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That One Boss and That One Level cleanup.

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Albert3105 Since: Jun, 2013
#551: Jul 31st 2020 at 12:34:44 PM

[up] Nocturne has an obscenely huge section (like, half the bosses ended up on the page at some point). Even after a few bosses have been removed, there's Black Rider and Mada who I still really want gone.

Also, the page quote ironically is about a FromSoftware and Sony game, not an Atlus game. I really want to replace it for this reason.

Edited by Albert3105 on Jul 31st 2020 at 3:36:19 PM

Libraryseraph Showtime! from Canada (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: Raising My Lily Rank With You
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#552: Jul 31st 2020 at 12:42:58 PM

[up] I also think having a company page is weird. I think we should move the smt and persona examples to a ThatOneBoss.Shin Megami Tensei page and move the others to the appropriate genre

Absolute destiny... apeachalypse?
Albert3105 Since: Jun, 2013
#553: Jul 31st 2020 at 12:46:12 PM

We should purge the games not developed by Atlus first and move those elsewhere. Then we see what we have left.

Edited by Albert3105 on Jul 31st 2020 at 3:51:34 PM

Libraryseraph Showtime! from Canada (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: Raising My Lily Rank With You
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#554: Jul 31st 2020 at 12:56:55 PM

[up] Yeah, although even Fromsoft games have separate pages, despite being far more connected gameplay and style wise than... Trauma Center and Snowboard Kids

Absolute destiny... apeachalypse?
Albert3105 Since: Jun, 2013
#555: Jul 31st 2020 at 1:06:09 PM

I was wishing for a FromSoftware subpage for a long time exactly because of their design commonalities and company reputation.

Edited by Albert3105 on Jul 31st 2020 at 4:34:00 AM

CasualChris Since: May, 2020
#556: Jul 31st 2020 at 1:26:35 PM

The Wolf Sigma entry on the TOB/Mega Man subpage that I cleaned up last month is still there. Yes, it's a difficult fight, but should I just delete it entirely since it's a Final Boss and it should be expected to be hard?

Edited by CasualChris on Jul 31st 2020 at 4:28:35 AM

Libraryseraph Showtime! from Canada (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: Raising My Lily Rank With You
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CasualChris Since: May, 2020
#558: Jul 31st 2020 at 4:18:31 PM

[up]Done.

Edited by CasualChris on Jul 31st 2020 at 10:31:53 AM

Albert3105 Since: Jun, 2013
#559: Jul 31st 2020 at 6:29:43 PM

[up][up][up] Even among the Sigma fights, I'm pretty sure it's not the most infamous of them. Final bosses are allowed as That One Boss if they're "overly hard by their standards."

This would mean that the Wily Capsule in Mega Man 7 would be permitted due to being the most infamously difficult of the Wily battles in the entire series.

Edited by Albert3105 on Jul 31st 2020 at 9:34:44 AM

CasualChris Since: May, 2020
#560: Jul 31st 2020 at 7:32:20 PM

While we're at it, I'll take a look at the other entries on TOB/Mega Man pages. I'll keep it to the Classic and X folders since they're the ones I know the best, and only comment on the ones I've played/beaten.

     Mega Man (Classic series) 

Mega Man

  • Elec Man is fairly quick and aggressive, and his weapon, the Thunder Beam, deals a staggering 10 damage, enough to take you out in just 3 hits. It doesn't help that his weakness, the Rolling Cutter, fires a somewhat slow boomerang projectile with limited range, meaning you'll have to risk getting close to Elec Man to hit him with it. Elec Man's very fast and powerful, but his AI still suffers from a fatal flaw: at the start of the fight, if you fire a Mega Buster shot when he's about to fire at you, it will cancel it out due to his hitstun and he'll immediately try it again. Don't lose the timing and he can be brought down without getting touched once. Also, Rolling Cutter's arc easily covers half of the screen, so I wouldn't consider that "limited range". I'm torn on this one.
  • The Yellow Devil from Wily Stage 1. As lamented in this song, many gamers have lost a good chunk of their childhood trying to get past this shining example of Nintendo Hard. Unless they cheated. The Yellow Devil's difficulty stems from his attack pattern; he splits apart and flies across the room one piece at a time, and you have to have crazy good reflexes — or have to have memorized his pattern — to dodge him without getting hit. Once he's fully formed, his eye opens and fires a fast-moving projectile at you, then it closes and he starts flying across the room again. You only get a couple of seconds before the eye closes, and if you're trying to kill him with the Buster, the eye sometimes opens too high to hit. Not only that, but he takes forever and a day to die. And when he changes sides, you have much less reaction time to dodge with because he's already on screen, and less room to move. The first Yellow Devil is easily one of the most infamous bosses in the franchise, pause glitch or not. Keep.

