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Aspie
topic
04:44:16 PM Sep 10th 2013
edited by 67.170.49.166
This is mostly a cosmetic issue, but why does the page for the game have "The Animation" tacked onto it all of a sudden?
LeithSol
11:26:19 PM Sep 10th 2013
edited by 69.172.221.2
I was just going to ask that myself. For some reason anime/persona4 just adds the "The Animation" by its self.

Persona 4
ChrisDV
12:29:48 PM Sep 11th 2013
It appears someone moved the Persona 4: The Animation page to Anime/Persona 4 & had a Custom Title Request in place, not realizing it would rename all of the Persona 4 pages, rather than leaving it as it was, creating this mess in the process.

It's annoying, as the reason The Animation had a separate page is because of the length of the sections related to the show in the first place, when a Redirect to the Character Sheet was all that was needed.
LucaEarlgrey
04:25:16 AM Sep 18th 2013
Fixed as of this post.
CybranGeneralSturm
11:38:51 AM Dec 17th 2013
edited by 71.127.33.163
It just happened again. Someone must have not gotten the message. After fixing it this time, find out who caused this mess and speak to them, please. We don't need an Edit War.
Larkmarn
topic
11:08:03 AM May 20th 2013
edited by 216.99.32.44
Saying "you're not me" keeps getting shoehorned in as Berserk Button, even though the Shadows never get angry (and usually in fact are happy that they have more power). I don't know what the best trope for it, though. Invocation is the closest I can find, but that definitely doesn't work.
Haesslich
topic
02:18:31 PM Dec 9th 2012
Given Marie's identity in Golden, and the persona of the MC, does her optional dungeon count as a shout out to the original tale as well?
PhysicalStamina
topic
09:21:33 PM Jul 1st 2012
During the Culture Festival, the English dub has Yukiko saying (in reference to Teddie), "that bear needs to be disappeared." Would this count as a "Blind Idiot" Translation even though it's only one line and the rest of the translation very solid?
FreezeFrame
08:48:46 PM Aug 8th 2013
I'm pretty sure it doesn't, since "disappeared" is a clear allusion to the Mob/Dictatorships killing malcontents and no one speaking of them again.
nirt
topic
01:16:20 PM Apr 9th 2012
Hey, who deleted the Nightmare Fuel page?! And why?
Nogard
10:40:08 PM Apr 12th 2012
edited by Nogard
Guess we should rebuild it. The only thing I remember being on there was Shadow Yosuke's laugh. And various odds and ends from the anime.
LanceOmikron
01:09:44 AM Apr 13th 2012
edited by LanceOmikron
Luckily, the High Octane Nightmare Fuel page for the entire Shin Megami Tensei series is intact and has a Persona 4 section. [1]
ChrisX
topic
04:49:45 PM Dec 23rd 2011
edited by ChrisX
Hey, why is Kanji considered The Heart, not his more traditional The Big Guy, sharing with Chie? If it was that one event, it's just one event and doesn't qualify as The Heart.

The Heart is NOT 'Guy who gives Get a Hold of Yourself, Man! once'...

Yu/Souji/Protagonist seemed fitting more this way if only because of his "CALM THE HELL DOWN" scene that avoids the worst end part.
ej92
topic
08:30:58 PM Nov 10th 2011
Just had to ask this but apparently someone had listed Aika as the replacement for the Hermit S-Link in the anime in the character section. Is this true? And if so, where's the source for this info?
Marioguy128
07:47:31 PM Nov 13th 2011
After looking around for a source and failing to find one, I removed the entry.
RedViking
01:27:42 PM Nov 30th 2011
As far as I know, that's pure fan speculation considering that Aika is an anime-only character and the fox has yet to show up.
Zef
topic
02:28:37 PM Nov 6th 2011
With the anime getting its own tropes that aren't necessarily associated with the game, they should probably be split into a separate page. Moreover, "Yu Narukami" is only the Canon Name as far as the anime is concerned, and is no more or no less valid than the manga's "Souji Seta." But he's still officially nameless in the game, and changing the entire Headscratchers page to fit only one adaptation is bad form.
Opunaesala
03:39:59 PM Apr 2nd 2013
His name is officially "Yu Narukami" in Persona 4 Arena as well, which seems to cement it as the Canon Name.
nirt
topic
08:21:33 AM Oct 22nd 2011
edited by nirt
Should we add a High Octance Nightmare Fuel or a Nightmare Fuel entry? There is one for the whole Shin Megami Tensei series, but even Persona 3 has its own Nightmare Fuel entry, and Persona 4 has enough terrifying moments of its own.
VeryMelon
10:41:37 PM Oct 28th 2011
Go for it.
RedViking
topic
01:00:08 PM Oct 21st 2011
I've noticed that people are adding tropes that apply to the anime now that it's currently airing. Shouldn't we make a separate page for the anime instead of putting everything on one page?
JoieDeCombat
01:39:32 PM Oct 21st 2011
If I had to guess, I'd say that one of the reasons it hasn't already been done is that the anime is, thus far, adhering very closely to the game. As a result, a separate article for the anime would consist mostly of the same tropes as are already listed on the game's page; the differences are minor so far so listing them on the same page is simpler.

