Sh vs. S, Alliteration or Not?

I think so.

I guess I'll mark in here what I'm removing from Alliterative Name (may overlap with Albert 3105's list):

Should we reorganize the folders into sounds? I am neither for nor against this, just fielding for opinions. In case people think we should, here's a list from the C folder of "soft C sounds" or "S sounds". I suppose the organization would get really confusing with things like /tʃ/ ("ch").

• Ceiling Smash
• Celebrity Star
• Celebrity Survivor
• Censorship by Spelling
• City Slicker
• Civvie Spandex
• Cyber Cyclops

Call the sound-based alliteration, something like Audiological Alliteration?

Even if it's not sound-based alliteration, I like the visual one...

Regarding trope-names, while not alliterative themselves, I would suggest "Phonetic Alliteration" and "Visual Alliteration".

Indeed, and I understood it well enough—to clarify, I was concerned that some might have read it as "both, not either", followed by either skipping the examples (since the statement seemed clear) or misreading them (due to cognitive bias as a result of having the "both" definition in mind). Using "or"—as the option initially read, if I recall correctly—would have been much clearer, I think.

Heh, I'm in a similar position, save that I'm surprised that the winner got so many votes! ^^;

On another phonetics note, pronunciation respelling guides on this wiki get on my nerves. They might risk relying on various vowel mergers that confuse people who don't have them (cot-caught, father-bother, and caught-father-bother are the most common), or being not easily readable to those not used to the respelling conventions.

If you're talking about 'visual alliteration', aren't you talking about tautograms? Perhaps look in that direction for a trope name and keep the word 'alliteration' for the phonetics?

Because I'm no longer sure I know what alliteration even is, before I launch Miserable Massage tonight, would putting it in the alliteration index be appropriate or no?

I'd think based on what was decided, that would be considered alliterative.

There's only one way to pronounce the letter M, and it's the only letter that makes that sound, so I'd say it's a safe bet.

More from Alliterative Name.

Removing from G

• Gigantic Gulp
• Glowing Gem
• Gorgeous George

Removing from H

• Hair of Gold, Heart of Gold

Removing from P

• Philosophical Parable
• Physical Scars, Psychological Scars
• Psychological Projection

Removing from T

• The Team
• Thinking Tic
• Think Twins

Removing from W

• Wrecked Weapon
• Written by the Winners

I'd like to continue (or rather start, I guess) the discussion on moving tropes to folders based on sounds. There is the C-word S-sound list in my previous post.

There are a few entries in the P folder that are pretty much S sounds but they start with the letter P. I suggest moving them to the S folder with a comment in note markup that says something like "P sound optional, S sound required." Obviously "P sound optional" would only be for those Psmith Psyndrome and Pstandard Psychic Pstance.

• Psmith Psyndrome
• Pstandard Psychic Pstance
• Psychic Strangle
• Psychic Static
• Psycho Psychologist
• Psycho Serum
• "Psycho" Strings

I feel like we could move Writer Revolt and Written Roar to the R folder for the same reason...

Psmith Psyndrome or Pstandard Psychic Pstance would go in P or S, and since the problem is the made-up spelling, I suppose it could go in either section. I suggest stamping a note next to its entry reading something like "P sound optional, S sound required"...

Edited by WaterBlap on May 14th 2020 at 9:31:35 AM

For Hair of Gold, Heart of Gold, it seems that it's alliterating "hair" with "heart", which is valid.

Edited by Albert3105 on May 14th 2020 at 7:12:48 AM

I thought Gigantic Gulp is both G-sound?

Gigantic has a soft g/j sound while gulp has a hard g sound. I am guessing that's why it was on the list of what needs to be cut.

Edited by MacronNotes on May 14th 2020 at 11:51:24 AM

Some dialects may pronounce the first G as a hard-g sound, though.

We will get nowhere if people are vague. What do you mean "some dialects"? And "may"? Are you assuming?

Google says that both American and British English pronounce "gigantic" with a J sound.

As much as I'm inclined to agree that, sure, different dialects pronounce words and letters differently...we've already had consensus to keep this trope to phonetic standards. if Gigantic and Gulp are different in terms of phonetics, that's that, I guess.

I don't mean to say "That's that," but I don't appreciate the Weasel Words in 4tell's post (considering the unexpectedly Serious Business that is alliteration). I really do mean to ask what dialects 4tell's talking about.

For example, I can think of one obscure dialect from the Detroit metropolitan and surrounding area where "cot" and "caught" are pronounced differently. If I were to argue "some dialects pronounce O and 'aught' differently," then I'd expect people to ask me for specifics. I also would not expect people to take the argument seriously considering how small the region is for that regional dialect. Neither I nor anyone else should get away with such vague and unhelpful phrasing, considering that people have argued on this topic way too intensely (we did, what, 7 pages in 2 hours).

EDIT: Also, I can add back Hair of Gold, Heart of Gold. I just figured there were too many words between the H sounds but if other people think it's fine I can add it back.

Edited by WaterBlap on May 15th 2020 at 9:26:02 AM

I actually think that Hair of Gold, Heart of Gold is fine.

I don't think that I've ever heard of the word "gigantic" being pronounced with something other than a "j"-sound.

However, the above quote actually prompts me to be cautious in dismissing the possibility: while I'm no expert, from my perspective pronouncing "cot" and "caught" differently is the norm; looking it up, it seems that voicing them similarly is primarily (albeit not exclusively) an American pronunciation.

Thus I'm interested to hear whether there ''is'', in fact, a dialect in which "gigantic" is pronounced with a hard "g"-sound.

Edited by ArsThaumaturgis on May 15th 2020 at 6:31:13 PM

I'm interested too; I wasn't trying to dismiss the conversation altogether. It's just that we've gotten to the point where it was agreed that dialect-based arguments no longer really seem to effect anything. Even if there is a dialect that pronounces Gigantic with a hard "G" sound, it'd technically be violating crowner consensus to use that as a reason to keep Gigantic Gulp on the list... and I'm saying this as someone who, as ya'll know from the discussion we had, disagrees with the crowner consensus.

I thought Greek and Latin (and Japanese) would pronounce "Giga-" with a hard G.

Those are languages, not dialects. We are concerned with the English language.

If the word was formed with the "giga-" prefix, then I could see it being pronounced with the /g/ sound, but it isn't. The word does come from the same root word (apparently "gigantikos"). But "gigantic" is not "giga- + -ntic" but rather "gigant- + -ic". (And now I know more about the words gigantic and giant than I ever thought I would.)

Green Is Gross would belong on Added Alliterative Appeal right?

Edited by MacronNotes on May 29th 2020 at 6:33:35 AM

Yes.

How do we actually handle alliteration examples? I usually see this, especially on character pages:

• Alliterative Name: Rob Rogers

That's how it's normally troped. But that's a nonsense as far as troping is concerned because it's basically saying 'sometimes people have the same sounds in their names and here's one of them'. That's chairs. This isn't telling me why it matters that Rob Rogers has an alliterative name... it's just treating the trope as a list-making exercise.

So, even if we end up with an example that everyone agrees is the trope, how do we actually write it?