Mega Man 2

  • Quick Man, right after his own hair-pulling level. He is incredibly fast, but can still deal a respectable 4 damage per hit. While Flash Man's Time Stopper can take half his life in one shotnote , the player will probably need it to get past the daunting laser barrage right before his door. This was enforced by the dev team, who initially conceived Quick Man as a rival character and thus made him extra difficult to beat. He's a hard boss, but the bit about using Time Stopper on him is very Walkthrough Mode sounding, however, so that should probably be cut. Though being able to shave off half his health before the fight even starts makes him a little trivial. Not sure, leaning on keep.
  • The Boobeam Trap, the turrets with blindingly fast shots from the walls heading straight for you every five seconds or so. It's one of two bosses in the Wily Castle that only has one way to damage it, the Crash Bomber. And the kicker? You only have seven uses of the weapon maximum. Five to actually destroy the turrets, and both of your remaining shots to break barriers blocking the others. To make matters worse, there are plenty of other doors you can bomb, and there is no way to win if you use just one bomb incorrectly. If you don't make clever use of Items or accidentally miss a shot, then you will not be able to defeat this boss. And since you don't get energy refills after death, you either need to take forever restocking energy off the few enemies in the pre-boss hallway or just game over entirely and restart the stage. There's a reason why practically every Mega Man 2 ROM hack out there, even the obscenely hard ones, generally make this boss easier. The only mercy you're given is that the barriers you destroy don't respawn if you die. Not a fan of this boss at all; never seen anyone who is. Keep, but trim it down.

Mega Man 3

  • The Doc Robot that mimics Quick Man is just as fast and unpredictable as the original Robot Master, but is also larger and more resilient. He also deals far more Collision Damage (8, as opposed to the original Quick Man dealing 4), and due to the way that he runs and jumps all over the place, it's extremely difficult to avoid bumping into him. This is such a deadly threat that a common strategy is to get hit by his boomerangs on purpose; they deal far less damage, and the resulting Mercy Invincibility can be used to avoid a devastating collision. Doc Quick is an infamous boss, and everything here sounds about right. Keep.
  • The Doc Robot that mimics Wood Man has a Leaf Shield with a significantly larger hitbox than that of the original Wood Man's—large enough that you almost need Rush Coil to get over it (which consequently smacks you into the leaves coming from above). The Leaf Shield also deals a whopping 8 damage, as does direct contact with Doc Wood himself, meaning that he can very easily take you out in just 4 hits. Never seen/heard of anyone using Rush Coil to try and dodge the Leaf Shield, but another infamously difficult fight for most of the reasons stated. Keep.

Mega Man 7

  • Slash Man is fast and strong, and he can immobilize you with a red adhesive-like substance. He has three different attack patterns: one where you can freely shoot him because he keeps following you and trying to slash you; one where he will do a big jump directly towards your position that can be dodged with good use of the slide; and one where he goes to the ceiling, starts dropping blobs of red goop, and then randomly chooses to either dive at you from the wall or drop down and go back to one of his starting patterns. If a blob lands on your head, you'll get slowed down and lose the ability to jump; if it lands on the floor, it will create a sticky puddle that will completely immobilize you if you step in it. Should you touch any of the goop, you'll have to button mash to break free, but while you're doing that, you'll be a sitting duck for Slash Man's dive and slash attacks. And just to add insult to injury, his slash attack can actually reflect your shots back at you if you attack at just the wrong time. It doesn't help that whenever he's hit by one of his weaknesses (Freeze Cracker or Scorch Wheel), he repeats the third pattern after he recovers. Sounds about right. Keep.
  • Wily Capsule 7 is overly difficult even by the standards of final bosses for the Mega Man series. His main attack is shooting four elementally charged orbs that stop mid-flight to adjust their path twice. The ice spheres hurt less, but freeze Mega Man in place (and more often than not they're followed with electric balls for additional damage), while the fire sphere is as powerful as Turbo Man's Scorch Wheel. His weakness, the Wild Coil, is (as per the tradition) difficult to hit him with. Even the developers found this one impossible without E-Tank usage. You know the boss fight is ridiculous when a common bit of advice for fighting him is "Just get hit by the yellow orbs. They hurt less." Another infamously difficult boss in the franchise. The ice spheres do hurt a LOT though, so that should be changed.

Mega Man 8

  • The first Wily Fortress boss can only be hit by the Mega Ball, a weapon that has to bounce off the wall up to the ceiling at the right angle to hit the boss. It doesn't help that its level is pretty tough to get through normally. The biggest reason this counts, though, is that it's a Guide Dang It! moment — if you hold the up direction while kicking the ball, it goes at an upward angle instead of forward. This boss is a whole lot less annoying if you know this trick, but the game never mentions that you can do this. Telling the reader about aiming the Mega Ball is Walkthrough Mode, so that should be cut. The level is definitely much more feared than this boss, though. Not sure, leaning on cut.

Mega Man 9

  • Dr. Wily in this game rivals his Mega Man 7 incarnation. The final battle is a three-form fight with no breaks, and the first form is an unorthodox Tennis Boss. The Wily Capsule is the main problem, though; its attacks are quite similar to the ones used by the Wily Capsule from Mega Man 7, albeit somewhat toned down. Its weakness, as usual, is the most awkward weapon possible—in this case, the Plug Ball. When used in midair, the Plug Ball drops straight down in front of Mega Man, so you'll need to be within melee range in order to actually land a hit with it. However, since the Wily Capsule can appear anywhere on the screen (including the very top, where you can't jump high enough to reach it), it's quite unlikely that you'll be close enough to land a hit with the Plug Ball, let alone do so without getting hit. Wily Machine/Capsule 9 is a long, tough ordeal (it's the only boss in the classic series that's three phases back-to-back), but it definitely doesn't rival Wily Capsule 7 in terms of difficulty. Magma Bazooka makes reflecting the eggs in the first phase easier. This entry also completely ignores the second phase, which has a difficult to dodge flame jet (that can be sucked up with Black Hole Bomb) and ramming attack. You can also reach the capsule's higher appearance spots if you use Rush. Should probably be cut.