I wouldn't have any objection to creating a separate page, but unless the anime ends up diverging more from the game than it has so far, I'm not sure it's really necessary.
Allhailthetv
topic
10:28:55 AM Aug 31st 2011
edited by Allhailthetv
I'm not sure that the pothole (in the caption under the page picture) to The Smart Guy for Teddie is quite accurate. Team Pet seems more accurate.
RedViking
topic
07:04:37 PM Mar 10th 2011
edited by RedViking
Concerning the Misaimed Fandom / Completely Missing the Point entry. I have to agree with ccoa that it should not go on the main page. That entry is extremely subjective and it has alot of assumptions that can't be proven or disproven. For that reason, it belongs under the Wild Mass Guessing entry.
ccoa
moderator
05:38:52 AM Mar 14th 2011
Thank you. :)
PersonaTroper
07:12:04 AM Mar 29th 2011
edited by PersonaTroper
Sorry, I'm restoring it. I think it's important and needs to be read. I also don't think this is WMG material. Normally it would be, but this game is an exception.

I'm adding the edit here to make matters clear, and I'd appreciate it if ccoa would try to talk things through instead of somewhat hostile variations on "you're wrong and I'm deleting your entry." That's annoying.

Edit log:
[Persona Troper posts original entry]
[ccoa] Long rant that is in first person and belongs on Just Bugs Me or Wild Mass Guessing.
[Persona Troper reposts.]
[Persona Troper] Um, 1) It's not a rant. 2) It's not in first person, except for two sentence. Since we're a buttload more informal than wikipedia, that should be fine. I agree it's too long, though. How is this?
[ccoa] Completely Missing The Point is for characters in-universe. It's not about fandoms nor a platform to rant against said fandom.
[Persona Troper reposts under Misaimed Fandom.]
[Persona Troper] Okay, sounds like someone is suffering from a serious case of Serious Business. And I already told you, this is *not* a rant.
[ccoa] 1) Misaimed Fandom is a YMMV trope and doesn't belong on main pages and 2) that has nothing to do with what that trope is even about. Stop misusing tropes. This page is about tropes present in the work - information about fandoms belongs on the YMMV tab (under the CORRECT trope or audience reaction) or should be discussed on the forums, the Just Bugs Me page, or the discussion page. If you have a problem with this policy, there are places to discuss it, and I'd be happy to talk with you on the discussion page, but I'm not going to let you misuse tropes for your long-winded rant (yes, a rant) against how the fandom missed this.
[Persona Troper reposts.]
[Persona Troper] Goodness gracious ccoa. Calm down. I'll repeat that this is not a rant. I am posting this for a simple reason: This is a critical part of Persona 4. It's a subtle detail that's fallen by the wayside, but the game makes such a strong point out of "searching for the truth" and "looking past deceit" that while ordinarily this kind of material might be WMG/YMMV-type material, here that's not the case because it intentionally serves as a subtle test of the player's ability to truly grasp the theme at hand. And I don't know where you get so full of yourself that you feel entitled to judge and delete my entry as you please without even trying to talk things through.

So, lets talk.
whisp
02:03:25 PM Mar 29th 2011
edited by whisp
Sorry, but ccoa is right. The rant is talking about "players who miss a point," and therefore is a YMMV thing by its own admission. Besides which, the entire scene operated on Rule of Funny. Yes, the game displays its messages throughout many of its events, but the King's Game isn't one of them —being funny trumps any other WMG you, as a member of the audience, may see in it. And even if this interpretation were correct, it remains an interpretation by dint of not being directly acknowledged by the game, but rather being Fan Wank attributed to it, which STILL makes it YMMV. IOW, you're reading too much into a scene that was meant for comedy above all else, and then complaining about players who don't see it the exact same way you do. Therefore, it's not a trope that is present in the work, but something related to audience reactions.

