Fiora and Farina), PoR!Elincia (pretty much that game's heroine and has great links with Ike, is a noble, part of the 'Pegasus Sisters' with Tanith and Marcia) and as stated, Elincia only becomes this in Radiant Dawn.

I will agree that thus far I can't seem to find something to link together the 3rd cav aside of 'being the third wheel', but I think that the Solo Pegasus Knights have what it takes to be its own archetype. Call it 'The Caeda' or something? (Just so Caeda is not always referred as the Heroine even if she's the OG heroine?) Imagine you mix-matching the Blue Blood status of a Maria (without being a little sister and being in distress), the unequal partnership/companionship of Julian or Lena, then give her a Pegasus that goes solo.

All right. So I might as well try it.

The Caeda

Laconic version:

• The Caeda: A female member of the royalty (since the start or soon) who rides on the Pegasus Knight solo (not flanked with similarly-classed friends) and teaches you about flying units. May have close relations with the Lord, even if they're not always the Heroine.

The Caeda is one of the earlier units you encounter (although sometimes she could be as late as early-mid game). They go around in battle riding a Pegasus and stabbing people with spear from the air. They you about the utility of an airborne unit: They're fast, agile, covers a lot of of the map, but is especially vulnerable to archers. Characters of this archetype tend to be of noble birth (or will eventually become one), and a majority of them may have taken interest or have close relations with the Lord character, although they're not always of the Heroine archetype above.

They serve as your earlier flying unit, until you recruit the Pegasus Trio (who are mostly not of nobility) and learn to utilize their teamwork (or not, sometimes a game (or a portion of it) didn't have a trio of Pegasus Knights), therefore a Caeda can never do a Triangle Attack within their game, they fly solo for the most part (but they'll still mingle with friends within the army, even the Pegasus Trio who more likely had commoner backgrounds). However, their early availability means that they have a LOT of room to grow and they rarely ever become obsolete. The Caeda might not be able to utilize the more advanced Triangle Attack, but they can still hold their own.

Playable characters of this archetype: Caeda (Shadow Dragon and Mystery of the Emblem), Clair (Gaiden/Shadows of Valentia), Erinys^note She was born commoner, but is eventually set to become the Queen of Silesse regardless of who she married and Fee (Genealogy of the Holy War), Elincia (Radiant Dawn)^note She is not part of the archetype during Path of Radiance, where she was part of the Pegasus Trio and was one of the last units to join , Hinoka (Fates), Ingrid (Three Houses)

Playable characters that only has elements of this archetype: Hermina^note Despite being Fee's substitute and eventually the sole Pegasus Knight, she lacked the Blue Blood prerequisite of the archetype, she's just a soldier from Silesse., Karin^note She is the first encountered Pegasus Knight and mandatory recruit (Misha was optional), and without any trio, she can't do Triangle Attack either. However, she is not of the Silesse royalty, and the existence of Misha means that she's not a solo Pegasus Knight. Not to mention she mostly had no further interest in Leif aside of serving under him., Shanna^note She is the earliest recruited Pegasus Knight and could become a royalty should she marry Roy. However, the marriage was optional and she's already part of the Pegasus Trio with Thea and Juno (Binding Blade), Florina^note She's also the first recruited Pegasus Knight and especially close to Lyndis and a potential bride for Hector. However, being the bride of Hector (which would make her an Ostian royalty) was optional and not set in stone, and she is already part of the Pegasus Trio with Fiora and Farina (Blazing Blade), Tana^note She is particularly close with Ephraim and there is a perk of keeping her alive in his route (see the Heroine section above). She is also already a Frelian noble since birth. Unfortunately, she's also part of the Pegasus Trio with Vanessa and Syrene. (Sacred Stones), Sumia^note She is a very strong candidate to be Chrom's bride (see the Heroine section above), and she can't do a Triangle Attack. However, not only the existence of Cordelia means that she's not a solo flyer, she is not a noble by birth and could only become one via an optional marriage, thus ruling her out. (Awakening