Mega Man 11

  • The Yellow Devil returns as the first Wily stage boss, and it's just as hard as in the NES game. It has heavily-damaging pieces that can wipe you out in 5 hits; the window of time to hit its eye is very tight; the eye shoots lasers and bombs that make it even harder to hit while dodging; and its Speed Gear boost splits it into nine miniature copies of itself, which run and jump around the room before recombining. It has the exact same single blob pattern as in 1, the Speed Gear can give you more reaction time to all of its attacks, and Power Gear + Chain Blast shreds through its health. Cut.

Mega Man & Bass

  • This game is notorious for Dynamo Man, who likes to hop into a recharging rig mid-battle. By the time you break it, he'll have regained at least a third of his HP (and he'll happily refill completely if you take long enough). Mega Man has an easier time because he can slide under Dynamo Man's attacks and use charged shots to take out the recharger faster, but Bass has his work cut out for him. Dynamo only uses the recharging rig at low health, and his weakness, Copy Vision, can destroy it in no time if timed properly. That said, this entry does not mention his Lightning Bolt, which not only takes well-timed shots to prevent him from doing, but also does not at all indicate where it will be fired. Keep, but additional details need to be added.
  • Burner Man, who resides at the end of That One Level, has several attacks that deal a lot of damage, as well as one that holds you in place as he has his way with you. His Wave Burner is also capable of deflecting shots, and he likes to back you into a corner with it. If you fight him with his weakness, Cold Man's Ice Wall, he becomes somewhat of a Puzzle Boss; you have to use the Wall to push him into the spikes on either side of his arena. However, the Ice Wall can be only used when he is on the ground; if you use it at any other time, he'll bust right through it, and you'll have wasted your ammo. If you mess up too many times, it's easy to run out of ammo and be forced to go through his agonizing stage all over again. And unlike Dynamo Man, he's a real challenge for both Mega Man and Bass. Telling the reader to use his weakness at specific times... Walkthrough Mode much? Still a keeper, though.

     Mega Man X series 

Mega Man X/Mega Man: Maverick Hunter X

  • Launch Octopus is a Lightning Bruiser who relies on Macross Missile Massacre, and newer players may select Launch Octopus first due to his icon being the default on the Maverick selection screen, only to be blown away due to not having obtained the dash boots from Chill Penguin's stage. Even with dashing, you still need to worry about his projectiles. He can stop firing and start his whirlpool to Life Drain attack very quickly, and the only warning you get is how fast his jump is. The Boomerang Cutter can slice off his tentacles to disable his Life Drain, but good luck hitting him with his weakness regardless, as his projectile attack will destroy the Rolling Shields you fire at him. Cutting off his tentacles also gets rid of his tornado move and his piranha missiles, making him significantly easier, but he's still easily the hardest Maverick of the 8 without. That bit about using Boomerang Cutter also borders on Walkthrough Mode.
  • Sting Chameleon. One of the few bosses in the game widely considered to be a total death wish for new players, and still a pain for even veterans. The very annoying part about his fight is when he clings to the ceiling to rain the spikes in his room down on you, which fall quite fast, aren't all that easy to dodge, and their damage adds up eventually. On top of that, thanks to his ability to disappear and reappear at will to attack as well as to dodge your attacks, it turns his battle into a very long, hit-and-run war of attrition. His iron tongue attack is lightning quick and does good damage, and he can take plenty of punishment as well. If you slip up even a bit in this fight, you will pay for it. He's annoying on his own, but he can easily be locked in a pattern with Boomerang Cutter, his weakness. Leaning on cut for this one.
  • The Bospider, due to the speed she moves at, the difficulty of quickly figuring out where the boss will end up depending on what pole she appears on and where the pegs she moves along appear, and the timing needed to hit her before she regains her invincibility. And then she Turns Red...Good luck hitting it with its weakness, too. It's not even good against the mini-spiders, since it'll only hit one and the firing rate isn't fast enough to shoot at the one behind it. If you know anything about amidakuji, this boss shouldn't be too much of an issue. You can also pause buffer if you need more time to determine where it's going to move, though the little spiders can get in the way of actually hitting it. More of a Goddamned Boss than anything. Also, it's genderless.