Also, ccoa's comments on each edit WERE attempts to talk it out, to help you understand the point. They sound reasonable enough, and explain the motive for each deletion.
RedViking
02:40:49 PM Mar 29th 2011
In addition, you're acknowledging that it is WMG material and then saying that it isn't because it makes sense 'if viewed a certain way.' You're trying to pass something off as a fact when it isn't and then telling us that we're missing the point when we disagree with you.

Just put it under the WMG page. No one will complain if you put it there.
PersonaTroper
04:22:11 PM Mar 29th 2011
edited by PersonaTroper
Okay, first, again. It's not a rant. It really isn't. I don't have any "harsh feelings" or anything like that, so please stop calling it a rant. You're putting words in my mouth, and I don't like that. I've just been placing it because I think it's information to share.

And I don't really believe ccoa was trying to talk it out or anything. If I put a trope under the wrong heading, you don't delete it. You change the heading to the right trope. Ccoa's edits seemed more like grabbing one excuse after the other to delete the entry with. It's not friendly. It's not communicative. It's just a game of ccoa making a judgment and me having to cater to - possibly - ever-changing whims designed to make me give up. I'm sorry. Try to understand it from my perspective.

I understand Rule of Funny, but I think when you have material like Yukiko not even remembering what happened last night, that's more than Rule of Funny. That's a sign she really was drunk last night. That, and the details I mention in the entry, might not be enough to come to the conclusions I did - maybe I really am just reading into things too deeply. But to me the context of the game is important: it's a detective-themed game - it wants you to analyze events and draw the conclusions. It tries to mislead you. And it has stuff like Adachi being the real villain without any real setup - you're just meant to deduce that by process of elimination - and the only hints about Izanami are in the interface, the school trip story, and you realizing there are still some unanswered questions to investigate. With this context, I do think they're secretly testing the player with the funny scene. Hovering under the radar is just like them. So to me, the trope is in the work because the test of the audience is in the work, so the audience's reaction is intentionally provoked by the work.

I'm sorry, what do you think is wrong with my logic? Saying "you're reading into it too much" is easy, but look at the specific points, and why else would they be there?

For now, I put it under YMMV as Caits Meow not-so-nicely suggested.
ccoa
moderator
04:28:15 PM Mar 30th 2011
edited by ccoa
Look, I am a curator for this page. You made a bad edit that was not salvageable in my opinion, so I removed it and explained why I removed it. That's what Wiki Curators do, and I'm not going to apologize for that.

What you have continually placed on the page is your opinion only, and you placed it, not once but twice, under a completely unrelated trope. In fact, by placing it on the YMMV page, you're still misusing the trope.

Misaimed Fandom is when the audience's reaction to the work is unintended by the author. You have no evidence that what reaction was intended by the author. Short of a Word of God, I'm not sure there's any way to resolve how that scene was "meant" to be received, even assuming there was an intended reaction at all. Your interpretation of the scene has been called into question, not only here, but by other members of the fandom by your own admission. It's essentially your opinion on the scene versus theirs. No matter how much you believe your interpretation is correct, you have no way to prove this.

The entry is wrong. It is long and full of justifications and word cruft, an automatic flag for a bad entry. It uses first person (which, despite our informal tone, is not allowed on the main wiki). It misuses a trope. It better belongs on WMG or Just Bugs Me, plain and simple.
PersonaTroper
02:10:24 PM Apr 8th 2011
edited by PersonaTroper
*Sigh*

Well, there's a warning sign: You self-identify as a Wiki Curator so you wont apologize for your actions. I read that page, and from what I can tell from that it basically means you occasionally check a page to make sure people don't do dumb stuff on it. In my opinion, the title is going a little to your head and the ability to call yourself a Wiki Curator seems to give you an inflated opinion of yourself where you view yourself as some kind of authority on what is and isn't a good edit beyond the rest of us. So much so, that the entire way you've been "discussing" with me is by passing down various judgments on why my post is meaningless to your eyes.

An ordinary person would understand it would be good to try to talk things through and reach an understanding. A self-appointed authority such as yourself just likes to pass judgment on why I'm wrong and will try to bulldoze your way past everything I am saying. This is the impression I am getting from you, and like you so brazenly said, you are not going to apologize for that.

Now about Misaimed Fandom, I've explained that there is evidence (passing out, not remembering what happened last night, serious drunkenness, and a rather plausible case for getting drinks) you have to overlook in order to see it as "they weren't actually drinking" and the game has a theme of "don't overlook unanswered questions" and "don't take the easy way out." Sure there isn't an official word on the subject (and I ain't sure there will be: I hear Japan has rules against depicting underage drinking, esp. when you make it look really fun.), but I think my interpretation is very plausible and legitimate enough. You say I'm misusing the trope by putting it on the "Your Mileage May Vary" tab because not everyone agrees with me. But as I see it, that's exactly what qualifies it for the YMMV tab.