• Blade On A Stick: Goes without saying that they prefer spears over swords, though some also carry a sword as a backup.
• Blue Blood: A pretty much high-class Pegasus Knight. Even Erinys, who started out as a commoner, would end up becoming one since she would become the Queen of Silesse regardless of whom she marries.
• Boring, but Practical: As opposed to the Pegasus Sisters, they lacked the Combination Attack and 'obvious friendship link/traits'. However, the attack tends to be considered Awesome, yet Impractical and just by having them alone means you can still put other two members with varying utilities and they still do the job as a flyer just fine, their fullest potential already unleashed as long as you just deploy them.
• Fragile Speedster: It's a common trait for Pegasus Knights and they'll teach you just that, having innately high Skill and Speed, although their Strength stat may suffer.
• Lady of War: The primary example of the series, flying around and swinging and stabbing spears from the sky look graceful and deadly in the same time.
• Mage Killer: Again, as Pegasus Knights, it makes them perfect to strike on mages with their innate high Res.
• Modest Royalty: They get along just fine with the more common-born Whitewings. Even if they're solo flyers, they are not lone wolves.
• Royals Who Actually Do Something: They may be nobles, but they simply choose not to stand idle when others are also fighting for the good of the land.
• Skill Gate Character: They are usually the one who teaches you the ropes about flyers and being a Pegasus Knight: Great mobility, spear-fighting, avoid archers at all cost (this is before you get the more advanced flyers: Either the Pegasus Trio and their Triangle Attack, or the Wyvern Duo with their bulkier flying stats)... It helps that they're always available on early game, and at worst just mid game.

The Sibling-Worshipper

Laconic:

• The Sibling-Worshipper: Someone who's wee bit too obsessed with their siblings, most likely their big brother.

Fire Emblem is no stranger with the trope Brother–Sister Incest. In fact, back in the days, they really like to give out such subtexts within their game, mostly represented by this archetype. The Sibling-Worshipper is a character, most likely a little sibling or sister, who adores their elder sibling, most likely big brother, way too much. They held their elder sibling in such a high pedestal that any suitors or those who interact with this character will find themselves talking about this elder sibling, or hearing the character ramble how great their sibling is, or saying to their elder siblings that they don't need anyone else, only the elder sibling is needed for them. They sometimes overlap with the Maria, but they do not always take the healer role and a Maria usually did not take their adoration to their elder siblings too far. The elder sibling usually recognizes how much loved they are, but tends to focus on somewhere else, rarely did they ever fully reciprocrate, and thus the incest image of the series did have covers.

Playable characters of this archetype: Lachesis (Genealogy of the Holy War, Clarine (Binding Blade), Priscilla (Blazing Blade), Eirika (Sacred Stones), Leo ^note A gender-inverted example, Leo had a lot of hots towards his big sister Camilla, he just rarely expressed it and Camilla ^note Age-inverted. Camilla dotes on her little sibling Corrin way too much, and can get away with marriage thanks to being Not Blood Siblings

Playable characters that only has elements of this archetype: Olwen ^note She has a certain adoration towards her big brother Reinhardt, but she kept it on a more level-headed rank instead of going overblown about it, and in the end, however, Reinhardt became a Broken Pedestal to her. (Thracia 776)

• Berserk Button: Talking crap about their elder sibling is generally not a good idea... or even to kill that sibling.
• Big Brother Worship: Hoo boy. They like to think that their big bro (or sis) is the best ever and nothing you say can convince them otherwise!
• Brother–Sister Incest: It's only shown in subtexts and such, but they might as well be the poster girl/boy of the franchise about this trope.
• Character Exaggeration: Believe it or not, their traits are not always about being sibling-worshippers, they can have other traits they can claim on their own. Unfortunately, sometimes they tend to be vulnerable to Poe's Law, thus their Big Brother Worship tends to get focused the most by the fandom.
• Clingy Jealous Girl: At times, if said elder sibling decided to focus their attention to another, they may admit for being jealous, but they still have enough standards to not try to Murder the Hypotenuse.
• Little Sister Heroine: A majority of the members of this archetype are little sisters being obsessed with their big bro.