Mega Man X2

  • Magna Centipede isn't just difficult, but an outright Luck-Based Mission if you don't have his weakness, or at the very a least a near-full set of upgrades. His favorite trick is to use an attack which can only be avoided by spamming dashes and will gradually cripple X's combat abilities for the duration of the battle, eventually leaving X with no charge shot, a slow firing rate and limited jumping abilities. After that, he'll bombard you non-stop with ninja throwing stars until you die. While having his weakness does make things a lot easier by taking out his disabling attack, that still leaves you with a constant stream of throwing stars, and his habit of rapidly teleporting and bouncing around the room makes it difficult to hit him with follow-up attacks. The potential status effects are very annoying, but the ninja stars he throws are very easy to avoid. Especially if you knock off his tail. The attack where he throws pieces of his tail after you to home in on you can also be very hard to avoid (this entry doesn't mention this attack at all), though knocking off his tail also disables that. Not sure.
  • Violen in the X-Hunter Base counts because of his ball-and-chain attack. Whenever he fires it, it will do one of two things. Either it will bounce in an arc in a far-mid-close range configuration, or it will bounce around the room at random. When it bounces randomly, it will lazily trail X, but it bounces off the wall at weird angles. Trying to outrace it is impossible, as it merely has to decide to cut your escape route off and it will. This fight will also randomly spawn blocks that bounce his spike ball attacks. If you try to be cheeky and think that you can use the blocks as platforms to avoid his attacks think again as the blocks are destroyed by his ball on rebound. The battle is more of an attrition match than anything else while you keep trying to hit him with the X-Buster or the Bubble Splash and kill him before he kills you. The slowdown that happens when he uses his mace can help with avoiding it, but it still hits very hard even with the armor. Keep, but maybe rewrite some stuff to be less "this fight is literally impossible unless you damage-race him".
  • If you collect all of Zero's parts from the X-Hunters, then you'll be able to skip the battle against Zero at the end of the game. If you don't, you're in trouble at the end of the game before you battle Sigma. The only weapon that really hurts him — the Speed Burner — is hard to hit him with, and his attacks are hard to dodge and they HURT. And after you've beaten him (probably draining all your Sub-Tanks in the process), you still have to fight Sigma. The moral of the story is to get all of his parts, no matter how hard they are to get early in the game.
    • Zero's AI is easily predicted/manipulated and all of his attacks are avoidable. All of which means absolutely nothing, as Zero is just too damn fast. Slipping up AT ALL will have you eating his attacks as he grinds your face into the floor. The first part of this sub-bullet easily sums up my thoughts on this one. He can very easily be locked into a pattern until death if you know what you're doing. Cut.

Mega Man X3

  • Volt Catfish is an absolute nightmare of epic proportions. His attacks are insanely hard to dodge, as you'll be dashing for your life the entire fight, with not even a second for a breather. He's also incredibly unpredictable, as even with all your dashing prowess he'll manage to somehow use the move that hits you at that exact spot anyway. The worst part is his half-hp move, which renders him invulnerable for a good 15 or so seconds, all the while you have to dodge electric sparks going everywhere and at the end he does an extremely damaging headbutt with no warning whatsoever. And he proceeds to spam this attack for the rest of the fight. However, by using his weakness (Tornado Fang, one of the easiest weapons to get with an armorless weaponless Megaman) his threat is reduced several levels. While having such a big weakness would make him not qualify for this list, the sheer unbalance between fighting him with it and without it should be noted. You literally just admitted to breaking the Walkthrough Mode rule... cut!
  • If you defeat Bit and Byte with their weakness, then you'll be able to skip the battle against Godkarmachine O Inary and fight the Press Disposer. If you don't, you're in trouble at the end of Doppler Stage 1. The Godkarmachine O Inary is a formidable opponent on the SNES version who can do major damage to you if you're not quick enough to dodge his attacks, but on the Playstation remake which is also on the Mega Man X collection disk, this boss becomes a real nightmare. Its attack, defense, and speed are much higher than they should be, and even with the Gold Armor found in the same level, this boss might require multiple sub-tanks to defeat if you're not careful, as its damage output easily rivals the Final Boss Sigma's. I can't find any information that suggests that the CD versions of the game make this boss harder. That said, it does have a grab attack that is not only hard to avoid, but hurts a lot with continuous damage if you get hit by it. Leaning on keep.
  • Sigma and Kaiser Sigma. Sigma's swapped out his Z-Saber and Wolverine Claws for a Captain America-esque shield, which defends him from all attacks as long as it's bared. His main attack consists of spraying fireballs all over the place, and while these have obvious patterns they are blazingly fast, adding to the frustration. At 50% health he will start spamming his shield attack, that while also predictable is extremely fast. When you defeat him, Kaiser Sigma appears. His battle body is so big he fills one third of the screen and his weak spot is the size of a pin. His weakness? Oh wait, he doesn't have any weakness and he's only damaged by charged Buster shots in the game with arguably the worst Buster upgrade in the X series so you're stuck with level 2 and level 3 charged shots. He has 2 patterns, one when you're facing his back and one when you're in front of him. The first makes him shoot several tracking missiles that hit extremely hard. The second makes him charge a laser that tracks you and continuously damages and stuns you when you get hit by it. All the while he's spawning tracking bombs. And to add insult to injury, the first time you try to hit his obvious weak spot, you will find out that you need to aim for his battle body propellers instead of the head. It's a Final Boss, it's supposed to be hard. Even then, the Z-Saber takes out both of his forms in two hits each. Cut.