Next you tell me the entry is bad because it's long and full of justifications. I agree it's a little long and has a bunch of justifications, but I disagree that's bad because this is about detective work. Plus, I've already cut down on it to make it shorter. Also, when you say my entry is full of "word cruft," I'm raising an eyebrow, 'cause honestly word cruft is such a freebie when you want a silly excuse for saying someone is doing it wrong. I think your post is full of word cruft. Right now, there is just as much reason to what I say about your post as what you say about my entry. If it's long and wordy or crufty, let me know where and how it's a problem, so I can fix it. Stop using them as excuses to keep deleting this over and over again.

On to the first person thing, for crying out loud, again, tell me what's the problem with my use of it. I'm just being informal here, and you know it.

And last, you're telling me "It better belongs on WMG or Just Bugs Me, plain and simple." The "plain and simple" proves to me you're not trying to reach an understanding or talk this through. You just want to pass judgment and end it there. You're not being helpful. You don't even try to be. You're almost trying to be the opposite: A stone wall.

*Exhales* Sheeesh.

Okay, next time you go do your edit and posting thing, I want you to remember the following:
  1. You are an ordinary person. You're not better than me or anyone else here (and I don't think I'm better than anyone either). You have no special rights to make decisions for the rest of us.
  2. When you think there is a problem, you have to explain where the problem is and why it's a problem.

If you don't keep this in mind, I don't think there's much hope in trying to resolve this with you.

*Exhales again*

Sorry if I'm giving you a hard time. And please, try not to take anything too personally.

Thank you, and I hope you have a nice day.
SpellBlade
03:47:03 PM Apr 8th 2011
"On to the first person thing, for crying out loud, again, tell me what's the problem with my use of it. I'm just being informal here, and you know it."

Read the page This Troper.

Informal and breezy =/= opinion blog.
ccoa
moderator
09:38:27 AM Apr 9th 2011
edited by ccoa
First, your opinion is not enough to put this on the YMMV page. Misaimed Fandom is an Audience Reaction, not a subjective trope. I realize it is confusing that YMMV tropes get lumped with audience reactions, but audience reactions are not necessarily subjective. An audience reaction is Exactly What It Says on the Tin - how the audience of a work reacts to the work. Draco in Leather Pants is not subjective - it objectively happens. It goes on the YMMV tab because it's an audience reaction and thus has nothing to do with the work, not because it's subjective. Similarly, Misaimed Fandom objectively happens - we can go to the Eragon fandom and find people who think the Empire are good guys, for example.

There are no solid indications in the work or outside it how the scene is "meant" to be interpreted (yours are flimsy, at best). Thus, we can't call an audience reaction of Misaimed Fandom on it.

Second, I am not the only person telling you it is a bad edit. You focusing on me and attacking me personally won't change that. Two other people people here in this very discussion topic have agreed with me. I may not have more "power" than you, but I do have much more experience maintaining pages and spotting bad edits (and correcting them). Yours is yet another in a long, long line of them that I've seen. The only difference here is that you refuse to admit it's a bad edit, making my job that much harder. Wikis work on consensus - and you are one person against several.

If it will make you feel better about it, I have no problem calling in a mod to form a final opinion on the edit, though. If you can't accept my word and experience on it, perhaps that will be enough.
MetaFour
moderator
11:04:50 AM Apr 9th 2011
edited by MetaFour
Moderator intervening. If Pesona Troper is correct about the characters in question being rip-roaring drunk, then it's In-Universe Frothy Mugs of Water.

No need to call it Misaimed Fandom or Completely Missing the Point, since those add nothing more than a gratuitous Take That at people who interpret the scene differently. On what basis can we say that an interpretation is wrong? We can't look to Word of God: as Persona Troper admits, there's no official statement on how that scene is supposed to be interpreted, and it's very unlikely that there will be.
Madrugada
moderator
11:10:35 AM Apr 9th 2011
edited by Madrugada
<Mod Hat ON>

Persona Troper, when the validity of an entry is under discussion, it's bad form to keep adding it back on the page.