P.S: I almost called this 'The Lachesis', but I thought that perhaps we ought to rename 'The Catria' into 'The Unrequited Maiden/Lover'...

Any thoughts? Also, note and spoiler tags in Discussion pages suck.

sure.

also any love for the sword lady archetype?

MayIncon should be upping the draft soon...

Byleth is not an Ogma. Byleth's father is very much like Greil, but Byleth themselves are not that much like Ike. They're a mix of a lot of things.

They are both a Lord type and an Avatar type overall.

The have a merc father, and were raised without much knowledge of politics and nobles like Ike.

They are the end result of a breeding program to create someone that can embody an old god like Robin.

They are heir to a super powerful bloodline and have a Tiki-like figure communicate through their subconscious and possess/fuse with them like Micaiah.

They look like a stern Marth.

They have conflicting allegiances that lead to branching paths like Corrin.

etc. etc.

When you get to 17 games in, a lot of characters have one or two elements borrowed or reinterpreted, but Byleth is not an Ogma to the extent Ike is, despite having some traits in common with Ike.

I was thinking of the swordlady archetype like Ayra and Lyn, not sure how we can fit Devdan and Gregor into that.

Are there any explicit examples other than Marianne and Noire?

That's the problem with Marianne and Noire. There's not enough example of painfully shy and 'think they're cursed'. 'Painfully shy' alone does exist, like Tine or even Neimi or to an extent Sakura. But they're not the 'thinking they're cursed' type and merely 'shy' character alone doesn't seem enough to form an archetype.

About the sword lady, let's try giving out your proposed requirements and see if we can go anywhere beyond 'female sword mistress'.

I feel like some of these archetypes are too young and maybe need more iterations of the game to have more clear examples.

I do feel like the female sword mistress is a thing as maybe a subtype of navarre. People like Ayra, Fir, Marisa, Mia, Hana who live by the sword and are constantly trying to improve their skills and looking for new challenges. Typically less stoic than either the proper navarre or another swordsman that they're somehow related to. Karla, and Say'ri may fit as well.

Maybe Petra fits there also as a hunter. and potentially Athena also?

Higher than average likelihood of being a different nation, or different fantasy counterpart culture than the main lord, whether or not they have an accent or particular way of speaking.

'Live by the sword and constantly trying to improve skills'.

Doesn't this apply to Guy too?

At any rate, all we need is a good enough difference between this and Navarre. I mean, which Navarre aren't about "Gonna be the best and looking for challenge"?

At any rate, I would like it if someone tries to make a write up about it and I'll see what I can do.

revisiting the swordlady for maybe an excel sheet test? candidates like Ayra, Fir, Karla, Marisa, Mia, Hana, Athena, Petra. Not sure if the Warriors personality stoic / genki girl should be equal weight or one more than the other.

• Class
  • 4 - Myrmidon/Swordsmaster class
  • 3 - Swift Sword class (include thief/assassin etc.)
  • 2 - Critical Hit class generally
  • 1 - Non-Crit Class
• Appearance
  • 3 - Long Dark Hair
  • 2 - Long or Dark Hair but not both
  • 1 - Regular appearance
• Origin
  • 4 - Foreigner from a somewhat East Asian inspired area
  • 3 - Foreigner from a non-Asian inspired area
  • 2 - Unclear origin, but an outsider among her group
  • 1 - Same place / blends in with the general cast
• Warrior's Personality
  • 2 - Stoic and focused on battle and honing her skills or Tomboyish Genki Girl sub type who loves to fight and wants to be the best
  • 1 - Doesn't particularly focus on her fighting skills
• Relationships
  • 3 - Comes from a family of swordfighters, and may have a particular relationship with a brother or father figure
  • 2 - Greatly admires other warriors that she's not related to
  • 1 - Doesn't relate to other fighters on a cultural or personal level

Hey! Thanks for giving the requirement points. Let me work on that in a sheet. When I get results, I'll contact you.

oh also, i saw you did a sheet for the sword lady. should we add them to the page.

