Character pronoun and identity discussion

They/them might also work due to Envy being a case of I Am Legion.

referring to yourself in first person as "this (name)" is very uncommon but not unheard of, and it's mostly seen in fictional media used by haughty and androgynous characters — off the top of my head, taranza from Kirby: Triple Deluxe (このタランザ) and sesshomaru from Inuyasha (この殺生丸) do so as well. i think envy's case is unique because it's the only pronoun they use, as the others i mentioned otherwise use the standard watashi, meaning envy avoids using a pronoun that could potentially gender them at all

Edited by NoUsername on May 22nd 2023 at 1:11:39 AM

I think Dio Brando also uses "kono Dio."

I do think that with Envy, using "they/them" might be for the best.

I'd like to bring up another Genshin Impact character- Apep, a dragon who is one of the weekly bosses, is currently being referred to on the character page by a mix of she/her and it/its pronouns. In-game, Apep has a female voice actor but is referred to solely as 'it'.

While Apep does have an Ambiguous Gender entry, I think that's misuse- Apep is referred to as 'it' by not only strangers, but Nahida, someone who has great respect for Apep is and is actively trying to get Apep to work with her to save the world. So I don't that being called 'it' is meant as a "It" Is Dehumanizing thing; apart from the voice, there's nothing to indicate Apep is female.

Yeah, seems pretty clear-cut to me that we should use it pronouns.

Trans rights are human rights.

I have an entry I want to bring up.

This example...

• Marika from Bokura no Hentai averts this. She spends a while dressing up in private but eventually comes out to her mom after some friends tell her she should see a doctor. She spends a few weeks out of school, going to therapy and such, but ends up going to school as a girl. Even after that she suffers from some Pass Fail moments and is shown to be insecure in femininity.

Confused me at first. The consistent use of female pronouns confused me as to what the twist was but these kind tropers have also commented and corrected me.

Bowserbros

• I haven't read Bokura no Hentai, but from the work page's description, I think the reason why that part is spoilered isn't because her being trans is a twist. If it was, it probably wouldn't be described, unspoilered, in the page's description. The spoiler comes from the fact that she's attempting to go public about her gender identity instead of only disclosing it to her circle of friends. I could be wrong though; might be best to hear from someone who read the manga.

And No Username

• also not someone who's read the manga but since marika being trans is in the work's description and unspoiled throughout that page i have to concur with bowserbros that it's likely her being AMAB is not a spoiler, but going public with her identity is. I think we could just rewrite it to establish that context. though, i also don't think it's worth noting a trans character having a realistic arc as an aversion of Easy Sex Change; Trans Tribulations would be a better fit here

I want to know the best course of action to be respectful, accurate and make things clearer.

EDIT: Whoops this is from Easy Sex Change.

Edited by AegisP on May 29th 2023 at 6:01:15 AM

Discord: Waido X 255#1372 If you cant contact me on TV Tropes do it here.

if we're keeping it on that page, my thought would be something like this (adding extra context from the corresponding Trans Tribulations entry):

• Averted in Bokura no Hentai. Marika, a trans girl, suffers from intense gender dysphoria and remains closeted to everyone but a small group of friends at the beginning of the story. She spends a while dressing up in private, but eventually comes out to her mom after her friends tell her she should see a doctor. She spends a few weeks out of school as she undergoes therapy, but when she returns, she finally comes out publicly and begins fully living as a girl. Even after that, she is still insecure and occasionally suffers from Pass Fails.

Easy Sex Change is not omnipresent, so aversions can't be added there.

Fixed.

Edited by badtothebaritone on May 29th 2023 at 9:11:45 AM

this entry is on Easy Sex Change, which i admittedly don't think is omnipresent either

(x6) I feel we should use "it" for the reasons you stated.

Is it possible to get an update to the Resolved Characters folder at some point?

The Revolution Will Not Be Tropeable

Always, but you'd have to write out the update and holler the post.

Settled cases:

• Apep from Genshin Impact: It/its. Discussion begins here.
• Bedman? from Guilty Gear: It/its. Discussion begins here.
• Candy Caramella from Space Goofs: He/him in the original cartoon, she/her when referring to the version of Candy in the spin-off game Stupid Invaders. Discussion begins here.
• Cheese from Sonic the Hedgehog: He/him when referring to the version in the video games, they/them for the version in the IDW comics. Discussion begins here.
• Cho'gath from League of Legends: Both he/him and it/its are fine, as long as the pronoun used is consistent within a given example. Discussion begins here.
• Claude from Claudine: He/him. Discussion begins here.
• Daphne from Some Like It Hot: They/them, explain that the character uses both Jerry and Daphne as names at different times. Discussion starts here.
• Dragona from JoJo's Bizarre Adventure: He/him until more information is given. Discussion begins here.
• Gabriela from Como dice el dicho: She/her, use the name Gabriela. Discussion begins here.
• Gala Laxi from Dragalia Lost: They/them when referring to the combined entity of Laxi and Mascula. She/her when referring to just Laxi, he/him when referring to just Mascula. Discussion begins here.
• Hassan of Intoxicating Smoke from Fate/Grand Order: He/him. Discussion begins here, is continued here.
• Lor from Borderlands: He/him, use the name Lor. Discussion begins here.
• Mordred from Fate Series: She/her, with an Ambiguous Gender Identity entry. Discussion starts here.
• Omochao from Sonic the Hedgehog: They/them. Discussion begins here.
• Pokemon in general from Pokémon: Gendered pronouns when discussing a specific individual pokemon, it/its when discussing a pokemon species in general. Discussion begins here, is continued here.
• La Pucelle from Magical Girl Raising Project: He/him in civilian form, she/her when transformed into a magical girl. Discussion begins here.
• Stella Lulu from Magical Girl Raising Project: He/him in civilian form, she/her when transformed into a magical girl. Discussion begins here.
• Sui from Campfire Cooking in Another World with My Absurd Skill: It/its. Discussion begins here.
• Vennia from Cafe Enchante: Both he/him and they/them are fine, as long as the pronoun used is consistent within a given example. Discussion begins here.
• The vessels (the Knight, the Hollow Knight, the Broken Vessel, and the other void siblings) from Hollow Knight: It/its. Discussion begins here, is continued here.

