Too Bleak, Stopped Caring

There are several DIAA entries that don't seem to fit that have been bugging me for a while. This one in particular seems pretty unfitting and written in a similar manner to the previously mentioned Persona 3 entry.

• Final Fantasy X begins with the protagonist's home being destroyed by the game's Big Bad. And things just get worse from there. The world of Spira is in constant fear of Sin, a monstrous creature that randomly attacks cities and people as a sport, and the only way to fight it is nothing more than a temporary solution, with briefer periods of peace before it returns. Operation Mi'hen is one of the darkest moments in the entire game and even the rest of the game is not the most cheerful or lighthearted. Death is constantly present and doesn't stop from your own party, with the revelation that love interest and female protagonist, Yuna, will have to die in order for the temporary solution against Sin to work. The darkness of this game might be a reason why the sequel went the opposite direction.

The entry leaves out details that mitigate the game's darkness such as the fact that Yuna doesn't in fact die, Sin is permanently defeated, and Spira is saved. Even Tidus sacrificing himself at the end, something the entry doesn't even mention, is mitigated by a post-credits scene implying that he survived. It basically just lists scenes where people die, every game in the series has scenes where people die and focusing only on those kinds of scenes will make any of them seem bleak. More importantly, the game sold very well and remains one of the most popular entries in the franchise. So it seems that it didn't really prevent too many people from enjoying the game.

Edited by TommyFresh on Feb 23rd 2020 at 10:07:56 AM

I removed this from YMMV.Star Trek Picard:

• Darkness-Induced Audience Apathy: The somewhat hopeful tone of The Next Generation, Deep Space Nine and Voyager seems to have taken a turn for the worse. The Federation no longer seems as bright and optimistic, and the former crew members of Voyager have not been having the best of times.

It fails to explain how the darkness makes it so you stop caring for the characters as there is seemingly no way for them to get a desirable ending.

Honestly, there are times I wonder, especially when seeing things like that Final Fantasy X "example", whether the userbase on the whole is just too wimpy to handle the existence of a page like this. And I say this as a fan of optimistic fiction.

I mean, the only other option I can come up with is that this is like Nightmare Fuel and people are deliberately trying to hype up how "dark" a work is, but given the inherently negative nature of the page that makes even less sense.

Edited by nrjxll on Mar 8th 2020 at 6:56:40 AM

Judging by the sort of examples that pop up on Nightmare Fuel, you may have a point...

I often wonder if some of those Nightmare Fuel examples are being written on behalf of some hypothetical third party who might find them scary, and presumably also is afraid of going outside or eating food.

I only remember one work genuinely scaring me in my entire life, and it was when I saw the original War of the Worlds as a six year old. I had nightmares for the next month of alien probes coming in through my bedroom window. Of course, I should not have been watching that movie as a six year old. Okay, maybe Event Horizon, but that's exempt from Nightmare Fuel because it's explicitly a horror film.

Anyway, the problem with DIAA, as I've observed many times before, is that it's being misused (deliberately or otherwise) for "I stopped caring about this show", regardless of the reason.

Edited by Fighteer on Mar 9th 2020 at 9:05:31 AM

Does this example seem a bit complainy to you guys? It’s basically just saying the second season as a whole, but then just rants about one particular episode for the rest of the entry.

• This is one of the reasons why the second season of The Amazing World of Gumball was rather divisive as the Wattersons were gradually flanderized into petty, ungrateful, selfish jerks that there's no one really to root for and, as a result, the show's attempt to be heartwarming comes off feeling forced and unearned. For example, in "The Hero", Gumball and Darwin laugh about how much of a loser their father is with their classmates, which Richard overhears and is wounded by. Instead of explaining how their insensitivity has hurt Richard, Nicole and Anais rage at the boys and decide to refuse them food, starving them into changing their mind for over a week. Darwin realizes the error of his ways while Gumball doubles down on how pathetic he thinks Richard is - verbally tearing into the man with surprising cruelty during the climax, while Richard is in the middle of trying to save his life. It's not an unpopular opinion that the inevitable reconciliation between father and son that happened a minute later felt very unearned and very rushed.

