Character pronoun and identity discussion

wasn't this matter decided already? Yamato describes himself as a man, was in the men's bath, and should only be referred to as a man.

if at some point in the future he says he changed his mind, it can be discussed then how to refer to him, but that has not happened.

edit: yeah, he's in the crowner. there's absolutely no reason to bring him up again.

Edited by EpicBleye on Apr 16th 2023 at 2:22:27 PM

"There's not a girl alive who wouldn't be happy being called cute." ~Tamamo-no-Mae

The thread was even just locked specifically because this got brought up all over again after it had been decided. Also one bit of art does not negate what's actually in the story, and that's the Source of Truth for these things.

Edited by sgamer82 on Apr 16th 2023 at 11:30:40 AM

And that's why I argued against using evidence such as clothing — because all that matters is how the character identifies, presentation is something else. I don't see the wiggle room in that.

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

Yamato may be revisited at some point in the future, but it's a huge can of worms.

I had a dog-themed avatar before it was cool.

And that’s also interesting considering how it was also pointed out to me, respectfully and shouldn’t necessarily be so quick to push aside, that Yamato uses terms like “boku”, had Sanji nosebleed over him at the bath like how he had with women in the past, and doesn’t seem to argue/take issue against Sanji referring to himself with “Chan”, something Oda had only really distinguished when Sanji addressed Robin and older women being treated as younger.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not trying to argue against addressing Yamato as “he”, and I respect the site’s decision in how the resolution was voiced. I just felt it was still worth bringing up if only for more insightful discussion over such a topic that can get pretty complex, because it makes sense to look at the evidence with as much of a full-view as possible, as opposed to looking at things in only one way, no?

Edited by electricmastro on Apr 16th 2023 at 3:52:45 PM

None of those things in any way precludes or contradicts him being a man.

Trans rights are human rights.

He could also refer to himself with male pronouns without identifying as a man outright. Nonbinary people do it all the time, as do cases on the very extreme end of of "ore-onna or Bokukko", and some butch lesbians in real life. I feel like it shouldn't matter what Yamato does or presents as, he could even explicitly declare himself to be a cis woman and the "he/him" pronouns still should stay IMO until he starts using a different set like "watashi" or the like.

Edited by AlleyOop on Apr 16th 2023 at 1:00:07 AM

If these aren't meant to be arguments against Yamato's gender then it's actually not worth bringing up, as the discussion has settled long time ago. Arguments are used when something needs to be changed.

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup

Continue the bloodline, Fujimaru!

I think we should follow this post.

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup

This is something I want to check for later editing:

In Characters.Fate Grand Order Avengers, Oda Nobunaga (Avenger) folder discusses three characters; Oda Nobunaga herself, Oda Kippoushi, and Demon King Nobunaga. The character sheet goes with the assumption that Nobunaga and Demon King Nobbu are both female, while Kippoushi has Ambiguous Gender, albeit more masculine leaning compared to the other two. Note how few of Kippoushi's likes has characters like Chacha and Nobukatsu being confused about Kippoushi's gender. This is seen in gameplay as the single Servant container containing all three has the "Gender: Unknown" trait. This was mostly all written when Demon King Nobunaga was first released in JP version.

When the Servant was released in NA version, however, it tells a different story. While Nobunaga is still a woman, Kippoushi is referred with male pronouns in the trio's profile, making it seem like Kippoushi is a younger version of Nobunaga from a timeline when they were born a male. Meanwhile, the trio's profile refers to Demon King Nobunaga with they/them pronouns as they represent the fusion of all of Nobunagas from past, present, and future, from the female Archer Nobunaga and Kaiser Nobunaga, to the male Kippoushi and Real-Deal Nobunaga. However, I think the profile is the only place which uses they/them pronouns for Demon King Nobunaga, and everyone in the story goes with she/her. I need to reread the past events to make sure.

So to summarize, base Nobbu should stay she/her, Kippoushi should be changed to he/him due to his gender being made more clear, and Demon King Nobunaga is either they/them or she/her.

Continue the bloodline, Fujimaru!

And speaking of Fate/Grand Order pronoun localization shenanigans, I came across a screenshot of Mordred from Fate Series that makes me wonder if... err... they... have been discussed yet? I think they might have, but I cannot recall exactly when or what the verdict was so I may as well raise the question now:

The image in question — the official English localization of Mordred's Fate/Grand Order profile — uses male pronouns to refer to Mordred, who — as a clone of Altria/Artoria Pendragon — is biologically female (although for that matter I think one of Altria/Artoria's profiles uses male pronouns too). Like Astolfo (who in recent years has gotten a degree of gender ambiguity as well), Mordred has been the subject of Trans Audience Interpretation for years — being treated as a woman being one of Mordred's Berserk Buttons (although so is being treated too much like a man) going all the way back to Fate/Apocrypha — but Kinoko Nasu's Word of God statement on the matter is that Mordred — as a clone of Altria/Artoria — is obviously a woman and "she" dresses in female-coded clothing both under the armor and in civilian form. (Though many critics have argued that Nasu is wrongly conflating gender identity and biological sex, and that what clothes Mordred choses to wear don't necessarily reflect either; while others have accused FGO of pushing a Translation with an Agenda and/or "Blind Idiot" Translation.)

