I've decided to start a cleanup thread for Narm, since it seems to attract a lot of misuse and complaining. Like I said in my ATT post
, "some misuse is easy to catch (e.g. saying a joke is Narm when Narm by definition can't be a joke), a lot of examples fall into grey areas that seem like misuse but it's hard to tell. Like nitpicks that at first glance seem to be valid examples, but feel like stretches the more you think about them."
I think one of the main reasons for misuse is that most people aren't clear on what Narm actually is. To my understanding, it's when a scene is intended to be dramatic, but comes off as cheesy/funny unintentionally. But going by the page description, it's kind of vague what actually qualifies something as Narm. At the top, it says "Narm is a moment that is supposed to be serious, but due to either over-sappiness, poor execution, excessive Melodrama, or the sheer absurdity of the situation, the drama is lost to the point of surpassing "cheesy" and becoming unintentionally funny." But then later on in the same page, it gives a much more vague definition:
Most often, Narm is misused to mean "anything I personally don't think worked," whether or not it was intended as dramatic or comes off as funny. And when a work is high-profile enough, hoo boy, pretty much every scene is Narm to somebody. You can look at the Narm subpages for Doctor Who, Star Wars, and Game of Thrones and find tons of examples of people nitpicking the tiniest of details in a scene and blowing whatever it is out of proportion.
Another problem is that since it's such a subjective trope, it's not clear if there's supposed to be any sort of in-fandom consensus on the example in-question, or if every example is valid under the "it's called YMMV for a reason" excuse, even if the only person who thinks the example is Narm is the troper who adds it in.
I think it needs to be clearer whether nitpicks are valid examples of Narm, especially since nitpicking overlaps so often with barely-disguised complaining. The most frequent offenders for Narm entries I see are complaining, nitpicking, adding jokes, and ZeroContextExamples. I'm going to use Venom (2018) as an example, with my comments in bold:
- The scene of Eddie freaking out on the medical table is presented as the teaser's Money-Making Shot. It... doesn't quite work as intended, which isn't helped by it being sped up, making it look like a parody.
- The final trailer features a more complete version of the clip showing Venom's face "shutter" over Eddie. Whether or not this works or if it looks like a cheap special effect depends on who you ask.
- What makes the freakout even more narmful is that Eddie's screams are different screams playing on top of each other. The actual film lacks this strange effect. This example seems fine to me, but falls into the "The trailer is Narmy but the finished product isn't" doublespeak.
- The leaked trailer revealed some pretty terrible lines (“The guy you work for is an evil person.”). Tom Hardy's horrible New York...ish(?) accent isn't doing the delivery any favors either. And it really does not help that his voice cracks on the reading of "evil person". Thankfully, that line is not in the film proper. Do we keep examples that are purely in the trailers? Also an example of "thing falls flat" instead of "thing is funny."
- Hardy's line reading of "You're not real, you are just in my head." sounds like he's suffering from Elmuh Fudd Syndwome. At worst, he sounds like Adam Sandler's signature Manchild babbling. However there's some speculation that, based on the context of the scene and Eddie's stumbling movements, he's actually drunk, or perhaps even overdosed on medication (considering he was seen taking a bunch of pills, thinking he's sick). That and it could be a case of Reality Ensues, as it's unlikely anyone would keep the mental clarity to speak normally as an alien parasite is slowly bonding with their body. Natter. Goes back and forth between snarky complaints and defending the moment. Also nitpicking.
- Movie trailers cutting quotes out of context to form a new sentence is nothing new, but the editing on the line "you will only hurt bad people" is particularly poor, and it's very easy to hear that the line has been cut together out of separate pieces of dialogue. Not really a dramatic thing, so I don't think it counts as Narm. And it definitely isn't funny, it just falls flat.
- How Jenny Slate's character pronounces "symbiote" note . Plus, her giving firm, equal stress to all three syllables like she's speaking some foreign language. Luckily, this was cut from the theatrical release. Nitpicking and not funny.