Objection accepted. You can change that and also in the 3 houses page.

Caspar and Hilda or Raphael are too much of a stretch to be an explicit duo. Same goes for Charlotte and Arthur or Rinkah. Well if it doesn't count it doesn't I guess.

I dunno, I was just going along with what was edited by someone else in the main Three Houses pages. Before I added the thing on Bord and Cord, someone else DID in that other page.

Also, acrobox...:

• First, that's Blue Lions, not Blue Eagles.
• Second... the Blue Lions 'childhood friend circle' is... well FOUR, including Dimitri.

my bad blue eagles are ravenclaw from harry potter.

the support i'm referring to is the special bond useful diagram here "https://twitter.com/volascia/status/1165351855909523456/photo/1" The best friends include dmitri storywise, but they're kind of a trio that is loyal to him, rather than him being part of the band. They even have the Red Blue Yellow Chromatic Arrangement thing going with their hair.

Hmmm... You know, we may need to lay out the rules of these duo archetypes. Like, what qualifies them, and how many qualifiers do they need to fulfill in order to actually pass as an example? Let's try it, before anyone else tend to get the wrong idea and adds examples that are actually not or 'just overly stretching it'.

Agreed. Let's start with this one first.

archetypes are subjective but there a a couple of things that i think make them. its hard to say what or how many of these qualifiers they need but its a more amorphous "in the spirit of"

• Class
  • Weapons
  • Skills
  • Proficiencies
  • Stat bases/growths
• Profile
  • Backstory
  • Personality (either overall, or a defining quirk)
  • Role / Affiliation / Rank
  • Endgame ending
• Recruitment
  • Method
  • Time period (early, mid, endgame)
• Aesthetic
  • Class again sometimes dictates this
  • Color scheme
  • Gender
  • Age
• Relationships
  • With individuals (sometimes tied to personality or rank/role)
  • With other recurring archetypes
• Comparisons to previous versions of the archetype to other games (more of the 'in the spirit of')
  • Direct reprise
  • Direct twist/subversion
  • Fusing or swapping elements with other archetypes
  • Any of the above that change based on POV character in games with multiple Lords or routes.
  • Number of games its been featured in, if it feels like a pattern or a coincidence bearing in mind that there are about 30-50 new named characters in the 13 or so non-remake entries in the series, the majority of which are "cool and quirky anime teens and twenty somethings."

How many of these you need or which ones are most important i feel vary. Coming up with hard rules beyond just a general consensus of 'in the spirit of' becomes a pointless and arbitrary exercise.

Those are interesting things. I would like to take it and see how much I can apply it to the archetypes. Care to give one example?

You can use this on the swordlady archetype that you just made days ago to see how it goes. If you are asking for something that already existed then I propose Cain and Abel or Jeorge

So here are the basic requirement of Cain and Abel in my opinion.

• Cavalier

• Red/Green colors

• Show up early game

• Contrasting personalities that are highlighted in their Support

• Slightly different base stat and growth rate, but similar stat total

I'd say they need to fill out at least 4 out of 5 requirements, since a third of the accepted Cain and Abel duos fail at 1 point.

Cain and Abel don't talk to each other much; Luke and Roderick are blue and green, Alec and Naoise have wildly different stat spread, Oscar and Kieran have different availability and thus different base stats, Kaze and Saizo are ninjas; Mae and Boey are mages.

Does service matter also to Cavs? As in that they both assist the same Lord on most counts (except Oscar and Kieran were formerly on the same team, but Oscar has since started working for Ike, and Kaze and Saizo work for Corrin and Ryoma respectively)

Technically everyone in your army is in service to the Lord, so that's not a relevant distinction.