Mega Man X4

  • Magma Dragoon, considering he has both the fire-based Hadoken (Fireball) and Shoryuken (Dragon Punch) and loves to constantly use these moves. This isn't even the best part, as when he gets hurt enough, he'll shoot out a large stream of fire, or summon a fiery meteor storm that is pretty much impossible to dodge. This is take Up To Eleven with Zero, who has to slash him at close-range, unlike X who can easily fight him from a decent distance away. X can make the fight against him a complete joke using his weakness to lock his pattern into a loop through stun animations, but Zero's most effective technique against Magma Dragoon cannot stun him. As a result, it is entirely possible (and likely) for Magma Dragoon to attack Zero while he is in the middle of the technique's attack animation.
    • As a nod to just how tough he is, the game will allow you to enter this battle with Ride Armor. Which you will lose to the aforementioned stream of fire attack unless you enter the lava behind him quickly, and the Ride Armor isn't exactly good in the speed department. Still, you can knock off a good portion of Dragoon's health before you inevitably have to finish the job on foot. And the X Legacy Collection has a medal for killing Dragoon with the Ride Armor. You won't have this luxury during the Boss Rush in the final stage, though. You can get the achievement by just getting his health very low on foot and jumping into the Ride Armor to finish him off, so it's not That One Achievement by any means. Dragoon is definitely difficult as Zero and without the Ride Armor, so maybe keep those parts only.
  • Fighting The General as X is an utter cakewalk, as he can easily hug the opposite wall and plug Charge Shots into General's face while dodging generally slow-moving projectiles. The General for Zero, on the other hand, degenerates into this quickly since Zero has no effective long-range attack for a safe option, forcing Zero to close the distance to hit his head. It should also be mentioned the game registers Collision Damage if bodily contact is made with General's Shoulders of Doom or even his body in general, and he hugs the wall he chooses to be by close enough it's suicide to try and Wall Jump behind his back to hit him in the head. The only two options Zero thus has involve either riding on The General's Rocket Punch back to his body while dealing with the previously-mentioned projectiles, which despite their speed require fast reaction times to avoid since Zero is unavoidably coming closer to them, or to hug the opposite wall and wait for The General to charge in close before leaping off and plugging him with a rolling slash. The latter is the safer method, but depending on how General's AI runs it can take a long time to wear him down this way depending on how often he feels like pulling said move off. General is definitely a huge pain as Zero. Keep.
  • Sigma's an exhausting grudge match, with three forms, the last consisting of two separate bosses that switch in and out of the fight and do NOT share health, and no breaks in between. The first form goes down easily enough, but the second delights in chasing you around with his Sinister Scythe and filling the screen with projectiles, and the third? Each form stays on screen for maybe thirty seconds at a time, and alternates with three robot heads who try to knock off bits of your health and never stay dead for good. One of the two forms is prone to busting out a nasty laser attack with maybe a second's window for dodging, and the second has a nearly unavoidable garbage-spray and a wind attack that can knock you into some (non-lethal but very painful) spikes. And while X can tear through the first two forms with ease and at least keep the last at a safe distance, Zero has to deal with these things up close.

Mega Man X5

  • Spiral Pegasus/The Skiver, which is basically a tougher version of Storm Eagle; he boasts the same sort of attacks, but all vastly more difficult, coming from all directions at high speeds. And making him a standout from every other boss in the entire series, he does not have an actual weakness to a specific power. Instead, he can be frozen with the Dark Hold, which doesn't last long enough to punch off a decent portion of his health.
    • To make up for the fact that he doesn't have similar pushing abilities as Storm Eagle, any contact with him will push X or Zero a lot farther. Did you collide into him next to a pit? You're probably going into that pit. Definitely a long, hard fight; keep. Although you can pile on lots of damage while he's frozen in Dark Hold via Zero's saber-dash-cancelling, considering that's a trick that's mainly only used by speedrunners, it doesn't mean much during a casual playthrough.
  • Volt Kraken/Squid Adler. His strategy is basically filling the screen with lightning projectiles. Also if his health is depleted by 1/3, he'll electrify the floor (temporarily), forcing you to take the walls and the floating blocks he oh-so-kindly summons for you (which can also disappear without warning). Worse, he might sometimes summon electrified blocks instead, and his Desperation Attack is him firing a wide spread of lightning at once. The weapons he's weak to are hard to use; X's Goo Shaver will go downward diagonally if fired in midair (and he flies a lot), while Zero's F-Splasher will require him to airdash towards him (which will damage Zero as well if you're not careful). I'd say that he isn't easy, but he's not hard enough be considered That One Boss, either, considering that it's actually pretty easy to hit him with Goo Shaver and it hurts him quite a bit. Leaning towards cut.
  • Shadow Devil in the first virus stage; it is hard for X, but a NIGHTMARE for Zero. Besides a very hard-to-dodge spam attack, his weak point is his eye, which fires yellow orbs at you, and the most effective attack against him is lightning. X has his buster and Tri-Thunder weapon, both of which are ranged, but Zero has to use his saber and the E-Blade, which he slashes upwards while moving forward slightly. This means he has to get practically in the boss's face to use it, but far enough away not to touch the body (which deals massive damage). Add to the fact that sometimes the eye appears in a place which you plain can't reach with the saber, and you get a very difficult boss for Zero to counter. The C-Sword can be used as an alternative, but makes matters no less difficult.
    • Shadow Devil also leaves a green outline behind when it splits...that does a LUDICROUS amount of collision damage to you. A very difficult and tedious boss, keep, but move the outline part to the main paragraph.
  • Gamma Sigma may have an unfinished battle body but he's no pushover. He likes to alternate between invulnerability and vulnerability periods while continuously shooting electric balls and trying to crush you with his hands. To top it off, he has 2 extremely hard to avoid attacks. One makes him spawn an energy cube that follows you at light speed and makes humongous ammounts of damage even against armored X and takes about one third of the screen. The energy cube will fully acquire form after a few seconds of chasing you and then it will still follow you so you need to have god-like reflexes to avoid it. The other one makes one of his hands shoot lightning from above and will also track you to hit for humongous damage, so you need to take refuge right under his lightning attack blind spot. The hand will keep moving so you need to follow along slowly. He can be taken down in 16 Nova Strikes via X's Ultimate Armor and camping at the top of the screen, but Zero will most likely have big problems against him. Not sure about this one, but since it's a Final Boss, I'm leaning towards cut.