- The shot of Eddie crashing straight through a half-fallen tree in the forest that he could just as easily have ducked under comes across as more comedic than cool, as if they just needed an additional gratuitous shot of something breaking. Especially if your mind goes to Victor from Wet Hot American Summer and his inexplicable refusal to jump over anything. It really does not help that the evil bad-guy vehicle chasing him looks like a slightly modified golf cart. The context for this one in the movie is that Venom is taking control of his body and forcing him to blindly flee through the woods to escape the Life Foundation. Context makes it not-Narm. Cut?
- Although it may look better in the context of the full scene, Eddie flying 50 feet into the air on his motorcycle off a slightly steep hill seems to rather severely break the laws of physics. Clearly written before the movie came out. Cut?
- The Jump Scare (on both sides of the fourth wall) where Venom suddenly shouts Eddie's name as he brushed his teeth would have been much more scary if not for the fact that the latter Screams Like a Little Girl. There's also the fact that he somehow throws himself backwards so hard that he crashes into the bathroom wall. Intended as comedic, so it isn't Narm.
- Remember how creepy and awesome that shot from the second trailer of the symbiote forming around Eddie's face in order to eat a guy was? In the third trailer, the potential Nightmare Fuel of that moment is significantly undercut by Venom slobbering all over the man's face with its tongue in an amusingly over-the-top manner. One is reminded of the scene with Patrick licking the yellow popsicle, or perhaps "This is the taste of a liar".... This seems pretty in-character for Venom. I'm not sure with this one.
- The guy who Carlton Drake subjects to Orifice Invasion in the third trailer would have been disturbing, if not for the victim's bland expression. Moment that falls flat; not funny. Cut.
- The symbiote's Venom-face forming on the end of Eddie's arm to talk to him strongly resembles a deranged hand puppet rather than a vicious alien parasite. There's also the fact that they can communicate telepathically, making that sequence unnecessary. Seems fine.
- Venom's violent threats to his enemies are this if they're not aggressively tasteless Black Comedy. His threat to mutilate a man until he's "like a turd on the wind" is particularly groan-inducing, especially coming after a genuinely frightening threat. How It Should Have Ended was even driven by this to make a video on just the trailer for the very first time, in which he mangles a bunch of other sayings. Pretty sure they are intended as comedy, so it's not Narm. Cut.
- The animation of the yellow symbiote just looks like mozzarella cheese come to life. Nitpick. Also... inaccurate? It's more of a mucus yellow.
- After Venom heals Eddie's broken legs, he flatly states "My legs! They were broken... and now they're not broken..."
- "My leg!" Seems fine to me.
- "HOSPITAL!!!! (extremely long pause) Now!" Zero-Context Example.
- Eddie and Anne quite casually discussing cannibalism as one of the symbiote's favorite activities. It's something that would probably sincerely shock and disgust the average person and likely require therapy, and yet it's bandied about like it's a pretty normal occurrence. These kinds of entries are tricky to me. They seem valid at first glance, but there's something off about them. I don't think this one counts if the work itself is treating the moment lightly.
- Any menace from Cletus Kasady is completely undercut by Woody Harrelson's truly ridiculous wig. A common comparison is that it causes him to look like a live-action Sideshow Bob, or a make-up-less Pennywise. Uses complainy word-choice. Otherwise fine.
- Kasady promising that there will be "carnage" after he gets out is so on-the-nose that it feels like it's straight out of a parody. First off, that's not an example of Anvilicious. Secondly, this verges on a nitpick to me. I'm not sure. It's not really funny, just lame.
- The final trade of words between Venom and Riot before the final battle is nothing but total Ham-to-Ham Combat - that and the two symbiotes happen to be Perpetual Smilers, which just gives off the feeling that they don't really give that much of a damn about their goals.
- Towards the end of the film, it's revealed that Venom used to be something of a loser on his home planet, like Eddie. This is his entire reason for wanting to save the Earth. Moment played as a joke, so it isn't Narm.