Edited by PlasmaPower on Mar 11th 2020 at 6:28:45 AM

Some entries I want to bring to mind here:

From Darkness-Induced Audience Apathy/Literature:

• A number of Star Wars Legends series are falling into this trope. Starting with New Jedi Order, the books have become progressively darker and everything just seems to be getting worse. Came to a head in Legacy of the Force, which ended with Jacen dying after being hacked to pieces and left in an incinerator, the galaxy under control of Daala, and the galaxy wrecked by yet another pointless war.
  • The New Star Wars canon is also going in this direction. With the events of the sequel trilogy wiping out all gains from the original, shattering the new Republic, bringing back the Emperor, and a somehow even more powerful empire. The entire Sith/Jedi Forever War has shades of this as well.

I think both is a clear case of Angst Aversion over the Skywalkers getting screwed, the ST ends with Ben Solo redeeming himself and Palpatine being killed off for good. Wrt Legends, I think that the way things left off wasn't catastrophically grimdark. Also in both cases there are clear good guys to root for.

• In J. R. R. Tolkien's The Silmarillion, the seven sons of Fëanor, Túrin, Petty-Dwarves and later the Númenoreans suffer from this.

And on the The Silmarillion page as well:

• The Silmarillion, in fleshing out the history of Middle-Earth, paints the picture of a world which is an irreparably broken shadow of its former glory that will continue to backslide until a Ragnarok-alike event in the far future wipes the slate clean. It's understandable if this colors your enjoyment of The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings somewhat.
• More specifically, isolated stories/events in the overall history of Arda (Tolkien's 'verse) have endings that vary between depressingly and pointlessly tragic to highly uplifting—but the overall pattern is unmistakable. In almost every way, things used to be SO much better than they are now, and even major victories are (in the big picture/long run) simply putting an (often temporary) end to a great evil that has already done tremendous, irreparable damage to the world and civilization. So when the pattern repeats itself, the world (and civilization in general) starts out in an increasingly worse state than before, and ends up even worse than that by the end of the arc. Nothing quite like seeing what an endless cycle of Pyrrhic Victories over a world's entire history does to it, eh?

I think the Silmarillion is another case of angst aversion as well rather than DIAA. Mainly from people that either view the Legendarium as one big Humans Are Bastards luddite author tract about "the long defeat" or because they disagree with the "evil begrets good" viewpoint of the author. But overall I think this is a case of Angst Aversion. Tolkien never intended for a Luddite "magic and elves good, technology and magic decay bad" message. He wanted to illustrate the cost of progress, and romanticism and enlightenment are seen in balanced terms in hindsight, and how victories require people to be put through a shitton of hell first(based on his WWI experiences). The decay of magic and the rise of humanity is not presented in a purely "bad" light since it's also evil magic that decays with good magic. I think Tolkien is more of Earn Your Happy Ending rather than the Long Defeat making everything suck on a balance sheet wise, and even with Arda Marred, I think it's implied that "everything Melkor does ultimately fulfills Eru's plan for the world". With regards to the long defeat itself, Tolkien does believe that at the end of time, evil will be purged from the universe once and for all, through the canoncity of the Dagor Dagorath is very disputed

Wrt individual stories in the Slim, I could see the story of the Feanorians, who aren't supposed to be good guys, maybe fit the bill for this through the Draco in Leather Pants treatment the Feanorians get begs to disgress. Numenor....I'm not really sure, because in the end while the civilization got too corrupt and was destroyed, the Faithful manages to escape and help the elves defeat Sauron, founding Arnor and Gondor, and eventually their bloodline is redeemed through Aragorn by the time of LOTR after going through a lot of hell.

So overall I think Slim is one big case of Angst aversion from people who disagree with the whole "Arda Marred is part of Eru's plan and evil cannot step out the shadow of god" interprertation.

