Graceless Exit
was discarded because it was deemed too similar to Failed Dramatic Exit. However, that trope's Example as a Thesis and the next and last paragraph only describe characters reentering and exiting again rather than tripping on their way out. Given the latter situation does occur in several examples, the description deserves broadening.
he/him
The last line of the Fan Nickname description is:
Television Without Pity was a fertile breeding ground for Live-Action TV nicknames during its heyday.
That feels more like an example than part of the intro - and The Nicknamer entry on the Television Without Pity page also makes it clear that many of those nicknames were not positive. DetractorNickname is a different thing - and joined the Permanent Red Link Club a while back.
Cut?
Disasturbator
Now a lurker. Thanks for everything. | he/him
he/him
Cut, with a link to this thread. If anyone wants to reinstate it, we can always discuss that here.
Thanks!
I've created a Trope Talk to discuss adding a paragraph to Alternate Self, I would appreciate if people gave me their opinion.
Born from a Dead Woman has a problematic section:
Also counts for cases where the mother was undead at the time of the birth, which can result in an Undead Child. Cases where the mother is brain dead but kept alive by life support can also count.
Despite the fantastic sounding concept, this has been known to happen in real life. Studies have shown that if the amniotic sac is intact a fetus can survive the death of the mother for a short period of time.
Accounts of this phenomenon go back centuries, where they were referred to as "coffin births" though only more recent cases are documented well enough to be considered real. Many historical cases are thought to be the result of the woman being Buried Alive back when it was more difficult to determine whether someone was really dead. The official term is post-mortem fetal extrusion.
The trope is explicitly about a viable birth that occurs after the woman's death. However "coffin births" are exclusively about non-viable expulsion as a result of the decomposition process of the mother's body. Cases that do not meet that very specific definition are not regarded as post-mortem fetal extrusion; what they're instead labelled as depends on what exactly happened and how it happened.
If a viable birth occurs after a woman's death, or a non-viable birth occurs because contractions had started before the woman's death, they're called "post-mortem delivery" instead, and are regarded as something different to post-mortem fetal extrusion. So, while the trope is very clearly inspired by the real-life phenomenon, it's not actually the same thing (because the point of the trope is a live birth).
I was wondering if the section could be rewritten, perhaps something like this:
Also counts for cases where the mother was undead at the time of the birth, which can result in an Undead Child.
Despite the fantastic sounding concept, this has been known to happen in real life. Studies have shown that if the amniotic sac is intact a fetus can survive the death of the mother for a short period of time. Many historical cases are thought to be the result of the woman being Buried Alive back when it was more difficult to determine whether someone was really dead. Modern examples can include cases where the mother is brain-dead but kept alive by life support. The official term for a viable birth that occurs after the woman's death is "post-mortem delivery".
There are accounts that go back centuries of women appearing to give birth after death, which are known as "coffin births", although only more recent cases are documented well enough to be considered confirmed examples. A "coffin birth" is properly called "post-mortem fetal extrusion" and always results in the expulsion of a non-viable fetus from the pressure being caused by decomposition gases building up within the mother's torso.
Disasturbator
that seems fine![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
I'm helping!
>A "coffin birth" is properly called "post-mortem fetal extrusion" and always results in the expulsion of a non-viable fetus from the pressure being caused by decomposition gases building up within the mother's torso.
Maybe rephrase this sentence? This makes it sound like it's a cause-and-effect, when what it is is the definition of a phrase.
Trouble Cube continues to be a general-purpose forum for those who desire such a thing.
How about:
>A "coffin birth" is properly called "post-mortem fetal extrusion", which is the expulsion of a non-viable fetus from the pressure being caused by decomposition gases building up within the mother's torso.
Edited by Wyldchyld on Jun 24th 2023 at 11:25:49 AM
If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
🍊orange fursona🧡
On Useful Notes.Tenses
I was going to as Golden Seals for this, but they got suspended. They had edited the description, which in my opinion, is a better description that the current one with the First Person tangent. I had been contacting the other guy who edited the one with the first person, but they're not responding. So I'm pressed on using GoldenSeals' version. Is it okay if I use GoldenSeal's version to edit Useful Notes.Tenses?
🍊orange fursona🧡
RE: ~Prfnoff on Example as a Thesis on Failed Dramatic Exit.
Hopefully you can extract elements from that discarded draft.
Edited by alnair20aug93 on Jul 1st 2023 at 5:51:36 PM
ᜇᜎᜈ᜔ᜇᜈ᜔|I DO COMMISSIONS|ᜇᜎᜈ᜔ᜇᜈ᜔
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Any feedback on my suggested tweak?
he/him
We've just had an ATT about Girls With Mustaches and an edit war on that page.
Now that's been resolved for the moment, is there any objection to making the guidance clearer for future - we're troping the character, so the gender of the performer playing them shouldn't matter for the purposes of the trope.
This aspect also means that Drag Queens with facial hair qualify as long as the character is presented as female.
If there's no objection, I'll work out some phrasing and bring it back here for review.
the Retromancer
Sounds good.
Bubble Boy's description and laconic are out of date when compared to the examples on the page. I did a wick check for it and TLDR, the description only talks about people literally living in bubbles and doesn't mention that the trope is actually about quarantined people in a more general sense.
I mainly fix indentation issues
Recently, I learned from another thread that the description for Dawson Casting included the following paragraph:
That's a bit odd because this is a trivia trope, which means that it shouldn't be played with. This paragraph is also unnecesary because there's another trope called Children Voicing Children that already functions as an averted version of Dawson Casting. When I checked the tropes page, lo and behold, there are many averted examples listed (most are on the DawsonCasting.Film and DawsonCasting.Live Action TV subpages):
- 3 Idiots: A particularly egregious example in the flashback scenes in which all of the characters were in their late teens to early twenties, being college students at all. At the time of filming, Aamir Khan (Rancho) was 43 and R. Madhavan (Farhan) was 38. Sharman Joshi (Raju) and Kareena Kapoor (Pia) were both in their late twenties. Narrowly averted with Omi Vaidya (Chatur), who was 26.