A problem with my requirement is how do we consider Cecille. She is red to complement Roderick's green. The two can support each other and do have a Red Oni, Blue Oni dynamic. Both join roughly at the same time.

The new Altean recruits seem like they came out of nowhere just to replace Cain and Abel in FE 3 because the former has been promoted and the latter quit from the service, the new recruits dont even have lines. FE 12 however makes it seem that Cecille is the third wheel to Luke and Roderick.

Third wheel Cain/Abel seems like a recurring element but seemed like not enough to make a distinction. Let's see who were third wheels of their leagues: Cecile, Robert, Lowen, Franz, (sigh) Makalov, Frey, Kagero. Okay, that seems to be it.

There is enough members, but there doesn't seem to be similar tropes to link them together.

makalovs not even a third wheel cav. Makalov and Astrid are another duo.

So how does everyone think about my metrics for Cain and Abel

re: service - i still think its important that they have a tighter bond than simply being a foil pair. Most supports highlight how characters can be foils to each other.

For the cav duos, most are brothers, childhood friends, or came up in the same unit/serving the same lord, even if all units are serving the main lord by end game technically.

These criterias doesn't seem like something we should discuss here lest it gets too long, if we keep going with the other archetypes as well.

i like it.

Fitting.

• I believe she's the only professional dancer of the cast, and she keeps her timeskip costume in dancer form.
• She's also the flirt, like most non-mystical dancers (bar Olivia whose shyness reads as an intentional inversion)
• She's also the only commoner among the Black Eagles, and used performance (song and dance at the opera) to get herself out of poverty. Many non-mystical dancers are commoners, orphans, or otherwise had rough childhoods that make their livelihoods by dancing either professionally or as traveling street performers.

I suggest that we also fill out descriptions and tropes in regards of the Dancer archetypes. I mean, I think we can do more than just redirecting to the Classes page.

did a write up. feel free to edit.

Kindly appreciated, thanks.

You’re right in the sense that in terms of gameplay reasons, Felix doesn’t follow the usual requirements that a Navarre archetype uses. However, when you look outside the gameplay and consider the character traits of Felix, he is a variation of the Navarre.

• You note that Felix’s conversations are about his training, like Mia, but I feel that is just the developer’s attempt to highlight Felix prefers to follow the path of the Myrmidons, something also reflected gameplay wise. It is also worth noting that a Navarre also usually has a desire to hone his skills.
• His preferences to defect are Dexterity and Swords, which are usually the strongest gameplay strengths of a Navarre archetype.
• Felix is called out by Dorothea as unsociable, something I feel is a key defining character trait of a Navarre. Most Navarres, at least when initially conversed with by other characters, are generally rough in their conversations.
• There is also the matter of his ending on routes other than Azure Moon, which is a Where Are They Now epilogue, and very much seals his deal as a Navarre.
  • EDIT: Removed ending because spoilers didn't work for some reason. PM for details or Google for details.
• You also note the lack of enemy recruitment for Felix, but Lon'qu doesn't need a recruitment and is still considered Awakening's Navarre archetype.

While Felix doesn’t have all the character traits of a Navarre (Code of Honour is notably missing, and of course the lack of enemy recruitment), he is nevertheless the character that is the closest to being the Navarre archetype in 3H. I can offer additional reasons if necessary.

All of Felix’s Support Conversations (Spoilers) (Broken link due to the way article discussions work, get rid of the unnecessarily junk in the URL when opening).

I'd agree that circumstances of recruitment kinda go out the window in this game because of both the house and customization systems.

In most FE games you play as either the leader of a Kingdom or an Alliance, and over the course of the game end up taking out an Empire and/or a Church (or cult of extremists that believe in dragons and or evil gods)

Here you pick which of those four to play as and they each come with certain archetypes implicitly baked in (via post timeskip canon classes, skill preferences, and personalities) So it's harder to pin anything on usual recruitment requirements or timing of when they join.