Mega Man X6

  • Infinity Mijinion, whose main gimmick is cloning an infinite amount of himself. His clones have the uncanny ability to get in your way a whole bunch until you forget which one's the real one. The clones also releases slow-moving homing blobs of goo which further add to the difficulty. Even getting to him is a huge problem because the entire stage is spent fighting Illumina, which is no walk in the park either. Heck, this is a case in which using the boss' weakness probably makes the battle harder. Hitting him with the uncharged Guard Shell is difficult, if only because it only works against one of his attacks (which is unpredictable to use, mind you), but if it does hit, it creates another clone. It wouldn't even be that bad if the clones didn't have so much health, usually taking three charged normal shots to destroy.
    • This is taken Up To Eleven with Zero if Infinity Mijinion does his ultimate move and hovers in the air in the middle of the room dropping an endless amount of clones. X can at least stay on the wall and shoot him, but Zero has to do a huge wall jump from the top of the wall and strike him in midair. The most infamous Maverick fight in the entire series, hands down. Keep.
  • The Nightmare Mother is already a rather hard boss on Normal mode, but on Xtreme, it becomes one of the most difficult in the game. Both cubes move at an accelerated speed even at full health and can change direction whenever they like, all while constantly firing projectiles at you until they stop. When they do stop to attack, welcome to Bullet Hell. Each eye can release one of four attacks:
    • Shockwave-producing Blue Orbs: This is the easiest attack to dodge, as the projectiles are slow and predictable. However, it's easy for them to sneak up on you when you are dodging one of the other three attacks.
    • Fireball Rain: The eye will unload fireballs into the air, where they will fall upon you like a fountain. The pattern isn't random, but it is unforgivably fast, and you have little room to dodge. This becomes a much worse problem when you have another attack to dodge.
    • Flaming Floor: Exactly what it sounds like. The floor is covered in fire, forcing you to take to the walls. Again, this is only to cut off your dodge room for whatever other attack may be coming your way.
    • Lightning Orbs: The worst attack. The orbs will hover back and forth halfway from the ceiling and fire lightning at random. This is nasty because there's no timing to them, and it's not telegraphed. The only way to know if the orb is about to fire is if you've already been hit by it. I don't dare play X6 on Xtreme, but this boss is damn hard even on Normal. Keep, but this section could do without going over the individual attacks in dedicated sub-bullets.
  • Gate is quite unpredictable, and has total invulnerability to all of attacks save for his energy sphere attack. At that, he spends most of the time flying into you rather than using it. His attacks are extremely difficult to predict and retaliate with, since they need to be level with him, and then hit him in the face as they break from damage. Try doing all that over a bottomless pit where the only footing you'll ever get is a handful of small ledges. The "gates" that he spawns that you're supposed to damage him with don't make the battle any easier. One follows you around the room, another fires at you, yet another pulls you toward it, and they explode in six different directions, meaning you're likely going to be hit in one of them. When he Turns Red, he gains an attack that destroys those tiny little ledges that you're supposed to land on. Sub-Tanks are more or less a waste, since the usual cause of death here will be falling to your death due to Gate or his attacks flying into you. At least the game grants a tiny bit of mercy by giving you bottomless pit invincibility when you defeat him. Another infamous boss in the series, keep.
  • HIGH MAX is fought midway through the second Gate stage and is almost excessively brutal. While facing him before in the secret boss rooms was relatively easy given his lower health, here, he's beefed up and has new attacks, including two giant indestructible shields that you have to wait until he throws to hit him, a very hard to dodge ramming attack and using the shields to crush you. He can only be damaged by firing a charged shot at him and then his weakness. Combined with the fact he does high damage, yet himself takes very little and that he's nigh impossible to avoid properly, he's definitely one of the hardest bosses in the game by far. High Max doesn't have a weakness, all Maverick weapons do the same amount of damage to him. Also, getting to him in a regular level without a Maverick weapon in a stage makes him impossible to kill. Still an infamous boss for being equal parts difficult and tedious; keep.

Albert3105 Since: Jun, 2013
#561: Jul 31st 2020 at 7:46:34 PM

I am really not following your "cut all final bosses" opinion here, since this series (and the subseries alone!) has far more than enough final bosses to make it conceivable that some final bosses may be indeed harder than the series average of final bosses.

EDIT: Just noticed that you've spared Wily Capsule 7, so my point is moot.

Edited by Albert3105 on Jul 31st 2020 at 11:00:33 AM

CasualChris Since: May, 2020
#562: Jul 31st 2020 at 8:31:17 PM

[up]If I had to keep any of the Sigma fights, it would probably be Kaiser from X3. While I did state in my notes that he can be killed in two hits with the Z-Saber, it can have a long charge time depending on whether or not you picked up the buster upgrade, and you can be knocked out of the slashing animation by taking damage during it, canceling it entirely.

