Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

I just added it to Lighty's to-do list.
BTW, looking at the entry I do believe Daemon Spade could possibly count. I can add that to MY to-do list for this weekend. He has 4 votes.
Looks like Smith (6) and Dane also both have enough votes.

edited 27th Mar '15 12:55:19 PM by ACW

CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts

Regarding the Little Man in the original Pinocchio, apparently the book describes him as a "horrid little being".

I don't know what that says about whether he's portrayed as a karmic force but I thought I'd mention it.

I'll throw out a keep vote for Smith and Daemon. And a no to the Little Man, and the Coachman from Pinocchio. I'm sorry, I can't see either in this trope. Both seem like forces of nature and have questionable moral agency. Kind of similar to the Soul Piper from Inuyasha in that they are just a punishment for bad children and have no real personality or character to speak of.

If we count the Coachman, we might as well count the Soul Piper too, because they are pretty much the same.

edited 27th Mar '15 2:15:08 PM by Klavice

I just saw Gamera Vs Barugon. Here is an effort post on Onodera:

Who is he?

Onodera is a member of a large group trying to retreave an egg (which they believe to be an opal). The egg had been found long ago by the groups leader during his time in WW 2. The leader had hid it in a cave to come back for years later, and now the leader wants to have his men recover it for him.

What does he do?

Well, after he and two teammates (Kawajiri and Keisuke) are sent to retreave the egg, Onodera gets stuck in quicksand . Kawajiri and Keisuke save him. When the three find the egg, Onodera sees a deadly scorpion on Kawajiris neck and lets him get stung and killed. Onodera than seals the cave of the egg with an explosive, planning to kill Keisuke, keep the egg for himself, desert his force, and go back home with the egg all by himself. This is despite the fact that the egg isn't even his (it belonged to the leader), and Kawajiri and Keisuke had earlier saved his life. Making this even worse is the fact that Keisuke is the leaders brother. Onodera takes a ship back home. The egg is exposed to infrared lights, and hatches into Barugon, destroying the ship and Kobe Harbor, no doubt causing countless deaths. Onodera somehow survives and gets back home. As Barugon starts wrecking havoc and killing everyone, all Onodera can think of is the egg (which he still thinks is an opal), not caring at all about all the people who lost their lives on the ship or at the port. Onodera goes to the leader for help with retreaving the "opal" (which he does not know no longer exists). He says "I had to kill two men for it" revealing his betrayal. Onodera than beats up the leader (who needs a crutch to walk) and his wife, steals the leaders wallet, and burns their place down, killing them. When Keisuke (who survived the cave in and had returned with Karen, a native from the island where they found the egg) arrives and confronts Onodera about all he's done, Onodera tries to kill him, pulling out a knife and shouting "Die!". While not actually addressed, it is probably safe to assume he was planning to kill Karen too, as she was standing right there and would have been a witness. Later, when the military tries to lure Barugon underwater with a diamond and drown her, Onodera shows up and fucks it all up by trying to steal the diamond, knowing that without it, the military will have a hard time defeating Barugon and she could go on to cause even more deaths. Onodera steals the diamond, threatening to shoot anyone who tries to stop him. Onodera attempts to leave with the diamond, but Barugon eats both him and the diamond.

Redeeming features?

No.

Is he truly bad by the standards of the film?

Barugon has a WAY higher bodycount, but she's just a big dumb monster with no sentience or moral agency.

Is he bad enough to meet the baseline?

Well he kills three people (one of whom saved his life and another of whom needed a crutch to walk), tries to kill the protagonist (Keisuke) twice, was likely going to try and kill his love interest since she would have been a witness, does not care about the fact that tons of people lost their lives on the ship and at the harbor, is willing to endanger countless lives just to get himself a diamond, and, in the process of stealing the diamond, threatens to shoot anyone who tries to stop him. Is that enough?

edited 27th Mar '15 2:54:10 PM by bobg

jjj

I suppose the only problem with 616 Punisher is when he guest stars in other titles, he is sometimes written as a immoral fool like this example:

http://scans-daily.dreamwidth.org/2030841.html

I think stuff like that is out of character for him, he is usually written as a very flawed person who never the less goes out of his way to only punish criminals guilty of very serious crimes, when he appears in other titles, he can be reduced to a straw man caricture that just makes the hero of the title look better. That story was written way after the stories with Samuel Smith.