So... should Mordred be referred to with male pronouns, female pronouns, both?

---

For Nobu... I'd use she/her, for base, he/him for Kippoushi, and they/them for Demon King. The characters in the story may just be going off Demon King's appearance, and IIRC they're biologically female? [shrug]

Edited by Arawn999 on Apr 17th 2023 at 6:04:47 AM

Mordred is... okay, let me first go over Mordred's lore in Fate:

Mordred is a homunculus created from the DNA of Morgan le Fae (mother) and King Arthur (father). King Arthur, or rather Artoria Pendragon, in Fate is a woman who was pretending to be a man so that people will actually listen to her rule. Morgan created Mordred for the purpose of infiltrating Artoria's court and ruining Camelot from the inside out. So Mordred joined the Knights of the Round Table as a mysterious helmeted knight, never telling anyone who they were or showing what was beneath the helmet (in fact, Mordred's title among the KOTR is "Mordred the Silent"). The first time Mordred broke character was when Mordred finally revealed to Artoria who the mysterious knight she had known for several years was.

To put it simply, Mordred has had zero role models for her entire life. Morgan showed Mordred zero affection, and her "father" Artoria was already in a weird gender position, being a woman who disguised herself as a man. The way it is presented, Mordred shows having gender dysphoria due to her own wishes to become a king like Artoria did. Her character arc in Apocrypha is coming to realize why she wants to be a king in the first place.

But as for how Mordred is referred to as in the story, while Mordred's profile in FGO either uses he/him pronouns or no pronouns at all, Mordred's Rider version which was released later uses she/her pronouns. Everyone else in the game itself refers to Mordred with she/her pronouns, so it seems like Mordred has grown more accepting to being called a woman, even if she radiates major tomboy aura.

Fun fact; Mordred didn't originally have gender pre-Apocrypha, and she was meant to stay male, but everyone thought that having two feminine-looking males appear together (the other being Astolfo) would be too much.

Continue the bloodline, Fujimaru!

Rider Mordred is the summer beach fanservice variant, and looks like the change in profile pronouns is explained as

"Prefers to be called a man except when surfing at the beach" is certainly a unique situation to find here.

I checked, and that part of Rider Mordred's profile is correct. Though on a different note, Saber Mordred's profile in NA was updated at some point so the final section of her profile now reads:

Now the only time Mordred's profile refers to her with he/him pronoun is right at the beginning of it. But it also uses he/him pronouns to refer to King Arthur, so it seems like this is just to cover Mordred's identity.

In the case of Arawn saying that "FGO is pushing Translation with an Agenda and/or "Blind Idiot" Translation": It is true that the NA translation of FGO is not the greatest, with occasional typos and the like. However, FGO also has several non-binary characters in it, such as Chevalier d'Eon (genderfluid who is referred to with they/them pronouns), Leonardo da Vinci (generally accepted to be a transwoman), Qin Shi Huang (transcended beyond the need to reproduce, referred by they/them pronouns with Qin themselves using Royal "We"), and Caenis (who is, well, Caenis). We even have cases like Saber Astolfo, where the profile starts by referring to Astolfo with he/him pronouns, before shifting to they/them per Astolfo's request. So it feels weird to call out how the translation handles Mordred like that when there is a way the game handles certain characters. FGO's translation is probably the closest to Nasu's vision compared to some other game's translations, even if it's to a fault (such as calling Artoria "Altria", with a chance that the Faerie Knights will be called "Tam Lin").

I should probably check Apocrypha anime's dub or sub to make sure on this. I remember that the quote about Mordred is something Mordred says to Sisigou when first summoned, but this is the only case where Mordred goes on a rant.

Continue the bloodline, Fujimaru!

Hmm, this is certainly tricky. I would say to refer to Mordred as They/Them like Caenis, but I'm not entirely sure on that. Would like to hear more opinions before being sure on something.

Also, when did you hear that d'Eon's genderfluid in FGO? IK the NA localization used They/Them pronouns for them but I don't recall hearing about them being genderfluid. You can DM me the answer if you think it's off-topic and/or might derail the thread a bit.

Edited by Cutegirl920fire on Apr 18th 2023 at 9:40:11 AM

Victor of HGS S320 | "There's rosemary, that's for remembrance. Pray you, love, remember."

Hmm, looks like Saber King Arthur's profile uses she/her (as Saber has always been fine with being considered a woman), so I assume the "his" for Arthur on Mordred's profile is meant to be from the perspective of Mordred, who does not(?) know King Arthur's secret.