Considering that, his awkward hitbox, the fact that Kaiser sends a constant barrage after you for the entire fight, and you still have to climb a long shaft with rising lava while he tries to knock you in after killing him (where it's very much still possible to die, in which case you restart the fight from phase 1 and any Sub-Tanks you may have used effectively go to waste), it's easily the most punishing out of any of the final bosses within the first six games, no matter how prepared you are when you come in.

On the subject of Wily Capsule 7, all of the orb patterns are capable of being dodged by either baiting them into missing you or putting them in positions that make them easier to avoid, but it requires very specific sliding/jumping maneuvers depending on where Wily appears on the screen (which entirely depends on the Random Number God to determine), so it simply isn't feasible to expect knowing about/doing such consistently out of the average player.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#563: Jul 31st 2020 at 8:40:40 PM

I'm inclined to keep most, unless a number are just too easy

Karxrida The Unknown from Eureka, the Forbidden Land Since: May, 2012 Relationship Status: I LOVE THIS DOCTOR!
The Unknown
#564: Jul 31st 2020 at 9:13:33 PM

I'm good with CasualChris's changes, though man there's a bunch of Natter.

If a tree falls in the forest and nobody remembers it, who else will you have ice cream with?
DocSharp Since: Jun, 2011
#565: Jul 31st 2020 at 11:19:45 PM

I was around this thread a lot in the past and ended up regretting most of my work over here, so I kinda dipped out. Now, I, ah, kinda need to get involved because I think a mistake is being made. I feel many of the arguments above are ignoring how the fandom actually feels about the respective bosses. Yes, Elec Man can be cheesed out with the Mega Buster, but that doesn't change the fact that people constantly ask for help to beat him, and the fact that multiple walkthroughs specifically warn the reader of how much of a pain he is. Bospider is in a similar boat.

I'm also uncomfortable about using "Final Boss, cut" as an argument. The Final Boss rule itself may or may not have been agreed upon in the first place when this trope was first conceived twelve years ago and there's a legitimate argument that it needs to go. But even ignoring that, I am beyond certain that Wily Machine 9 and Wolf Sigma are considered hard as hell and possess the needed infamy to count. Also, I can vaguely remember that Wily 9 was already voted to keep, so cutting it now would go against consensus.

I can't vouch for every boss on that list, and I think you're right about a few of them (like the MM8 boss, which is usually considered to be annoying, but nothing special), but I'm seeing something similar in quite a few of them: the idea that, since there exists an easy way to beat it, it doesn't count, or if it's a final boss, it doesn't count, but those are not the point. If the fandom thinks it's nasty, that's all that matters. That's directly what the whole trope is supposed to be about.

Edited by DocSharp on Jul 31st 2020 at 11:19:54 AM

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#566: Jul 31st 2020 at 11:21:22 PM

[up] Thank you. Yeah, I'm in agreement. This extra level of requirement for "final boss can't count" is just overly restrictive in my view.

for a fandom reaction, YMMV trope no less.

Edited by Lightysnake on Jul 31st 2020 at 11:21:44 AM

Karxrida The Unknown from Eureka, the Forbidden Land Since: May, 2012 Relationship Status: I LOVE THIS DOCTOR!
The Unknown
#567: Aug 1st 2020 at 1:31:11 AM

It's already been made clear that Final Bosses can qualify, we just hold them to higher standards.

I feel like if the easy way to beat the boss is to abuse the Elemental Rock-Paper-Scissors (Which I'm pretty sure is mentioned a couple times? Text walls suck.) then it should be cut, at least for Mega Man. People know a Mega Man game is going to use a weakness system, so either 1) they're going to look up the weaknesses anyway without taking difficulty into consideration or 2) they know they should experiment and figure it out.

Plus some cheese strats can be easily observed and discovered without outside help. Toad Man (who isn't TOB material but w/e) can easily be stunlocked without even trying.

Edited by Karxrida on Aug 1st 2020 at 1:32:24 AM

If a tree falls in the forest and nobody remembers it, who else will you have ice cream with?
CasualChris Since: May, 2020
#568: Aug 1st 2020 at 6:18:59 AM

Thank you all for the feedback. After going through all of it, here's the decision that I've come to, taking things like fandom infamy into further consideration:

     Classic series 
  • Elec Man: Keep
  • Yellow Devil: Keep
  • Quick Man: Keep
  • Boobeam Trap: Keep and trim down
  • Doc Quick and Doc Wood: Keep
  • Slash Man: Keep and trim down
  • Wily Capsule 7: Definitely keep
  • MM8 Wily 1 boss (official name is Atetemino, btw): Cut
  • Dynamo and Burner: Keep
  • Wily Machine 9: Keep, add more info on phases 1 and 2
  • Yellow Devil Mk. III (from 11): Cut

     X series 
  • Launch Octopus: Keep
  • Sting Chameleon: Cut
  • Bospider: Keep
  • Wolf Sigma: Maybe re-add?
  • Magna Centipede: Cut
  • Violen: Cut
  • Zero: Cut
  • Volt Catfish: Cut
  • X3 Sigma/Kaiser Sigma: Keep but remove info on first phase, as it's very pattern based
  • Magma Dragoon: Keep, but put more of a focus on the difficulty of fighting him as Zero
  • General: Keep
  • X4 Sigma: Cut (the first 2 phases both have very easy to dodge attack sets, and the third phases only has one attack that's notoriously hard to avoid, that being the rock spitting)
  • Spiral Pegasus/The Skiver: Keep
  • Volt Kraken/Squid Adler: Cut
  • Shadow Devil: Keep
  • Gamma Sigma: Keep, but also add info on first phase, which is also not easy to deal with
  • Mijinion, High Max, Nightmare Mother, and Gate: Keep

Thoughts?