From Western Animation

• Season 4 of Star vs. the Forces of Evil has received accusations of this. Not only does Eclipsa, now the new queen of Mewni, struggle to be accepted due to her bad reputation, but her reign is shown to have pretty negative consequences on the kingdom.^note For starters, several mewmans end up losing their homes due to territories being given back to monsters, Eclipsa's lack of effort into monitoring the kingdom results in anarchy due to the Mewman's inexperience in taking care of themselves, and even some monsters are upset with her due to Mewmans still acting racist toward them despite their reintegration in society. Meanwhile, Star's entire family, save for Moon, become painfully reviled by the mewman population for their perceived irresponsibility, and the Magic High Commission proceed to take several levels in jerkass, refusing to grow out of their bigoted attitudes^note Rhombulus in particular completely reverses his Character Development from previous seasons and devolves into a Manchild Knight Templar Hate Sink. Just when it seems things are finally improving, with Eclipsa finally being accepted, improving as a queen, and reuniting with her husband, Mina Loveberry throws a Coup d'état with an army of Solarian Knights, complete with Moon, formerly one of the most reasonable characters in the show, suddenly distrusting Eclipsa enough to support this coup. Much like the Catdog and Ed, Edd, and Eddy examples; this is rectified in the series' Grand Finale.
• As a number of the examples on the YMMV page for Tangled: The Series will attest to, the sheer amount of times that the actions of Rapunzel and/or Eugene have resulted in trouble for either themselves or the kingdom as well as (directly or indirectly) the respective Face-Heel Turns of two of their closest allies and the show's frequent Downer Endings in story driven episodes has left some (though certainly not all) fans feeling that the show's Cerebus Syndrome is overstaying its welcome and is making things far too unpleasant and bleak, even with the knowledge that things will get better for Rapunzel and company by the events of Tangled Ever After.

Both are trope misuse. There are clear good guys in both situations, and Tangled The Series ends very happily.

From Star Wars: The Clone Wars:

• Darkness-Induced Audience Apathy: Besides the matter that neither the Galactic Republic nor the Separatist Alliance win the war and that Palpatine will take over the galaxy, the mature and melancholy tone that the later seasons of The Clone Wars can make it difficult to care about the characters at times, particularly due to the Jedi Council's actions during the Deception arc (where Obi-Wan fakes his death to go undercover as Rako Hardeen and ends up giving Anakin a near mental breakdown) and the Fugitive arc (where Ahsoka is framed for murder and bombing the Jedi Temple hangar in addition to being arrested and deciding to leave the Jedi Order as a result). The story arcs in the third season focused on somewhat sympathetic yet still ruthless villains such as Asajj Ventress, Savage Opress, and Darth Maul (and they primarily didn't have happy endings), the many likable characters don't help the depression, and the deaths of Waxer, Satine, Tup, Fives, etc. present how fruitless the conflict is able to be. This trope was likely part of the reason why the battle droids' comic relief became more warmly regarded later on, as it could help avert this. Dave Filoni himself even lampshaded after The Clone Wars' original run that the series' later seasons became way too dark.

Clear Foregone Conclusion, the Jedi were never going to win this one, cut

Edited by xie323 on Mar 18th 2020 at 9:34:16 AM

Cut all of those.

Ok, will do so ASAP.

I'm wondering if we need a short-term trope cleanup thread. I don't think this is abused as say MB or CM but it gets a degree of complaining about shows you don't like or trope misuse.

Edited by xie323 on Mar 18th 2020 at 10:24:30 AM

Agree with cutting the Silmarillion examples.

The Silmarillion is definitely not a DIAA work. Also, if a Projects thread to keep this trope clean is indicated, by all means do it.

Ok, might start a projects thread, there does seem to be a degree of misuse. I've also moved a couple of the ymmv into Angst Aversion.

Edited by xie323 on Mar 18th 2020 at 6:31:51 AM

What shall we do with this example from Stardew Valley. Keep it or cut it?

• Taking the time with the villagers shows that all of them have their issues going on, and the player cannot fix everyone's problem. This can leave the player to feel burnt out about things, which hampers the enjoyment of the socializing aspect of the game. Though some argue this is slightly mitigated with how some characters undergo a certain amount Character Development as the player continues to befriend them.