I think that is the problem with comic books in general, the are characters are Depending on the Writer, so sometimes they are written in ways that present them that make them look bad, like the time Spidey punched his pregnant wife or half of the stuff Tony Stark did during and after Civil War. I mean with comic book monsters we usually ignore random Pet the Dog moments that disappear right away and contradict the character, so I'm not sure what we do with heroes, these moments that make them look bad and the heinous standard.

@nrjxll, if you played the game, why don't you make an effort post on Gaul?

edited 27th Mar '15 3:14:33 PM by Overlord

The best we can usually do is to make sure we don't vote up any qualifiers from a story where the hero is that out of character. If a writer decides to write The Punisher as Light Yagami with a gun, or turn Iron Man into a fascist, that's really all we can do.

3 definite murders, one attempted, one implied, other possible? I'll give a

edited 27th Mar '15 3:33:52 PM by ACW

CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts

By the way, weren't you going to work on Rea and the Linkz example this weekend? Not that I'm meaning to put pressure on you.

jjj

No problem. You mean Rhea and Lincz? Yeah, I got those and a few others to tweak tomorrow.

CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts

RE the Punisher, that strip is from Runaways which had a tendency to write adult heroes as somewhat out-of-character/ridiculous.

And Andross

Welcome to the world of greatest media!

Anyone got a bit of a compilation of our recent discussions here? And how about Gieger, any thoughts on him?

About Spade...I can see it if it gives him the bodycount a war implies. Smith is an easy yea. think I'll give Onodera a yes as he continues the proud Kaiju tradition of being a prick who brings Kaiju wrath on others.

I think you covered it. Smith (and Dane) need writeups, Spade I'll take care of, Onodera needs a better writeup, I've got my tweaks, and then we've got the Onimusha baddies. Oh yeah, what to do about Iris?

Speaking of Smith, since his inclusion would give Punisher 7 entries (Smith, plus 6 from MAX), should we give him his own page?

edited 28th Mar '15 2:03:12 AM by ACW

CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts

And then there's my fourth proposal of Mother Gothel from Rapunzel's Revenge, but I'm used to people overlooking it. There's a reason I stopped asking.

If everyone were normal, the world would be a dull place. Like reality television.

Oh yeah. I'm not sure about her.

---

And actually, after doing some research, I'm not sure Daemon Spade counts. There's his Freudian excuse, and right before dying, there's this. I'd say that might be enough to disqualify him. Byakuran can still stay (at least Future!Byakuran anyway; don't know if we need to explain that in his writeup).

edited 28th Mar '15 4:35:58 AM by ACW

CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts

Re: Onodera: With that information I could see keeping him, contingent on two things: First, Kaiju monsters have themselves actually been qualified before as CMs, so they can contribute to the heinous standard. How is that dealt with in the Gamera franchise? Second, I think he does enough on his own accord, but I'm not too sure about attributing Barugon's rampage to Onedera's actions. It sounds oddly similar to Burke's actions with the colonists on LV-426, which we deemed couldn't really count. I think we also need to know what continuities there are in Gamera, as it could affect the heinous standard/create more candidates.

@ ACW: There's a write-up for Travis Dane on the YMMV page; Tyk said he'd add it there. Also, did you ask the person who initially added Geiger to nominate them here?

@ ST89 & Tyk5919: Re: Kiss of the Dragon: I'll need a lot more context for the scene with Richard where he appears to cry over the dead pimp. What, if anything, was the relationship between these two men? It may or not be a minor redeeming trait, but we can't assume ulterior motive without a believable reason behind it. How could he hope to gain the trust of a bunch of other (non-corrupt?) cops by affecting sadness over the death of an abusive pimp?

edited 28th Mar '15 4:56:05 AM by Morgenthaler

You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"

@ACW: Oh yeah. Sorry, forgot to tell you about that. >__< I finished the write-up for Dane a couple days ago.