Lon'qu, however, had this one trait: When he's recruited, he has a Killing Edge as his initial weapon. The story had it that he was almost going to be a recruitable enemy, until 'Marth' (Lucina) knocked him out off screen and took his place. So there is that element.

Also, being unsociable and edgy are NOT a requirement of Navarre. Just take a look at Guy, he's pretty much a sociable swordsman (if a bit awkward). Moreso than Karel, the definition of brooding and edge that probably would make Felix wince. If that was your definition of a Navarre, that's nice and all, but that isn't the current general consensus of what a Navarre meant, thus far it's "recruitable enemy that carries a killer weapon/skill, usually of the swordsman class", not "brooding swordsman". We already listed out non-Swordsmen that ended up being a Navarre (because they were enemies and start out with a Killer weapon), like Aran or Jamke. So at the moment, overly stretching out without touching the cores wouldn't get it accepted.

(Trust me, I had thought back then Arthur and Charlotte from Fates are 'close enough' to be Bord and Cord, but that got rejected. It happens)

If you wish to discuss about how your traits could be implemented to a Navarre, feel free to start a discussion over here and let's see how others think, we can iron this out.

Character-wise, I always felt that the Navarre archetype had awkward social conversations when conversing with other characters, if not being unsociable. Some of Felix's conversations, especially with other characters he's conversing with for the first time, are usually awkward. Guy, as you said, can sometimes have moments of awkwardness despite his sociability than most characters in the Navarre archetype.

If the Navarre archetype's definition is what set in stone, could we branch this into another type? Problem is the other members and other requirements that could shape this new archetype, of course.

That would take a new discussion topic (this one is already long as is). Once we get around ironing it, we can display it in a new topic.

At any rate, I think I did find something that made me accept Felix being a Navarre: his Crest of Fraldarius. It basically serves as a mini-Killing Edge, randomly raises his attack more often, but not as damaging as a Killing Edge.

There's nothing traditional yet so far but then again people has just started the game.

We do confirm the token flirt, though: Sylvain... Hang on, two, in fact. The other one is Lorenz.

And the Big First Choice also confirms three Mutually Exclusive Party Members/Arran-Samson: Hubert, Dedue and Hilda.

i'd agree with those.

Despite character customization meaning you can make anyone any class with any weapon, how d people feel about Raphael as The Draug.

He's big, friendly, strong, and common born, and his stats/growths/strengths make him naturally inclined to be either an armor knight or a fighter.

A character has certain set goals that could shape their archetype. (I mean, sure, you CAN make Raphael into a frickin' Warlock for example, but if you do not choose Golden Deer, Claude will more likely set Raphael as an Armor Knight or Grappler (in my case, it was Grappler), or if you do... Raphael might suggest changing goals into Armor Knight or Grappler). Still, lemme know further on Raph. When the trailers were out, I DID see him as "Yeah, if archetypes are still used, this guy is SO Draug."

In Blue Lions' case, Dedue is an intimidating looking Gentle Giant that actually offered to be an Armor Knight (and has a trait of increased defense if he chose to Wait). Not sure about his Draug qualities about being a common-born, but he did come from the more 'treated as barbaric' Duscur group. So I'm not sure.

Mercedes had strong religious inclinement, natural desire to be a Bishop, and is the typical motherly/sisterly character... So I am supposing her to be a Lena, while the 'Little Sister Healer'/Maria might end up being Flayn, but I'm not so sure about that.

Proposing Hubert and Lysithea as the anti-social black mages, and Shamir as the Jeorge (she already has a defined class so this would be easier).

EDIT: Didn't catch that info on Lysithea, (was playing Eagles) thanks.

Lysithea i would agree with.

Hubert feels more like a heroic Dark Wizard/Ephidel. Or potentially just a straight Ephidel if you don't choose Eagles, since he can't be recruited to other houses.

The 'asshole mage' i feel goes to Linhardt. He's the one that's aloof, sharp tongued and sarcastic, and always talking about books and research, the way others may be always concerned about their studies or trying new potions and spells. That makes him much more in line with Erk, Lute, Soren, Miriel etc. People who would rather be working than socializing in most cases.