Misaimed Fandom does not apply to alternate interpretations of situations, like "were they drunk or just being silly?". It's defined as the audience seeing a something as other than what the author intended it to be (a character intended to be a hateful villain is seen as a Woobie; an ad that's supposed to make the viewer want to buy the product instead leaves them preferring the competitors version. Things like that.) I'm not seeing how that applies to "were they drunk or not?". So even if the alternate view of the scene is accurate, it's not an example of a Misaimed Fandom.

Mod ruling: It's not an example of a Misaimed Fandom or Completely Missing the Point. Leave it off the main page and the YMMV page. Put it on the WMG page if you want.

<Mod Hat OFF>

Ninja'd by Meta Four, but with the same conclusion.
ccoa
moderator
12:55:48 PM Apr 9th 2011
Thank you both for settling this.
PersonaTroper
10:07:00 PM Apr 9th 2011
edited by PersonaTroper
Spell Blade, *sigh*, what makes my use of the first person a problem, other than the fact that the rules don't like first person? The page provides specific reasons why this is a bad practice - am I guilty of any of those reasons? As I see it, I'm not.

ccoa, on the consensus thing: The others on this thread stepped out of this discussion after I responded. Neither of us can say whether they changed their minds on it or if they went neutral. Counting their "votes" is disingenuous when we can't speak for them and this isn't even a voting process. It's a discoursive process.

Meta Four, Madrugada, maybe it would be better if we can find a mod who has played Persona 4, since the nature of the scene and game play heavily into this discussion. The reason it becomes Misaimed Fandom is because the Anvilicious overriding theme/moral of the game is that you should see past deceit, avoid the easy answers, and keep on searching for the truth. It's not just An Aesop: the entire game, start to finish, is completely centered around this. This scene becomes an application of that theme to test whether the audience truly gets it or not. People who misinterpret this scene have not only misinterpreted the scene in particular - they have also failed to learn the lesson of the game. And testing the audience like this is perfectly in line with the game.
ccoa
moderator
11:29:06 PM Apr 9th 2011
edited by ccoa
One would think that if they'd changed their minds, they would have said so. They cared enough to voice objections to the edit, after all, which is actually fairly rare and takes more than just passing interest in my experience.

Your entire argument hinges on your assumption that your interpretation of the scene is the "correct" one, and therefore anyone who does not see it your way is "wrong". Your evidence for you being right is not convincing and conveniently ignores evidence to the contrary - such as other characters not being affected by the "alcoholic" drinks. It's an interesting theory, may even be right, and fits very much on Wild Mass Guessing, but all it is is a fan theory.

And honestly, this is probably my last post on the subject unless my input is needed later. You got at least two (possibly three, I'm not sure how much Blackcat looked into the matter) mods to review the evidence, and their word is the final one as far as us ordinary tropers are concerned. As far as I know, none of the mods are that into Eastern RPGs (at least, I've never seen any of them active in any of the RPG threads that I can recall), so I don't think your request can be honored.
RedViking
12:00:12 AM Apr 10th 2011
edited by RedViking
Ok, first of all, stop assuming Persona Troper. It's a mistake to claim that I "stepped out" of this discussion because I've actually been keeping an eye on this. I've already stated that I think you're wrong not once, but twice. Why are you saying you can't be sure of my opinion unless I repeat myself? Had I changed my mind, I would have said so. Don't try to nullify what others have said just because they haven't spoken up in awhile.

Second of all, let it go. You've gotten two mods involved and they've already had their say. The other mods are not going to go behind their backs and reverse their decisions. And don't presume to tell the mods what they should or should not do. It's a quick way to get yourself banned.
PersonaTroper
04:39:00 PM Apr 10th 2011
edited by PersonaTroper
ccoa, I totally agree that my argument hinges on my interpretation being correct. It goes without saying that I think it is. Your counter-evidence that not everyone's affected by the alcohol seems weak to me - you know not everyone gets affected the same and not everyone drinks the same amount. Plus, even Chie says "Aw sheesh, I was wondering why it's so hot" when the possibility of alcohol gets brought up, and even Yosuke was wondering at the end if his massive headache is what a hangover is like. Moreover, there's no other good explanation for Yukiko's antics. Do you really think she'd be the type to let loose at a club because she's riding high on the atmosphere? That she'd even keep it up after Naoto kills the mood two or three times? I'd love an explanation on why the next day Yukiko asks "Um... what happened last night? I don't remember much about it...", Rise responds, "Oh, I think the two of us fell asleep quick. I hear it got pretty wild, though." (ie. she does not remember either.), and then Yukiko responds, "I see... I don't remember at all..." I have some fairly incontrovertible evidence that they were drinking and a plausible explanation on how it could happen.