@Morgenthaler: And therein lies the problem: the relationship between the two men was relatively minor; the Mook in question was The Dragon. I don't recall either of them interacting very much in the movie, except for the scene where both of them tie Jessica down and inject her with heroin. Other than that, he treats him the same way he treats most of his other mooks. Then again, this is another one of those cases where I haven't seen the movie in a while. Maybe ST89 knows a little bit more?

Or maybe this is a perfect excuse to rewatch that movie.

I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.

Has Spade's death occurred in the anime yet, or at all? His death in the manga definitely disqualifies him, even though it's the typical Monster Sob Story at the last possible moment, but I'd assumed the entry was about the character in the anime.

Oh, right. Now I remember why I never proposed Daemon Speade. The anime never gets past the Future arc.

Alright, here we go. To be submitted Monday morning:

• Apollo Justice Ace Attorney Case 5 Turnabout Substitution: Rhea Wits, the Mysterious Bust Killer (and Apollo's partner), murdered a dozen people including her brother. The killer tricked the innocent Robert Erlenmeyer into believing he was responsible for the murders, and made him confess. After Erlenmeyer's escape, the killer planned to kill him and hide his body so the police would be left searching for a dead man, leaving the killer free to kill again. After the judge witnessed the killer trying to bury Erlenmeyer alive in a cemetery, the killer decided to just kill the judge and frame Erlenmeyer for his murder as well. After being accused by Apollo of being the true killer, the killer taunted him and implied that Apollo would be the next target. The actual Mysterious Bust Killer, when finally revealed, said that at least they made better use of their life than the victims did of theirs.
• Lincz ("Lynch"): Jarosław Zaranek, a sick and twisted old man, terrorizes a small Polish village in which he lives, and in every scene in which he appears he carries either a machete or an axe. In his first appearance, we see him going into a grocery store and talking to a clerk. After he leaves, someone else enters the store to find the clerk savagely beaten. In his next appearance, Zaranek walks into an old lady's house and tries to extort money from her, beating her nearly to death when she refuses. The lady's daughter, who witnessed the whole incident from her window, attempts to call the police but Zaranek enters her house, takes out the machete, and threatens her, making her call the police off. In another scene, we see him molesting his own granddaughter and breaking glass into her face when she tries to fight back. Later, he walks into another woman's private property with an axe, and when she tells him to go away, he attempts to kill her seven-year old son with an axe. The father comes to help and Zaranek nearly cuts off his arm, before killing the family's dog by decapitating him and throwing his head in the middle of the street.
• The Missing: The evil Native American "witch" Pesh-Chidin, aka El Brujo ("The Sorcerer"), is a sadistic murderer who leads a group of killers through the territories where he ritualistically murders those he encounters and kidnaps attractive young ladies to sell into sex slavery in Mexico. Chidin has the women mistreated, his only concern being he fears seven is an "unlucky number, " making him opt to capture an eighth girl before they go to Mexico. When he learns a girl has killed herself thanks to the aid of another, Chidin restrains himself from beating the girl only because he won't gain money for a swollen face, but forces sand into her mouth while snarling "this is what the rest of your life will taste like." Chidin murders a photographer via a powder that makes him bleed out through his ears, eyes, nose and mouse, slaughters his Mexican partners when they anger him and finally simply attempts to murder the heroes. A vicious, brutal monster feared even by other Native tribes, Chidin is a loathed figure to all who know him.
• Sahara: In this film based on the novel by Clive Cussler, Brigadier General Zateb Kazim is a warlord who rules half of Mali, maintaining an iron grip on his territory at the expense of his people. When his lands experience a plague, Kazim tries to block UN humanitarian aid to his territory so they do not discover the source of the plague is Kazim himself, who is allowing the water to be contaminated with toxins for the profits he gains from the corporation dumping the toxins. Kazim uses slave labor in the plant and has no issue if the plant is destroyed with the workers in it to cover up his crimes. Ruthless and greedy, Kazim will stop at nothing to take control of Mali, even if he allows thousands of civilians to die so he can grow wealthier.
• Under Siege 2: Dark Territory: Travis Dane, a former government scientist, is the Evil Genius responsible for creating Grazer One. He hires Mr. Penn and several mercenaries to hijack the Grand Continental train, resulting in several deaths. Once they take command, he finds two of his colleagues and forces them to give up the codes for Grazer One by threatening to insert a hot needle into their eyeballs. After he receives the codes, he has both colleagues killed, reactivates the satellite, and proceeds to demonstrate the power of Grazer One by destroying a chemical plant in China. Several terrorists offer Dane one billion dollars to destroy Washington D.C. with the satellite; an offer he happily accepts. He then goes on to destroy a civilian aircraft for another hundred million dollars. Later on, he switches the train tracks so that the Grand Continental is on a collision course for another train carrying gallons of gasoline. Near the end, shortly after Penn and all of his men are killed, he tries to flee the Grand Continental, fully prepared to let all of the hostages on the train and millions of people in Washington die.
• Timecop: In this series spun off from the film, Ian Pascoe is a time traveller from the near future who, after killing both his parents in 2007, has traversed time and space to Make Wrong What Once Went Right throughout history, funding mob bosses, causing disasters and personally murdering countless people. In his first episode he kills the original Jack the Ripper to take his place, and proceeds to work on achieving Jack's bodycount five times over. When the protagonist tries to stop him, Pascoe ties a time-detonated bomb to a prostitute's neck before escaping. He reappears in 1950s Useful Notes/Hollywood, where he electrocutes a famed actress's boyfriend before trying to crush her by tying her up and dropping a safe on her head. When the timecops arrest him, he stages a prison breakout, killing a psychologist and kidnapping the protagonist's colleague on his way out. He meets up with Al Capone in 1928 after previously having made him boss, and forces Capone back into his service. When Capone orders one of his goons to keep tabs on Pascoe, the latter murders the minion and gives Capone the man's bodyparts stuffed into a briefcase. Living solely for the thrill of murder, Pascoe's only goal was to become and remain "the greatest killer in history."
• Star Fox: Emperor Andross, the Big Bad of the first four games (with a posthumous impact in Star Fox Command), is a primate scientist whose experiments destroyed a good chunk of the Cornerian capital city and rendered multiple worlds in the Lylat system uninhabitable. Banished to the planet Venom, Andross took it over while building his own army. When the time was right, Andross launched a vicious campaign on Lylat, having his forces attack civilian populations and aiming to exterminate life on entire worlds. When he faced Fox McCloud, whose father Andross had killed years ago, Andross was apparently destroyed, only to survive in the form of a spirit who fled to Dinosaur Planet (later named Sauria). Manipulating events there, Andross engineered his own resurrection and transformation into a near deity. At the climax of Star Fox Adventures, Andross, who has been manipulating General Scales, opts to destroy the entire Lylat system.