Hubert isn't an asshole in the same way since his antisocial tendencies are straight up intimidating and manipulating people, and his devotion isn't to magic but to his master in the way a Gharnef or an Ephidel is. You could make the case that that makes him "Soren" to Edlegarde's "Ike" but all that deconstruction of both Soren and Arlen ends up making him fit more on the antagonist page (despite being playable) because he crosses lines that they don't. He doesn't give the same "groan" when he has to interact with the wackier characters. He often goes after them to make sure they're either helping Edlegarde or staying out of her way.

On the other hand, I wouldn't agree that Lysithea is the antisocial mage. There are more cases that she is more of a Linde, because:

• Her Insufferable Genius entry was mostly because of accidents, she really didn't mean to belittle her peers at first or shoving away other people.
• There are Lindes that also used dark magic or classified as using one (Ophelia)
• Most importantly, the You Killed My Father angle. She got her parents Forced to Watch about her experimentation and most likely killed by Those Who Slithers In The Dark. In addition, she can also serve as a deconstruction to The Gift usually given to Linde characters: She's talented in magic all right, but that was because of the painful experimentation that would kill her. And despite so, she tried her best to stay a Plucky Girl until her last breaths.
• She was so talented that her interests wasn't about studying more magic or holing herself up for that purpose. She focuses more on sweets and cute things.

Additionally... well... it might be just me but... Annette might end up being the first female Merric, she pretty much got the cheery positive attitude and attunement to wind magic and the 'smaller than others' comparison, she admits to be more of a hard worker that had to study more (as seen in the support with Lysithea, who's more of a natural genius)... but then there's her gender.

if annette fits the bill otherwise i dont see why gender should be a restriction.

Erk, Lute, Soren, Miriel all swapped genders back and forth. You've had Sully as a Red Cav. and Titania as an Oifey.

say Linhardt as the antisocial black mage, Annette a the social black mage, lysithea as the linde?

I think it's too broad of a category.

well she literally modeled herself off of Marth.

Only in looks.

looks mostly okay, but i'm not sure about leaving out Scarlet in Fates who is quite clearly The Minerva, in favor of Camilla (who has some aspects of it) and Beruka (who isn't at all)

and Cormag who is the dark clad guy, but doesn't have a red clad girl in his game in Sacred Stones.

It always seemed like the defector from homeland was more important than the junior/senior thing. You could make a case that Cormag's "senior" in your dynamic includes Valter.

The defector part is the core concept of the archetype. The red and black dynamic exists sure, that said Cherche and Gerome are not from the enemy nation.

Cormag has Glen as the Red Wyvern and senior but should enemy NP Cs count here?

I did say that the defector case is 'most common' scenario. My proposal is that because the term is now 'Wyvern Duo', it has to be a two-character pair like Cain and Abel and the defector part is toned down, in favor of 'senior/junior' hierarchy. This is why I didn't include Cormag and Scarlet at first. Especially Scarlet, I'll get to her later.

Still if you insist that 'defector' has to play part no matter what, then all we need to do was to just remove Cherche and Gerome (who fulfilled the senior/junior part, but had no defection part, unless you consider being foreigners who 'migrated' to Ylisse because they hailed from Virion's home. Probably not)

About Cormag/Glen/Valter: I probably would say just Cormag/Glen. Both Cormag and Valter can count as 'Dark/Black', so Glen has got to be the one taking care of the Red. And yes, we did have a case of enemy NPC: Altenna and Arion. Or if you count this too, pre-New Mystery Minerva and Michalis (and hey, Glen also considered defecting before Valter screwed everything). About same-sex term, well the Fates one will have the same issue as well.