Red Viking, to me, stepping out of the discussion only meant you were no longer talking with us, which was true at the time. I wasn't making assumptions about you or anything, and I didn't mean to imply you excused yourself or anything. What I was trying to say was that we shouldn't assume anything about what you're saying unless you step up and say it. I'm sorry if it seemed like I did just that. That wasn't my intention at all.

Second, it's not my intention to "go behind the mods' backs" or "presume to tell the mods what they should or shouldn't do". When I asked for another mod who has played the game to make a call, I was asking that directly from the mods who made theirs. They both pointed out that an alternate scene interpretation doesn't constitute a Misaimed Fandom, but my point is that here it is because this scene is also a test to see if the audience grasps the theme of the game. I don't think I'm getting uppity for asking if there is a mod who has played the game to make the call about whether subtle game details merit a trope entry or not. I'd appreciate it if you don't try to paint me black for asking this.

If there are no mods who played Persona 4, here at least are the YouTube videos of the drinking scene and aftermath: (FYI: The scene's hilarious - you should watch it anyway.)

And the entry I was trying to add:
  • Misaimed Fandom: A surprisingly large number of players believe that the cast weren't actually drinking alcohol in Club Escapade just because Naoto stated (with conviction) that the bar doesn't serve alcohol anymore. These players seem to have completely missed the game's Anvilicious moral of "confronting/searching for the truth and not accepting the easy answer in front of your eyes." Details: Were they really drunk? Yes. Yukiko isn't the sort to get drunk off the atmosphere, plus she and Rise were completely plastered by the end. Didn't the bar stop serving alcohol? Nope! Remember the monk Mutatsu from Persona 3 (Towers at Club Escapade)? He said "The more you try to act like an adult, the more you seem like a child." and Naoto asked a nightclub if they serve alcohol. The bartender was just messing with her because this really shouldn't concern her. So how'd they get the drinks? Simple: Rise. She has the experience and connections, and the club owed her a favor. She even says "I told them to make them non-alcoholic" - ie. she needs to specify to avoid getting booze. And I'd bet your eyes were rolling too when she first said that line.

That makes the case why I see my interpretation as correct, but I guess it's mostly Take Our Word for It when it comes to the game having a really heavy, overarching theme of searching for the truth and not allowing yourself to be mislead. I can point out the endings feature this player-testing too: It has two sorta good endings once you discover the copycat killer wasn't at fault and pile everything on the villain you find towards the end: one if you kill him (with his method) and one if you don't - our villain won't really get arrested because his murder method was literally fantastical - the cops didn't have evidence to pin him. Another ending for figuring out it couldn't have been all him without figuring out the rest. Then there is a happy ending for finding out who was responsible for the rest of it. And then a true ending if during the Playable Epilogue you had the good sense to realize you weren't done yet and had to find out where it all started. The game won't even tell you there was more to it when it ends, so most people don't make it to the true ending, and a fair few get tripped up before then.
ccoa
moderator
09:38:22 PM Apr 10th 2011
edited by ccoa
*sigh*

I cannot believe you are this worked up over this. Why is this so important to you?

There is more than enough counterevidence to cast doubt on this interpretation of events.

1. The other characters do not act at all intoxicated. Yes, different people have different tolerances, but they are all children who have limited experience with alcohol and thus would be expected to very susceptible to alcohol because they have absolutely no consumption tolerance.

2. Chie says it's hot... And? Have you never been in a nightclub before? Lots of people, lots of lights, and lots of electrical equipment means that they get very warm. Many of them provide balconies to the outside so that people can cool down (and now that there are no-smoking laws, so they can smoke, but the balconies predate the laws).

3. Yosuke gets a headache. After staying up very late in a nightclub with bright lights and loud music with heavy bass. There's more than one plausible explanation for a headache after a night like that. A hangover is caused by dehydration brought on by alcohol, which takes more than a drink or two. He should have been noticeably drunk if he drank enough to be hung over the next day.

4. Do I think Yukiko is the type of girl to act drunk if she thinks she's drunk? Possibly. She's naive, sheltered, and somewhat immature. I've seen plenty of kids act drunk or stoned after being told they've had alcohol or "special" brownies, even if there's nothing in them or they've only had a sip of beer. Yes, even after someone tells them the truth.

5. The girls claim to remember nothing. I've also seen kids that were barely buzzed the night before claim to remember nothing, either because they are embarrassed by their behavior and wish to forget it or because that's what they think they should be saying. Heck, I myself have done this. You're willing to say the bartender must have lied, but it's completely out of the question that the girls were lying?