Edited by CasualChris on Aug 1st 2020 at 10:59:50 AM

thok That's Dr. Title, thank you! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Non-Canon
That's Dr. Title, thank you!
#569: Aug 1st 2020 at 6:51:10 AM

I'm mostly OK with the changes. The problem with the Megaman page is that there's just so many games(even with your work, that's only 1/3 of the way through), and previous cleanup efforts on the page have stalled out.

CasualChris Since: May, 2020
#570: Aug 1st 2020 at 7:47:58 AM

There is a lot of ground to cover, yeah. Someone else is gonna have to work on the ZX/Legends/Battle Network/Star Force sections, though, as those series are out of my jurisdiction. I can maybe do some work on the Fangames/ROM hacks sections, at least, but right now the Classic and X sections are my biggest priority.

Edited by CasualChris on Aug 2nd 2020 at 3:07:39 PM

CasualChris Since: May, 2020
#571: Aug 2nd 2020 at 12:15:50 PM

Alright, so the changes I suggested for the Classic series section have now been instated. I also went ahead and added King Plane back to the Mega Man & Bass section. He was removed a long while ago, but I couldn't leave out such a universally reviled boss from the TOB page, and pretty much everything I've seen about it says that it's one of many detriments to the game. I also made some other notable changes:

  • I moved the one Street Fighter x Mega Man example to the Fan Games folder. Although Capcom endorsed it, they didn't make it - it's still developed entirely by fans.
  • I removed Fuse/Boom Man from the Rock Force section in Fan Games since it mentioned one of his attacks being "almost hard to dodge", which seems to be the exact opposite of what a TOB entry is supposed to go for.
  • It should be noted that Rockman CX has five out of its eight main bosses listed in its section. From someone who's seen a lot of it, all of the bosses in the game, with the exception of Whispy Woods, could easily qualify as TOB. Cheat Man and Fire Mario can stay due to the Insane Troll Logic in their designs with many One-Hit Kill moves and infinite stunlocks, but Kamen Rider, Air Man, and Rockman should go, I think.
  • Removed the entries for Cockroach Omega and Super Shadow Man from the Rockman 4 Minus Infinity section, as the former is a Bonus Boss at the end of an optimal post-game Boss Rush, and the latter can only be fought if you get all the way to the end of the game without dying once (you also only get one attempt to beat him), which is obscure/hard enough to consider him a Bonus Boss.

thok That's Dr. Title, thank you! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Non-Canon
That's Dr. Title, thank you!
#572: Aug 12th 2020 at 4:40:49 PM

[up] Those changes are fine. Some random thoughts:

Mega Man Unlimited has a lot of bosses; I don't know enough about to game to say where the cuts should be.

The Make a Good Mega Man Level Contest 2 entry should add Chimerabot 4 (the Match Man + Force Man Chimera); the game is long enough to justify 6 bosses (being roughly 8 times the length of a typical Mega Man game), and Chimerabot 4 is arguably the most feared mandatory boss in the game (with only Autobounce being close in that category; Cheat Man and the Yggdrasil trio are skippable but not bonus bosses). That said, the Make A Good Mega Man Level page may need a clean up from this thread as well.

Zuxtron Berserk Button: misusing Nightmare Fuel from Node 03 (On A Trope Odyssey)
#573: Sep 23rd 2020 at 7:28:44 PM

Bumping to ask again about the Advanced Challenges on YMMV.Bloons Tower Defense. These are meant to be really difficult tests of skill, and they're only available for one day before disappearing forever. I think that should disqualify them from That One Level.

Albert3105 Since: Jun, 2013
#574: Sep 23rd 2020 at 9:59:36 PM

I was the one who added most of them, and in hindsight since many of those in the list were downright impossible in the first place, some of them should be moved to Unwinnable by Mistake.

Anyway, I do not believe that Advanced Challenges are disqualified by default - there's a difference between merely challenging and completely obnoxious to play (e.g. unintuitive tower combo vs. RNG and painful micromanagement), such as that one where you had to rely on a completely unreliable and randomly-placed magic spell to beat Bloons that constantly outrun that spell.

Edited by Albert3105 on Sep 23rd 2020 at 1:04:18 PM

Siegfried1337 Unofficial co-Wiki Curator for Magnificent Bastard from the Ashes Since: Sep, 2018 Relationship Status: A cockroach, nothing can kill it.
#575: Sep 24th 2020 at 4:25:08 PM

So I heard that there was going to be a discussion about a trope over here that was going to be to migrate the more annoying levels over from That One Level to there, since no counterpart to it exists unlike Goddamned Boss is to That One Boss. However, I need a few examples of annoying levels in order to get things started. Any suggestions?

MB Pending | MB Drafts | MB Dates

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