Cut. That's the example I brought up in ATT of how badly DIAA is misused; Stardew is wildly popular for being a cosy escapist simulator. The characters are all well-liked and their 'unsolvable issues' are rarely relevant outside of certain cutscenes; they're all pleasant and happy folk most of the time (Shaun's the only one I can think of as being an exception, but if anything he's more popular because players relate to/want to help him through his depression). Not to mention the weasle-wordy 'though some may argue' that has the example contradicting itself.

It's like saying Animal Crossing invokes DIAA cause some of the villagers are mean or have cranky days.

Not added to YMMV anywhere, but would this fit the trope:

• Dexter's Laboratory, although a Sci-Fi show, is also a Sadist Show at times and often has a Downer Ending for the protagonist Dexter (although Status Quo Is God within the show's continuity, due to Negative Continuity and Rule of Funny) yet it can sometimes be hard to get invested in the show since it's rare that Dexter will come out on top and things will always be difficult for him. There's not many Breather Episodes, even if there is some comedy in the show. The outcome is negative a fair amount of the time for Dexter, with him being sent to prison (It Makes Sense in Context) and even in one episode they alluded to him being dead. The episode "Scare Tactics" from Season 3, a Minimalist Cast Psychological Horror episode where Nothing Is Scarier has a fairly dark ending with Dexter and his Dad undergoing a Heroic BSoD and literally frozen.
  • "Nothing good is ever going to happen in this world or to these characters, and none of the characters is likable anyway, so why should I care about it or them?" is one train of thought that a new viewer could have upon seeing the show.

(not relevant now, struck through)

• Batwoman (2019) could be considered this, having taken the mantle of the Darker and Edgier series in Arrowverse now that Arrow has finished, by comparison with The Flash, Supergirl (2015) or Legends of Tomorrow. It's set in a Crapsaccharine World where it's glass-half-full mentality and the Anti-Hero protagonist can be difficult to root for, at least in this continuity, as compared to other portrayals of Barbara / Batwoman (for example DC Comics Bombshells).

I don't want to add it without consensus, but don't want to misuse the trope.

Edited by Merseyuser1 on Apr 3rd 2020 at 2:59:46 PM

Dexter's Laboratory does not have a DIAA problem. It is a light-hearted children's cartoon show. Cinderella's stepsisters wouldn't shoehorn that hard.

It has to be obviously dark to count, right?

There has to be a lack of levity and a pessimistic worldview to even be in consideration for the trope. A cynical sense of humor is not the same thing.

Yeah, I really think people aren't getting the "darkness" part of the trope, which is weird considering how obsessed our culture is over the phenomenon.

Darkness in this context means: "Everything is fucked, life is shit for most people, and there's no hope of making things better." It does not mean that someone felt bad once, or that a main character stubbed their fucking toe.

Edited by Fighteer on Apr 3rd 2020 at 9:20:24 AM

I think my example was wrong, but as for the Batwoman one?

Familiarity with the show is needed even in decent looking examples. I don't know the show so I can't say if it's accurate, but the example does seem formatted to what the trope is about. I know Arrow was criticized for oppressive darkness multiple times, especially in the first half of the first season where it was all about Oliver's grim Private Eye Monologue.

YMMV.The Simpsons S 27 E 18 How Lisa Got Her Marge Back:

• Darkness-Induced Audience Apathy: No one in this episode is likable. While Lisa being upset with Marge after learning that her mother doesn't actually like her interests is understandable, disowning her is a bit much. However it goes straight into Unintentionally Unsympathetic when they show actually tries to compare their relationship to Homer and Bart’s when she starts Calling Parents by Their Name. On the other hand Marge tries to make it up to Lisa by taking her to something only she would enjoy showing that she is Completelymissingthepoint of why Lisa is angry. She then forbad Maggie from pursuing similar interest as Lisa.

My impression is single episodes aren't this trope as it's too short a time for apathy to set in. Especially if the rest of the work isn't this trope. Angst Aversion a better fit?

You are correct that single episodes cannot count.

The core trope is about not wanting to finish the story because you lost interest in the outcome and who wins. That's a really difficult thing to pull off in a 22 minute episode.

I think "a trope about episodes/story parts which the audience finds too dark" could be a good idea.