• General policy on characters who reincarnate/gain new bodies, and have their gender change when they do so (in specific, Eternals (2021), Doctor Who): When discussing a particular incarnation/body, use the pronouns the work and its characters used for the character in that form. When a character has used different pronouns at different times (e.g. for different incarnations), default to they/them pronouns if discussing the character overall. Discussion begins here.

No consensus reached:

• Envy from Fullmetal Alchemist: Discussion begins here. The current votes are:
  • he/him: Epic Bleye, bwburke94, me (hope that its allowed that I weigh in here)
  • they/them: Synchronicity, Noaqiyeum, Alley Oop, dragonfire5000
• Ranboo from Origins SMP: Discussion begins here.
  • she/her: Chloe Jessica, Crossover-Enthusiast
  • he/him: bwburke94, Tremmor 19
• Yena from Seton Academy: Join the Pack!. Discussion begins here.
  • he/him: sgamer82, Libraryseraph
  • she/her: Watchtower

I vote they/them for Envy as well

Character Specific Page cleanup

Ditto they/them for Envy.

Trans rights are human rights.

Added the big list of resolved characters to the pinned post. Not sure if the unresolved list is supposed to go up to or not.

---

I am good with they/them for Envy.

Macron's notes

Just wanted to bring the unresolved ones up again to get more eyes on them, didn't mean for them to be added to the list. Looks like there's now consensus for they/them Envy!

Thank you Orbiting!

It sounds like Yena should be he/him to me. I don't think I'll vote on Ranboo right now, but I will note that at least by the summary it sounds similar to the situation with John/June Egbert (creator approved someone's headcanon on a whim after finishing the story and no canonical materials refer to it), who I don't think has been brought up on this thread because the page already has a consensus of "he/him causes the smallest headache".

I'm not sure if this counts as resolved or not: Hibari of Stop Hibari Kun was brought up quite some time ago and the only consensus was "leave the page as it is"; I'm mostly mentioning it because it's relevant to the discussion of when it might be appropriate to use pronouns the work itself doesn't.

The Revolution Will Not Be Tropeable

for the record

• the Some Like It Hot example did not settle on They/Them at all. in fact, my post here is the last discussion on the matter voting for She/Her in the tropes and avoiding gendering at all during the introduction. that being said, the discussion was specifically about the play version, which i don't believe has a trope page at this point.
• as for envy, i just meant to bring up tvtropes rules for the sake of reference, i'm not voting he/him and i dont really know the correct answer in this case
• for Seton Academy: Join the Pack i think he/him is the correct answer. we've been following the rule of self-prescribed pronouns for a while now. "gimmick" or no, if Yena uses he/him pronouns, the wiki should too.
• for Stop!! HibariKun, i thought my post here seem to be conclusive, as nobody argued with me by that point. i will remain adamant that Hibari should be referred to by she/her, especially since she was contrasted in the final chapter by somebody who was explicitly a trans man.

Edited by EpicBleye on May 31st 2023 at 11:50:08 AM

"There's not a girl alive who wouldn't be happy being called cute." ~Tamamo-no-Mae

I was more neutral to she/her Ranboo than outright agreeing with the pronoun change tbh.

Jawbreakers on sale for 99¢

He/Him for Yena. Jin Mazama is an asshole anyway.

They/Them for Envy.

As I've said before, Hibari is a work primarily known here for its pronoun debate, with gratuitously cherry-picked "evidence" on both sides. That's why I'm iffy on making any kind of ruling there.

I had a dog-themed avatar before it was cool.

okay but as a site we need to make a ruling for the tropes page, and as of my post, most people agreed with she/her

not to mention the fact that what i pointed out was not cherrypicked evidence, it's literally a main plot point of Hibari trying to be stealth and seen as a woman in public spaces

if you disagree with she/her you're allowed to, but the majority of people thus far have agreed that she/her are the most proper pronouns

Edited by EpicBleye on Jun 1st 2023 at 2:56:22 PM

"There's not a girl alive who wouldn't be happy being called cute." ~Tamamo-no-Mae

~MacronNotes I think you forgot to add the Bedman? entry

I thought it did but it's there now.

Edited by MacronNotes on Jun 1st 2023 at 5:18:03 AM

Macron's notes