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DeadlyAssassin
topic
10:23:28 AM Oct 28th 2014
Okay, I'm bit confused about the second part of Unfortunate Implicatons. Is it about that female Shepard looked slutty because she had blonde hair, or is it about the players who felt this way?
SeptimusHeap
moderator
03:32:42 PM Oct 28th 2014
It's also uncited, which is why I have removed it.
deathedge
topic
08:46:53 PM Sep 27th 2013
How is Rannoch: Geth Fighter Squadrons not considered That One Level? I've seen a few people asking for help on it, confusing anyone who tried to help them, and it is tedious, long, and the self replicating Reaper infections made me personally waste hours... I'm still on it by the way (this is my 4th playthrough, but this one level is what almost made me give up on the game period as it takes WAY too long to complete.) I can't be the only one who utterly hates this level. I wish it was more like the virtual world you got in Project Overlord, but that's besides point.. xx
VeryMelon
01:24:39 AM Oct 27th 2013
Because the level has no combat and gives you 2 free Intel upgrades.
Spirit
topic
05:48:01 PM Mar 23rd 2013
edited by Spirit
The Catalyst has been put up and removed under Creator's Pet a few times now. I'd like to clear this up so as to prevent a future Edit War. I'd contest that he doesn't qualify on the ground that he does not fulfill all four mandatory points on the page.

Opinions would be welcome.
helterskelter
06:17:36 PM Mar 24th 2013
He's a Diabolus Ex Machina that everyone hated. Not a Creator's Pet.
SomeNewGuy
topic
12:03:33 PM Nov 19th 2012
There is no moral justification for sabotaging the genophage cure. The whole reason the Krogan started the Rebellion to begin with was because the Council stabbed them in the back following the Rachni War. All they wanted was the recognition they deserved, and what do they get? A Depopulation Bomb that has, until Shepard enters the picture, doomed their entire race. There literally hasn't been a single Krogan child born since the Genophage was deployed. The issue of the Krogan dying out was a major plot point of the first game, as the reason so many Krogan sided with Saren was because he was promising them a cure. They joined him out of survival. Not to mention siding with the Dalatress involved murdering two of your closest allies and friends in cold blood, without a single hint of remorse.
CrimsonZephyr
09:53:30 PM Dec 9th 2012
Yeah, no. The Krogan were pillaging the Galaxy. The whole reason information about the Turian moon of Menae is classified is because Krogan fleets were using moons to Colony Drop planets. The original dispute was over colonization rights. From that minor dispute to the near destruction of galactic civilization. The Turians chose the genophage because otherwise they would have had to commit genocide. There are indeed compelling reasons to keep it in place.
helterskelter
06:52:26 PM Dec 25th 2012
edited by helterskelter
First, the Council was happily granting the Krogan new planets and colonies the krogan. However, the krogan population was no longer being killed off by each other or by war, and because of their very high rate of birth and maturity, kept needing more and more planets. The Council eventually said they couldn't grant anymore, so the krogan began colonizing already-colonized planets. This turned to war.

The krogan genophage is not causing the literal extinction of their species. Krogan DO have children, and have continued to have them since the deployment of the genophage.

It's worth noting most krogan do not care about the survival of their species, only themselves. The reason they were dying out is because they were too busy killing each other to conserve life.

It's also worth noting that both Wrex and Mordin can be dead at this point, and Wreav is a complete tool whom you would not want to lead the krogan.
Zaptech
10:44:43 AM Jan 10th 2013
There is a moral justification for sabotaging the genophage cure. It's called "The Salarian Navy."

You're at war for the survival of an entire galaxy. It's up to Shepard to decide which would benefit the galaxy more: the navies of the Salarian Union, or the ground-pounding might of the krogan.
SpringRights
11:07:07 AM Jan 11th 2013
"Not to mention siding with the Dalatress involved murdering two of your closest allies and friends in cold blood, without a single hint of remorse."

Actually, if Wrex died in ME 1 and you told Mordin to destroy the cure data in ME 2, Mordin can be convinced to turn his back on the genophage cure.
helterskelter
topic
08:17:07 AM Sep 15th 2012
edited by helterskelter
About Samantha Traynor's Ensemble Darkhorse status, from the page:

"Generally, it's used to describe a side character making up part of the Ensemble, either a non-lead secondary character or a mere Flat Character, who can sometimes become unexpectedly popular with the fandom..."