6. Alcohol has a very distinctive, strong taste which is very much like it smells. A virgin drink has a very different taste than its corresponding alcoholic version. It's not that believable that none of the characters recognized an alcoholic drink. Surely they've smelled sake before? Had a virgin drink? Maybe a sip of something alcoholic at some point?

So, no, not incontrovertible. Not even close. Solid enough for a fan theory, not solid enough to say "this is definitely how the scene was meant to be taken, and anyone taking any opposing theory is a part of a Misaimed Fandom." Even assuming that it would fit Misaimed Fandom even if you were correct, which the mods have already ruled that it wouldn't.
Morven
moderator
10:24:51 PM Apr 10th 2011
To give another mod's opinion, ccoa is completely right here. Without anything showing what the creators were actually thinking and intending, you're solidly in the realm of fan theories, and one that doesn't seem to have consensus. That's WMG territory.

And we don't write in first person because it doesn't work with the "voice" that we've determined the Wiki should be written in. You don't get to rerun that argument because you don't like it.
PersonaTroper
01:52:37 PM Apr 13th 2011
edited by PersonaTroper
I had a long post here, but it got deleted. I also notice ccoa and others have been talking (and making decisions) about me and this behind my back, and nobody's been telling me squat.

I guess this is the TV Tropes brand of love? Real classy, guys.

For the crazy person who wants in on this, here.
Bluesunnyday
03:22:47 PM Aug 21st 2011
"I guess this is the TV Tropes brand of love? Real classy, guys." Look, there's no need to be rude here, sir. The only thing is, that isn't what Misaimed Fandom means. If you want, put it on WMG. In fact, you'll be sure to find plenty of people on there to discuss it with. The only thing is, the scene is left up in the air. Unless Word of God comes out and says "Oh, by the way, those drinks were spiked.", then you can add something on the main page. But until then, this remains firmly in WMG territory. Okay?
VeryMelon
10:41:12 PM Oct 28th 2011
I'm pretty sure he's gone. Won't miss him though.
CCMars
topic
05:51:52 AM Dec 31st 2010
edited by CCMars
Folks, I didn't think I'd have to remind you of this, but apparently you need it.

When it comes to Alternate Character Interpretations or whatever the WHARRGARBL of the day is, I don't care what side of the debate you're on, nor whether you think someone isn't thinking or whatever excuse you have: DON'T BE RUDE.

Thank you.
ccoa
moderator
topic
09:03:33 PM Oct 31st 2010
Before I begin: I think Hey, It's That Voice!, Expy, and Shout-Out are ridiculously long and should be trimmed down/removed/banished to the Trivia page. Any opinions?

Removed:

  • Drinking Game: After Rise and Yukiko get unintentionally sauced (but not really), they get the others to play the utterly hilarious King's Game.
    • "Not really"? You're kidding, right? No sober person sounds anything like that. Either Naoto is terrible at her job or those are some soft drinks...
    • Placebo Effect, much?

Because that's not a Drinking Game. And:

Because that's not that trope, either.

Removed the following from Everything's Worse with Bears:

Your Milage May Vary since Teddie can be a good character, even if his healing isn't as good as Yukiko's... but look at him! You want that little blonde!
  • Not quite accurate. Teddie gets Mediarahan the same as Yukiko, which fully heals the party, regardless of magic stat. The only thing he doesn't get is Salvation which heals and cures status ailments, but he gets Amrita which takes a separate turn to cast to do the same thing.
    • And his ice spells are more powerful than Chie's.

Since it was inaccurate and attracting natter.

Removed:

  • Gag Boobs: when the group goes to the hospital for a medical check-up, Rise was shocked when she saw Naoto's measurements. The latter quickly snatched the results away before anything was revealed, however...
    • We get to see for ourselves in the hot springs scene later in the game. Judging by the way she fills out that towel, Naoto is definitely much better endowed than her normal outfit would lead you to believe. Certainly nothing impossible, but enough that it's hard to blame Rise for being surprised.

That's not Gag Boobs.

And:

Repair, Don't Respond, guys.

And:

  • Opposite-Sex Clone: For those of you with the art book, take a look at the protagonist. Now take a look at Izanami's human form.

Again, not that trope. Doesn't anyone read tropes before adding them?

NOT THIS TROPE.