- Mostly averted in American Pie, where most of the kids aren't too far removed from high school age. Notable exceptions are 25-year-olds Alyson Hannigan and Shannon Elizabeth, and 23-year-olds Tara Reid and Seann William Scott.
- Bring It On — Some of the actors are in their 20s, most notably Gabrielle Union (age 27) during the first one, and Christina Milian (age 27) during Fight to the Finish. Though the trope was averted with
- Played straight, averted, and inverted in Click. Jonah Hill portrays the 17-year-old version of Adam Sandler's son at age 21, while 15-year-old Lorraine Nicholson portrays the 14-year-old version of Sandler's daughter, and Katie Cassidy portrays the 27-year-old version of Sandler's daughter at age 18.
- Dora and the Lost City of Gold: 11-year-old (at the time of filming) Malachi Barton plays 6-year-old Diego. Averted with Isabela Moner, who was 17. The older Diego, Sammy and Randy were played by actors in their early to mid 20s however.
- Face/Off: In the second half of the movie, 43-year-old John Travolta plays 30-year-old Castor Troy. Averted in the first half where 33-year-old Nicolas Cage is playing Castor.
- Somewhat averted, however, by the fact that (contrary to the popular belief that all the films center on teenagers) only the characters in the first and third film are supposed to be teenagers. The characters in the second, fourth and fifth films are actually meant to be in their twenties or older.
- Harold and Kumar in Harold & Kumar Go to White Castle. Played straight with John Cho, who, at 30, played a character two years out of college — but averted with Kal Penn, who was a relatively age-appropriate 26. By the time the sequel came around, this trope was played straight with both actors (35 and 31 respectively, playing their characters at 24-25 since the action picks up right where the first film left off).
- Both played straight and averted in the animated movie Mars Needs Moms. When it was released in 2011, Seth Green, who did the motion capture for 9-year-old Milo, was 37. He was originally slated to voice the character as well, but the creators realized he sounded too mature for a kid, and had him dubbed over by 11-year-old Seth Dusky.
- In Mask, the then-24-year-old Eric Stoltz played the 15- to 16-year-old Rocky Dennis. Granted, with all the makeup he had to wear to deform his face, it's less noticeable. Somewhat averted with Laura Dern, who was about 18 around the time it was filmed.
Permission to delete the paragraph and all the averted examples
Edited by SoyValdo7 on Jul 9th 2023 at 3:24:06 AM
Valdo
🍊orange fursona🧡
Most likely yes. I need another troper to agree or disagree on this.
I feel like this thread has little to no sense of agreement because this moves from one topic to another without any agreeing on disagreeing to the current or previous topic.
ᜇᜎᜈ᜔ᜇᜈ᜔|I DO COMMISSIONS|ᜇᜎᜈ᜔ᜇᜈ᜔
he/him
Agreed. I'm wondering if some of these warrant crowners in the same way that more structured threads work?
Also: yeah, I'd be in favour of cutting that one. As mentioned, Trivia can't be played with + we have another trope for voice. The radio folder can probably go as well.
Might be worth updating the Children Voicing Children intro to clarify that the Dawson Casting ref there is only for live action?
Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 10th 2023 at 11:05:58 AM
he/him
Any objection if I update Adapted Out to reference The Ghost in the intro?
I'm seeing a few examples that get "does not exist in adaptation continuity" mixed up with "does not appear onstage in the adaptation" (which still counts, but as a downplayed example).
We already reference Demoted to Extra there for the same reason.
Robot Names has a two-line description. One, if you don't count the list of related tropes. The example soft-split headers are doing the work of the description.
(she/her)
This isn't the soft split clean up thread but I didn't suggest merging all of the example into a solid example section and putting the info in the headers on the description.
Macron's notes
I just copy-pasted the headers into a bulleted list as a start. Brought up un-soft-splitting in that thread.
Where Euphemism Buster says:
Does it make sense to pothole "the person the speaker is talking to simply doesn't understand what they're trying to say" to Literal-Minded. Blunt Metaphors Trauma, Entendre Failure, or something else?
Edited by Malady on Jul 16th 2023 at 12:42:20 PM
Disambig Needed: Help with those issues! tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=13324299140A37493800&page=24#comment-576
Mrph1
The main scenario everyone I've spoken seems to say shouldn't count is a character that appeared in two adaptions, but don't appear in the crossover story or are even acknowledged. That's why my paragraph has this sentence: "While a specific work might connect to other adaptions that include the same characters, unless both versions of the character appear to some extent in the same work the trope should not be used."
So using Spider-Man: No Way Home for an example, Alternate Self would be used for the Raimi, Webb and MCU Spideys and the villains along with their original character pages for the Raimi and Webb films since they all appear. However everyone seems to agree that while these franchises have crossed over, Alternate Self shouldn't be added to the character folders for Raimi Harry Osborn and Webb Harry Osborn since neither of them meet or are even acknowledged in the NWH. People I've spoken to have said that including it is just trivia and doesn't really add anything.
Though now that I've described this I want to make a small edit to the sentence to include acknowledgement, since in this NWH scenario Raimi Peter mentions his MJ so Alternate Self should probably be used for her and MCU MJ. So the new sentence would be: "While a specific work might connect to other adaptions that include the same characters, unless both versions of the character appear or are at least acknowledged to some extent in the same work the trope should not be used."