- Despite angrily forcing Eddie to spit out cooked meats because they're no longer living animals, the symbiote develops a taste for tater tots, and it practically demands that Eddie buy some during a conversation in the ending. The director admitted in an interview that the writers just thought it was funny and put it in the script. It unfortunately invites comparisons to a similar tots-focused scene in Napoleon Dynamite as a result. Entry admits it's a joke. So it isn't Narm.
- Drake having bonded with Riot is treated as a huge shocking twist going into the final battle... except for the fact that the audience was already well aware of it and saw the whole process. It feels very much like a consequence of Executive Meddling to give Riot more screentime. Another tricky example. Seems to fall under "scene doesn't work" instead of "scene is funny."
- Right after Eddie is separated from the symbiote, a rather obvious ADR overdub replaces the intended "fuck you" with the much less vicious "we're done". Not really funny, just falls flat.
- Eddie's "DRAKE! STOP!" sounds less like he's in pain and more like a little kid telling his Big Brother Bully to stop giving him a wedgie. Nitpicking. Most people wouldn't even pay this sequence any mind.
Another issue with Narm is the distinction between moments that are unintentionally funny on their own, and moments that are only unintentionally funny after Memetic Mutation or similar feat. Does the latter truly count as Narm? Because you can make the case that everything that has ever been made can fall under that.
Edited by MisterApes-a-lot on Mar 31st 2019 at 7:06:31 AM
You see, painters aren't child psychologists, but an entirely different profession made up of people who paint things, whereas child psychologists study the psychology of children. This child psychologist, then, has a name which describes something entirely other than the task which makes up the majority of their professional life. How ridiculous!
I'd explain more, but I must depart; I have an appointment with my hairdresser, one Mr. Barber, who I chose because I could take no other cutter of hairs seriously.
Good day.
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
![[lol]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/lol2v12_4863.png "[lol]"){kind=small}
You get a Forum Win for that one.
Edited by WarJay77 on Dec 9th 2019 at 5:39:25 AM
Current Project: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
I actually googled "painter psychologist" to see if there was some allegedly humorous reference I was missing, and got nothing except an actual child psychologist named Dr Painter.
I went ahead and cut it.
Industrious Incisors
Someone put this in YMMV.Pokemon Sword And Shield:
Piers' introductory scene. The camera zooms in on him giving you a Kubrick Stare over his microphone, looking cool and tapping his heel to the beat of the music...and then he starts "singing" with absolutely no sound coming out of his mouth and a lot of the intimidating factor is lost. Meanwhile the crowd he's singing to is absolutely howling, he's still tapping his foot, and his microphone is giving off feedback whine as he twirls it around, making his silence even more noticeable. While the game doesn't have any kind of voice acting in it, a lot of fans wished that they had added some kind of song-like noise other than the BGM to make the scene less awkward.
I’m not entirely sure the scene is even supposed to be particularly serious, let alone enough for any event to qualify as narm.
SoundCloud
Cut. Awkward =/= Narm.
Anjail
Can Pierce's introduction be counted as Narm Charm then?
Just a some guy.
Short-Term Projects herald
YMMV.The Lion King 2019 has a lot of entries that like more like "falls flat" than "drama gone accidentally funny".
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The page for Narm Charm says "This is Narm Charm, something that by all reason should kill the drama, but doesn't." I think it says it includes both when the thing works in spite of the Narm and when it works because of the Narm. Not sure how Piers's introduction is meant to be dramatic, so I don't see how it could be Narm Charm.
My thoughts:
- Narm:
- James Earl Jones was approaching ninety years old when the film was in production, and it becomes very clear that his voice has greatly aged since the original film twenty-five years ago. Sad as it is, Jones is widely agreed to not have the same power behind his voice that he used to have, and while he can do the "voice from beyond" such as Mufasa's appearance in the clouds just fine, his more demanding lines leave something to be desired. His scolding of Simba in particular goes from furious to gently agitated, and some audio from the original film is reused for "If you ever come near my son again" and "I'm coming Simba, hold on". Nonetheless, many felt no one else could voice such an iconic character. "He sounds too old" doesn't sound like "so dramatic it's cheesy". Cut.