Nightraid
03:35:57 AM Nov 1st 2010
I have to disagree on the Gag Boobs point. It is very much a example of this trope, as 1. It implies that Naoto has a unexpectedly large bust, and 2. it's played for laughs.
ccoa
moderator
05:53:59 AM Nov 1st 2010
In order to be Gag Boobs, they have to be exaggerated or cartoonishly large, and they have to be used regularly for humor. One throwaway joke is not regularly, and they are not outlandishly large from her Christmas character portrait.
ccoa
moderator
08:53:56 PM Nov 3rd 2010
Okay, since no one cares, I went ahead and chopped it. If someone wants to put it on the Trivia page or something or find a way to put it back on the page so it isn't so long, feel free.

From Hey, It's That Voice!, because it's freaking ridiculously long:

From Expy, since this is all speculation:
  • Rise looks like Nena Trinity with different hair color and no freckles? Doesn't help that they have the same seiyuu and they take the non-combat stance mostly...
  • Also Namatame seems to be a close Expy to Super Robot Wars' Wilhelm von Juergen.
  • The Protagonist and Naoto look like recolors of Light and L respectively, and that particular "close-up frantic writing in a notebook" cutscene.
  • Speaking of Death Note, Adachi certainly bears a close resemblance to Matsuda, with the rookie personality and all. Though with Adachi...
  • Ayame is very similar to pre time skip Hinata in terms of both personality and hair cut.

I didn't touch Shout-Out, but it still seems rather long to me.
Darkaros
09:22:55 AM Mar 22nd 2011
edited by Darkaros
Dragged the Hey, It's That Voice! examples to Trivia, since it was starting to re-attract "X is also Y!" examples (yet) again. Thanks for archiving instead of just zapping.

Edit: Even after reorganization and removal of Natter, the list is still ridiculous. Might move to seperate page later.
200.19.179.37
topic
07:27:21 AM Oct 14th 2010
edited by 200.19.179.37
there is Conversation In The Character Page about wheter or not Naoto is good edowned. It adds nothing and it's annoying. I suggest to remove the natter.
RedViking
topic
01:38:24 PM Aug 4th 2010
edited by RedViking
I'm just going to paste what I said under the Persona3 discussion since it's the same thing:

The reason I deleted the Official Couple entry is because it got a bunch of JustifyingEdits beneath it. That should be a huge clue that people disagree with the initial statement. "The hundreds of tropers" as you put it most likely tolerated the entry not because it was correct, but because they saw (or were the ones who added) those justifying edits.

You make a lot of arguments about who the "main" love interest. Your argument, however, is one-sided in that it doesn't take the feelings of the main character into account. This is important because, in this instance, the protagonist can choose who his love interest is. Because of that, we really need clarification from Word Of God before we go about declaring who the Official Couple is. Again, "Canon has a crush on the hero so that's close enough" is not the same thing as Official Couple.

Now, if I am mistaken and Atlus has done so, then feel free to correct me and re-add the entry. But, until then, your description falls under Implied Love Interest.
Darkdata
topic
11:56:06 PM Jul 6th 2010
Thank you tvtropes, from keeping me from crying my eyes out about a certain characters possible perma death. Thank you.
Kuruni
12:08:19 AM Jul 7th 2010
You known...I were already spoiled before that event, known that she will be safe. Yet can't help but drop controler for few minutes.
SpaceDrake
topic
06:48:05 PM Mar 25th 2010
Also: at this point, I'm beginning to wonder if all of the spoilers about Naoto's true gender should be removed. I mean, really, It's Her Sled; it is virtually impossible to avoid spoilers about that at this point if you look at ANY media for the game. Also also I move that the It Was His Sled entry should be restored to the main page, since it's a meta-narrative trope that addresses the work as well as a character.
SomeNewGuy
07:07:12 PM Mar 25th 2010
I say remove them. I wasn't even aware Naoto's gender was meant to be a spoiler.
Rebochan
02:27:15 PM Jan 9th 2011
So it's months late, but I just did it. It's kind of silly to keep tagging it anymore.
Blacknumber
10:34:50 PM Aug 16th 2011
Naoto's death is SUPPOSED to be a spoiler though. I don't think you guys should decide that it isn't anymore because [Fan Myopia you think/thought it was extremely obvious]. In this case, the spirit of the spoiler is more important, don't you think?
Blacknumber
10:35:29 PM Aug 16th 2011
Not only did I completely retard up that pothole but I said Naoto's death. Sheesh, what's wrong with me.
SpaceDrake
topic
06:42:56 PM Mar 25th 2010
The whole "Nanako shouldn't get hurt" thing under Fridge Logic is getting natterish at this point, I think; should it all be deleted? I explained pretty clearly why it isn't Fridge Logic (Teddie explains it toward the beginning of the game, although it is kind of easy to forget by then.)
back to VideoGame/Persona4

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