Okay, now going onto Scarlet. The problem with Scarlet is that if this Archetype is still called 'Minerva', she'd fit (although Wikia seemed to reject her). However, because it's 'Wyvern Duo'... she didn't have a fellow pair who rode Wyvern. That is her most crippling thing in this new definition. You could say that she DID get into one team with Camilla in Revelations, but then she bit the dust quickly enough. But then, I'm not sure how you interpret the senior/junior part between Camilla and Scarlet (drawing senior/junior part with Beruka is much easier).

Can we make a 'special exception' that it's both Camilla and Scarlet, but because of Fates' story structure, you can only get one of them in one scenario (Birthright or Conquest), the not-recruited one playing part of Michalis/Arion/Glen? My confusion about whether I should use that exception or not is why I hesitated on Scarlet.

Regarding Scarlet, it is because she isn't technically Nohrian, I thinks, both in allegiance and association. I don't think she gets a friendly line with any of them. That's also why the Wiki rejected her as the Minerva in the first place.

So what's the verdict on Scarlet, then? Yes or no?

Also remember that we don't always have to follow the Wikia to the tee.

its semantics whether she's officially Nohrian or not.

She's expected to side with Garon. She decides to rebel instead. Seems pretty clear to me.

Camilla and Beruka only defect in relevation, where every single character on both sides 'defects' to join Corrin and Azura.

Aren't there others who joined in the prologue only to appear much later?

Athena is the very last to rejoin, though. You regain Wrys, Caeda and Merric earlier.

i feel like Florina is an Est at core, but with some elements of Heroine. I'm not sure she's enough of a Heroine that she should be listed under it tho.

Florina is not an Est because of her join time and potentially high base stat in Eliwood/Hector modes.

rephrase. Florina is more clearly the "Youngest Pegasus Sister" Est.

I agree, she is not a Late Game Magikarp Power "Est".

my instinct says no. To use an analogy, Cornelius feels more like an 'Obi Wan' kind of character. Rudolf is more a 'Darth Vader'

it's more important that they're some type of mentor figure, rather than literally their biological parent.

Firstly, Minerva would need a fixing. At this point, she's pretty much 'Female Dracoknight in Red'. Which doesn't always fit (and kind of tempts to slap in every Dracoknights there, even when they're single). We need to find out what's more than that within Minerva. Same goes to this 'darker Minerva'.

We need more than: "Dracoknight from other nation" "Wears red" "Female" and one more factor. If you can differentiate that with this 'Darker Minerva', then you need to find a name aside of Michalis (because his name has been used in an antagonistic archetype). My question is... why Heath? There have been male Dracoknights preceding Heath: Zeiss, Dean and Areone. And... well, none of them came from Archanea, and Areone started out antagonistic so he can't be used to name as such.

This may be stretching out, but I could suggest one male Dracoknight that has reached notoriety that may be used as an archetype namer despite him joining so super late and not exactly from Archanea or Jugdral: Haar. But I'm afraid he could be a bit too meme driven. Or we could just go ahead and say 'Wyvern Duo', in the same vein as we named 'Pegasus Sisters'.

I think we're quite OK with the splits. Remember, even the Wikia decided to separate Jagen-Oifey, and Lena-Maria. So I don't see the need to merge everything, otherwise things would be too cluttered in certain places and some might get a designation that wouldn't fit on whole.

Well?

I'd defer to you for any thoughts on fixing Minerva and "Haar" Especially when it comes to Jugdral games i'm not too family (really only a fan of games that have been officially localized)

I only hesitate to call the Wyvern Knights a duo because there aren't always two, and even if there are, they don't always relate to each other that much.

As for the splits, it's well understood that Oifey is a subtype of Jagen and its rare that a game give you both.

For Lena-Maria I'm not opposed to splitting them back up since you usually do have both. I only combined them because sometimes they share or trade traits.

For "darker Minerva", Zeiss could work. Of course if we can find other traits to differentiate them the better. Why should the trope namer be from Archanea for this one? Granted Michalis is an inspiration for the divergence but still..

As for Lena and Maria, I don't know, since even those two overlap at many points.

Also, permission to add “Flanderization” to the Catria topic?

-