- The sequence where Rafiki finds out Simba is alive. In the original, he comes across some pollen carrying Simba's scent; here, he finds a piece of his mane... after an Overly Long Gag of the mane floating down a river, being carried by a bird, eaten by a giraffe, ending up in said giraffe's dung, the dung being rolled across the desert by a dung beetle, and finally being carried by some ants that happen to pass by Rafiki's tree. I haven't seen the movie, so I don't know if it was meant as a gag. If it is, it's a definite cut. Regardless, it's not described as "so dramatic, it's cheesy", so I'd argue for cutting it.
- While Beyonce's musical contributions to the film have been praised, her actual performance as Nala has not been so warmly received. Beyonce's delivery is stilted and lifeless, making Nala's more serious moments feel boring and almost comical as a result. Dull Surprise is usually just "thing falls flat". I'd say cut, unless a specific scene can be cited where it's trying to be so dramatic that it comes off cheesy. An instance of Dull Surprise that might qualify as Narm could be "I love you, wife." from Lost in Space.
- When Simba and Nala reunite, Nala instantly recognizes Simba the moment he recognizes her, rather than realistically being confused at first like in the original. This despite the fact that she thought Simba was dead and he's now a grown lion who looks completely different from his cub self. Then she rejoices for only about five seconds before she turns serious and tells Simba that he has to come home. Her change of tone is so abrupt it can come off as comical. Similarly, after "Can You Feel the Love Tonight" is over, they have their argument which lasts for a few seconds before Nala decides she "made a mistake" and walks off, again happening so quickly after the love song it can be hard to take seriously. "You can be snarky using Fridge Logic" example, which I usually find to be misuse. I'd argue for cutting it.
- The voice-acting is top notch work. The photo-realistic CGI is breathtaking. They often do not work together, as only three or four of the film's myriad animals seem like they get actual emotive faces. This leads to young Simba looking rather awkward when his father falls to his death; the cry is heart-wrenching, but the face looks... like a kitten meowing. "Thing falls flat." And too general. Cut.
- About half of the rewritten "Be Prepared" is Scar simply shouting the title over and over, actually kind of sounding like more new lyrics were supposed to go there but then they hit the deadline and just threw a bunch of "Be Prepared"s in. If his repeated utterances of "Be prepared" were meant to increase the drama, it would be a valid entry. I'm assuming it's not though, and this is just a "Snarky using Fridge Logic" entry. Cut.
- The iconic "Long live the King" moment is often ridiculed, due to Chiwetel Ejiofor's awkward reading of the line, and then slapping Mufasa in the face instead of throwing him. It doesn't help that the original scene is one of the most dramatic moments of not only the movie, but of Disney animation overall, which was really hard to live up to. James Earl Jones' "Scar... help me!" and falling scream as Mufasa also sound awkward and stilted compared to the raw terror he expressed in the original. Rewrite this so it's not just "The scene falls flat". The movie tries to throw a lot of dramatic weight into the slap. Cut the second half of the entry for just complaining and being "thing falls flat" misuse.
- The opening of "Can You Feel the Love Tonight?" comes completely out of nowhere, feeling like there should have been at least a couple extra seconds to build that it's time for another song. Also, Pumbaa's brief and funny interjections from the original are expanded to pure Don't Explain the Joke territory. Furthermore, the scene takes place in broad daylight, which clash heavily with the song's chorus and the line "the sweet caress of twilight". Line by line: Fridge Logic snark, humor, Fridge Logic snark. Cut the whole thing.
- Simba's flashback of Mufasa's death once Scar reveals the truth. In the original, the animation is set against a deep red backdrop, with the camera zooming in on cub Simba's pupil before shifting to Simba lunging at Scar. In this version, the footage of Mufasa plunging to his death and Simba's reaction are simply slowed down (not helping matters is that, in the remake, the flashback also includes Scar, despite Simba only learning his involvement that very moment). Keep? Cut the last aside as unnecessary.