edited 30th Mar '15 6:12:50 AM by ACW

CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts

Why don't we just link to Apollo Justice Ace Attorney instead of creating a redlink for one case?

Re Onodera: The reason I brought up all of Barugon's actions was because, while I knew we could not hold any of that itself against Onodera (he's an Unwitting Instigator of Doom in that regard), we COULD hold his attitude toward all of Barugon's actions against him. When Barugon grows to adult size inside the ship and it sinks, killing everyone on board in the process, what is his one concern? How is he gonna get the opal back? He does not care about the destruction Barugon causes. He's willing to steal the diamond needed to stop her just so he can get rich. He does not care that without the diamond, Barugon will continue to rampage. I do not know how the Gamera series deals with moral agency regarding the monsters. In any case, Barugon sinking the ship was an accident on her part since she grew to adult size inside of it.

It's a fan game.

edited 28th Mar '15 12:27:52 PM by bobg

jjj

@Verymelon: Then I take it Spade doesn't do too much in his anime appearances to warrant an inclusion?

What bobg said. And the link works fine on the wiki itself. See UnwinnableByMistake.Other Video Games.

About Rhea's entry: "Apollo's", not "Apollos's". Also, the Big Bad Friend pothole should be removed. It's a Square Peg Round Trope, Big Bad Friend is a genuine friend, not a False Friend. It's bad form to have potholes under spoiler tags anyway.

EDIT: Also: "When finally proved to be the true killer, the killer just said that at least the killer made better use of the killer’s life than the victims did of theirs." How many times can you say "the killer" in a single sentence? Just use "they" or "their;" the Gender Neutral Writing is pretty obvious anyway.

edited 28th Mar '15 12:42:06 PM by MyTimingIsOff