Character pronoun and identity discussion

Yeah, I think we should address each incarnation with their pronouns. So 13 is she/her, but 1-12 is he/him, etc

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That sounds right, and does sound like the same situation as the Eternals. The only difference is that you don't such get clear labels for Eternal 'incarnations' - as there's no regeneration-specific number or nickname (and no real personality shift).

So "When Ajak returned in the 2008 series, he was envious of his replacement", "At the end of the Crisis Crossover, Ajak confronted her betrayers" and "Ajak has spent their million-year existence as the most devout worshipper of the alien space gods" could all co-exist on one page.

I don't see that as a major issue, as pages should be written for casual readers, so we need to explain a bit about the premise in the intro anyway.

Using the pronouns that match their specific incarnations sound fine to me. (For the record, I'm referencing both the Time Lords and Eternals.)

I noticed that over on Characters.Borderlands Atlas, Lor from the Borderlands series hasn't had his character sheet updated (thanks to a comment on the discussion page).

He's introduced in Borderlands 3 using she/her pronouns and going by Lorelei (which is still listed as his name on the character page), but with a great deal of Ambiguous Gender Identity (invoked, as he's voiced by transmasc Ciarán Strange) and a semi-hidden ECHO log where he talks about transitioning. By New Tales from the Borderlands he's transitioned and goes by Lor.

I just thought I'd swing by here and get it set in stone that he/him (the character entry uses he and they interchangeably) and changing the name are both acceptable?

I'd say that's acceptable. We should probably mention his deadname somewhere though, so that readers who have only played Borderlands 3 know what character we're talking about.

Yeah, that's fine to change his name and pronouns. From what I can tell, he now seems to be referred to with masculine pronouns in-universe too (EDIT: if that helps, I recall seeing some people mention things like that with other characters). I also agree with on mentioning his deadname somewhere.

Edited by RandomTroper123 on May 19th 2023 at 1:45:32 AM

Thirding both and

Hi everyone, I just want to ask a quick question, why does the Characters.Fullmetal Alchemist Envy use they/them to refer to Envy? The series uses he/him, is there any particular reason?

Edited by SoyValdo7 on May 20th 2023 at 1:58:22 PM

Well, see the mentioned Ambiguous Gender below, Envy is a shapeshifter with No Biological Sex, though if Envy addresses themselves with "he" we should probably stick to it as well.

Edited by Amonimus on May 20th 2023 at 11:06:13 AM

I've updated Lor's character sheet entry. I've left the picture as is because I'm pressed for time, but it might be worth updating.

Re: Envy: I don't speak Japanese but from what I have read on it through the years, the character doesn't use gendered pronouns and the mangaka has apparently shrugged off an attempt to nail down a concrete gender identity (per this tumblr post)

Other characters use he/him in English (I don't know if Envy does, been a long while since my last rewatch). However, the manga came out in 2001, and the newer anime in 2009. In the canon-divergent 2003 adaptation, the character is definitely he/him. And that is on top of the genderless slug true form that IIRC has been called 'it'. So I think they/them, while never used in the work itself, is an attempt at wrangling all this (plus the aforementioned other stuff in Ambiguous Gender) together.

Agreed that if Envy uses masculine pronouns self-referentially in the English version then there would be a good case to change. This is an English language wiki.

I remember Envy being brought up a while ago, I think during a discussion on how a lot of series — especially older ones — tend to default to using masculine pronouns for characters that are otherwise nonbinary due to they/them not being considered as an alternative when they were written and/or localized, and how it's only recently that audiences have begun to question and/or challenge this. In some cases the author has admitted that had the story been written in/updated for modern times they'd change things, in other cases not.

IIRC Japanese pronoun use is tricky so it's not like we can really check to see what pronouns Envy uses in the original, either... or can we?

Edited by Arawn999 on May 21st 2023 at 1:26:53 AM

it's a lot easier to avoid using pronouns altogether in japanese; here's what their pixiv dictionary entry says

中性的な容姿・服装をしており性別は不明。一人称には「このエンヴィー」という独特な言い回しを使う。

Their appearance and clothing are androgynous, and their gender is unknown. When referring to themselves in first-person, they uniquely say "this Envy".

using "this Envy" rather than a pronoun with gendered implications is a very deliberate choice, i imagine. based on that, i agree it's likely that the english localization went with he/him more out of convenience and due to the era rather than deciding on a definitive gender for them

For example, didn't the recent re-release of the Soul Eater manga change Crona's pronouns from he/him to they/them?

no matter which set of pronouns we go with, it might be useful to have some sort of disclaimer on the character pages mentioning this bit of history with localizers using he/him pronouns for textually nonbinary characters, rather than they/them

it might only apply to Chrona and Envy, though i'm sure there's others

the only reason im hesitant to agree on they/them for Envy is that it runs afoul of the rule to use whatever pronouns the official localization uses... which in this case would be the (probably improper) he/him.

I think I recall there's been some cases where we've decided to ignore what the official translation's done in cases where it's deemed improper, Crona being one example.

If the localization policy takes precedent, we can always include an Adaptational Gender Identity point to cover the differences.

I'm not sure if that's actually allowed, though.

also, pronouns aren't necessarily tied to gender, i.e. someone can use he/him and still be nonbinary, and while the translators probably weren't thinking of it in that regard that's something we can note down for Adaptational Gender Identity as well

Eh, I dunno what should be done with the pronouns, but troping "English translations used he/him because the singular 'they' wasn't as universally known/accepted back then" as Adaptational Gender Identity feels like a shoehorn to me.

Yeah, I'm aware of that; I don't see myself as a guy for instance but am still fine using he/him because it doesn't make me too uncomfortable (though I prefer they/them). I'm not too plugged into FMA so I didn't know that much about Envy as a character besides what's been brought up here and just assumed that the localization was a case of using maleness as a default given that we're talking about a work from an era where nonbinary representation in western media was incredibly scarce.

Looking through Envy's page though, yeah this is definitely more complex than Adaptational Gender Identity. So in that case, I'd say that the point in Ambiguous Gender Identity should be sufficient in covering the situation if we stick to the localization's pronouns:

Edited by bowserbros on May 21st 2023 at 6:50:30 AM

It's allowed if we decide to allow it. That's why we have these discussions. (Morpheus Duvall from Resident Evil is one of the cases listed in the header that resolved that way.)

I don't think I knew about Envy using "this Envy" as a pronoun in Japanese, but I think that validates using they/them.

I'm slightly leaning he/him because that's what the English-speaking audience would be familiar with, but as we've seen in the Claudine discussion, the localization shouldn't always take precedence...

I think that'd be more in favor of going without pronouns, as there are people who prefer to be referred to that way.

That's reasonable, too - I actually think if "this Envy" is as unique as that quote makes it sound that some set of neopronouns would be the nearest equivalent, but I'm cautious about doing much creative interpretation. "They/them" is the best default, "that one" or "nouns only" might be okay, anything beyond that is definitely too far into troping fanon.