Short-Term Projects herald
Above analysis looks good.
I found this on Narm.Anime:
- Cardcaptor Sakura features at least one example caused by nothing more than an unfortunate coincidence in casting. In one episode toward the end of the series, Yukito passes out and falls off a second-floor balcony. Touya catches him by one hand and frantically screams his name, trying to wake him up. What should have been a tense, dramatic scene is somewhat marred by Touya sounding exactly like Shuichi Shindou (both are voiced by Tomokazu Seki) yelling at Eiri Yuki. Considering how different Shuichi and Touya are, personality-wise, much lulz are often had at the expense of the sub scene.
Reads like meta fridge snark to me. Cut?
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If this doesn't count, cut the page, since the other entry is Ear Worm, which isn't YMMV.
- Narm: Can happen when she tries to sing in a foreign language but bites off a tad more than she can chew. Notable examples include "HOLLOW" (English) and "La Corolle" (French) in Navigatoria, or "Umineko no Naku Koro ni~Rengoku~" (Italian) in Harmonia. The latter is rather strange since she doesn't usually have this much trouble with Italian…
Heart shaped bamboo is hardly implausible. In fact it's rather common.
I agree with you. I've seen plenty of heart-shaped bamboo in my time — and that's going back a lot of years (although, on a personal level, I do think it is a corny thing to do). I'd say Reality Is Unrealistic, but it seems far too minor.
Edited by Wyldchyld on Dec 20th 2019 at 7:33:03 PM
If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
Doesn't give any indication that it's cheesy. Cut.
Same as above. Cuttity cut.
I know Narm.Star Wars has already been mentioned [recently read through the entire thread], but I think there still might be some things to say about it.
First off, The Rise of Skywalker was released on Friday (woohoo!), and it immediately got like 5 Narm examples. One of which claims the film is a rip-off of Avengers: Endgame, which is quite literally impossible, as the two came out within 8 months of each other. I discussed that in the Removing complaining thread AND an ATT thread. However, it looks like someone didn't get the Memo and went ahead on adding it back, this time phrases slightly differently. I... I have no words for this.
I also have a pretty huge problem with how a lot of the examples from the newer films are from the trailers. While the amount of SW fans who have seen the trailers for the older films are a minority, thus making those teasers Unacceptable Targets, the amount who have seen the newer ones are nearly 100%, mainly due to YouTube and the rest of the internet. But it feels really unfair to bash something over the advertisements for it and praise a different work that you never saw the advertisements to.
My plan is for us to keep the page (no movie is without sin!), but remove all the Square Peg, Round Trope.
Industrious Incisors
Given how contentious Star Wars in general has been recently, it might also make sense to mention something to the offending tropers. Without a firm ruling, the bad examples will just keep coming back.
I did PM the original editor for Narm abuse, but they haven't responded yet. I will also PM the other one for laying the ground work for an Edit War, which is a serious crisis for any page.
Industrious Incisors
Sorry, I should have been more specific. I meant that something should be posted on the page, possibly with the backing of mod enforcement. Even if these users come to an understanding, there will be more where they come from.
SoundCloud
As XFllo mentioned on the ATT thread, the page itself is just way too long. I propose that we re-write the page or create an entire other thread for removing examples from it.
Just for reference, where would a clean out for a single page go? Short Term Projects? Wiki Talk?
Short-Term Projects herald
Here. If an entire page is full of suspected misuse, bring it here to discuss.
EDIT: All pages in the Narm namespace.
Edited by Brainulator9 on Dec 22nd 2019 at 10:58:25 AM
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No, I said we should create an entire thread for that page, and was wondering what thread namespace to use, though I suppose we could just figure it all out here.
Right now, we need to remove all Narm.Star Wars examples that are about the trailer instead of the films themselves.
Short-Term Projects herald
Single-page threads go under Projects: Short-Term, yeah.
So, are we all in agreement that Narm.Star Wars should get its own thread?
Short-Term Projects herald
No, just discuss it here.
I don't get it, either.
Current Project: Incorruptible Pure Pureness