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Macron's notes
I agree with restricting the definition and sending it through the TLP. Given that 20 of the examples are chairs/ZCE, then that's almost 40% misuse and leaves only 40 wicks. Not all of those wicks are going to be examples either.
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Edit: Neglected to mention that I don't have a problem with doing an example drive.
Edit: I changed my vote to merging with Meaningful Name.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Jun 23rd 2023 at 10:47:31 AM
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This might be the lumper in me, but does this need to be broken out from Holiday Motif if the main meaning is "character with Valentine in the name is love/lust themed in reference to the holiday"? The best analog I can see is to tropes like Color Motif and Colorful Theme Naming; we don't have separate "X Color Name" pages. Given the few examples, could we not merge it back up?
ETA: Or if it does go to the TLP, could we broaden the scope to any holiday connected Meaningful Name, if that's not covered by Holiday Motif (I think it might be, but I'm actually not 100% sure)?
Edited by amathieu13 on Jun 23rd 2023 at 8:39:56 AM
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
Maybe we could merge Be My Valentine with Holiday Motif and Yard or TLP a trope about holiday-based Meaningful Names in general, since we'd need to use TLP anyway to gather non-Valentine's Day-related examples
To be honest, I think I'm now in favor of merging with Holiday Motif, not for the sake of lumping, but because cutting examples that don't fit the proposed revision would leave the trope wick-starved. Doing that and sending the trope for holiday-based Meaningful Names in general to TLP would probably be better if TLP would be involved regardless of what happens.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Jun 23rd 2023 at 8:25:32 AM
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Hmm, I'm not sure about the Holiday Motif merge since the examples sound like they're just going for "character has an association with romance" rather than being connected to the holiday. I feel a proper Holiday Motif should have a stronger connection to Valentine's Day traditions.
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In that case, merge with Meaningful Name instead of Holiday Motif.
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the Retromancer
Since Valentine's Day is about romance, not sure which Valentine characters would have a Meaningful Name without Holiday Motif.
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to redefining.
How sweet it is
Merge with Meaningful Name.
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Logic Girl
I'm voting for redefine. Partly because I'm a splitter, but also because there seem to be two "merge" options, and I'm not sure which one would be better.
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Sounds good on paper (he/him)
I hooked a crowner for whether to redefine or cut. In the case of the latter, we'd be sorting good examples between Meaningful Name, Holiday Motifs, or both.
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The crowner description says "merging with Meaningful Name due to redundancy concerns was also suggested", but my impression is that it was a lack of examples (23 romance-related ones on the wick check, which leaves it right on the edge of starving if you don't count indexes or links in trope descriptions) that was the concern, not redundancy. (Subtropes aren't usually thought of as redundant.)
Anyway, if lack of examples is the main concern, I'd rather both redefine and send it back to TLP.
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
Changed the crowner to account for the lack of examples being the main concern. (I had a brain fart on that part and listed the wrong reason because I wasn't completely awake when I made the crowner. I've had caffeine since then.) Either way, if this is cut, giving it another chance in TLP (preferably with the definition expanded to cover other holidays) is a free action.
Edit: Added a bullet point addressing making a draft with a potentially expanded definition if this is cut.
Edit: Added a new sentence to the cut option on the crowner to account for the fact that it doesn't preclude giving the concept another try in TLP. (Since this is just clarifying what's already there instead of changing the meaning of the option, I figured it wouldn't hurt since it isn't retroactively changing what people voted for.)
Edited by GastonRabbit on Jun 25th 2023 at 9:48:45 AM
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Professional Wick Checker
Changed my vote to cut and move, etc.
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Maybe make a draft like Holiday Themed Name?
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Sounds good on paper (he/him)
Calling in favor of cutting and moving examples to Meaningful Name and/or Holiday Motif if they fit.
As mentioned in the crowner, this does not preclude sending the trope back to TLP or the Trope Idea Salvage Yard after this thread closes to gather more examples, possibly with the definition expanded to cover holidays other than Valentine's Day. (Relevant to the post above this one.) Feel free to grab examples from the wick check (which will be archived in the opening post).
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Sounds good on paper (he/him)
Trope is dewicked and cut, so locking up.
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
Crown Description:
- Be My Valentine's first line agrees the name 'Valentine' is romantic, but then proceeds to talk about any positive association the name has, and inconclusively segues into villainy and variants of the name.
- Most of the usage (23/51) agrees with the laconic, though 'romantic' is admittedly broad: either they're promiscuous/a ladykiller, a love interest, Thinks Like A Romance Novel, making these Meaningful Names. Only 6 wicks agree with the "nice, heroic description". 10/51 are just characters named Valentine, and another 10 are just ZCE (presumably also characters named Valentine).
- In short, the description is not too clear and the usage doesn't exactly align with it. It was suggested to redefine the trope to refer to characters who are sensual, a love interest, or a casanova, as long as they have a strong association with love and sex, though merging with Meaningful Name due to a lack of examples was also suggested.
- If this is cut, it can be sent back to TLP or the Trope Idea Salvage Yard after this thread closes, possibly with the definition expanded to cover holidays other than Valentine's Day.
- What should be done with Be My Valentine?
To-do list:
OP credits goes to Synchronicity
Main.Be My Valentine's first line agrees the name 'Valentine' is romantic, but then proceeds to talk about any positive association the name has, and inconclusively segues into villainy and variants of the name.
Since a lot of on-page examples were just characters named Valentine, I decided to do a wick check to see how it was being used: Sandbox.Be My Valentine WC. I checked every wick that wasn't in Main/, Sandbox/ or Pantheon/, ending with a neat 51.
Most of the usage (23/51) agrees with the laconic, though 'romantic' is admittedly broad: either they're promiscuous/a ladykiller, a love interest, Thinks Like a Romance Novel. But I think these are acceptable uses of Meaningful Name. Only 6 wicks agree with the "nice, heroic description". 10/51 are just characters named Valentine, and another 10 are just ZCE (presumably also characters named Valentine).
In short, the description is not too clear and the usage doesn't exactly align with it. If we decide that this trope is worth having I think it is best redefined with the Meaningful Name romanticism in mind: a character can be sensual, a love interest, a casanova, as long as they have a strong association with love and sex. Wick cleanup shouldn't take too long since it only has ~60 wicks as of writing, though if we keep it it may require a dip through TLP to gather examples, or at least research the on-page examples to see if they count.
Wick check:
Results:
Edited by GastonRabbit on Jun 28th 2023 at 5:00:03 AM
Macron's notes