The squadmates are lead secondary characters. Samantha Traynor is not. I think it's quite clear she qualifies.
KingZeal
08:18:08 AM Sep 15th 2012
Yeah. I'm not seeing the problem.
TobiasDrake
12:42:51 PM Sep 17th 2012
Throw my vote in too. Samantha is a minor supporting character. I don't see a problem here.
MrParadox
08:15:18 PM Sep 17th 2012
edited by MrParadox
The thing is that Samantha has more cutscenes and dialogue than many of the other ensemble darkhorses in the Mass Effect series. She is involved more into the main plot than someone like Engineer Adams or Dr. Chakwas yet somehow they are not considered to be Darkhorses (disregard their actual popularity for a second). While it could be argued that she is a darkhorse because she was only in one game, keep in mind it could have potentially be true for the characters debuted in the first game. I'll admit that maybe putting her as a main character could be stretching it in retrospect but I feel that her actions have put her past being a minor character who can potentially be forgotten but is not to a character that is not as involved to the story as the squad members but has enough screen-time to show that she is more than just a minor character, overall compared to Joker or Anderson in the first game, not enough to be considered super important to the plot but enough to know that she can comfortably be remember for a lot more stuff than just "I think she's cool".

That's my two-cents on this one. Agree or disagree if you want but if anything, I would at least wait until there are no more DL Cs released for ME 3 to put her as a darkhorse or not.
helterskelter
06:28:57 AM Sep 21st 2012
"yet somehow they are not considered to be Darkhorses (disregard their actual popularity for a second)."

No, that's actually completely relevant. Bringing up Chakwas and Adams is pointless, as they're not Darkhorses.

Mr Paradox, she is frankly a minor character. Of the minor characters, she has more dialogue and screentime than most, but she's still minor. She only has two or three conversations that I recall. She has all the relevance (but actually less of the dialogue, I think) of Kelly. She's more popular than some companions—like Samara, Vega, or Grunt.

I fail to see how she doesn't apply. I'm pretty sure Eve has more dialogue as well, but she's not as popular. I don't think you'd argue Eve wasn't a minor character. An important minor character, but not main or major.

"I would at least wait until there are no more DL Cs released for ME 3 to put her as a darkhorse or not."

That's silly. It could take a year or two for that to happen; maybe longer. If it just so happens she gets a lot of screentime in the DLC, then we'll still note by the first game, where she was minor, she was very popular. In fact, it would be her popularity that would presumably give her more screentime later. It's even noted in Ensemble Darkhorse this happens.
MadCat221
topic
11:41:07 PM Aug 29th 2012
edited by MadCat221
I just noticed that someone took down my entry about Kai Leng being a Villain Sue. Why? What the heck is the point of YMMV if people still take stuff down?

He does ninjaflips everywhere. He walks around with a freakin' sword in a sci fi setting where guns are complexly computerized. He goes "No, now it's fun" at a 3v1. He induces cutscene incompetence in everyone around him, the most egregious of which is the C-SEC sky car scene, and the cutscene incompetence that characters should be incapable of serves only to attempt to sell him being suparduparkewl. He even has a Heads I Win, Tails You Lose moment which, again, only serves to try and sell him being "awesome". He just *SCREAMS* Villain Sue at me. I can't stand him on a meta level. He's a badly designed villain who fits in better in a Capcom game and is in there to satisfy some writer's sophomoric want to have ninjas in the wrong setting. He's a close second in bad writing behind the ending debacle. If anyone in the MEVerse fits Villain Sue, it's Kai Leng. Removal of him from Villain Suedom defies the whole purpose of the YMMV category.

EDIT: A more in-depth example of his Villain Suedom with the glaring cutscene incompetence on Shep's part in the Squad Car scene. They could have done the brakes, or the the roll spin, and then have Leng still hold on somehow, which would have effectively sell him being an Implacable Man. Instead, we have him land, do a "menacing" pause before looking at Shepard, who then succumbs fully to cutscene incompetence and starts shooting through the canopy, then opens the door on an in-flight skycar to fire again, have Leng put up that cheesy hand shield, then stab the car, then saunter off again looking "menacing" to his getaway car.

Take Draco's Leather Pants off your head and see: Kai Leng is a Villain Sue.
SeptimusHeap
moderator
08:23:38 AM Aug 30th 2012
YMMV is most definitively not "everything goes". A Villain Sue needs to be improbably successful. Most of your arguments haven't anything to do with that.
MrParadox
09:33:01 PM Sep 17th 2012
edited by MrParadox
Reasons he is not a Villain Sue:

1. He has never successfully completed his missions through pure skill alone and the one he does complete (Thessia) he only won because he had backup.

2. A lot of characters in the game have made derogatory comments about Kai Leng, Thane practically stated that he should be embarrassed that a terminally ill drell manage to best him. If he was a Villain Sue, then everyone would praise him as a Worthy Opponent.

3. Bioware was well aware that he had a lot of Misaimed Fandom before Mass Effect 3 and it could be argued that they made him completely unlikable to counteract Draco in Leather Pants. It may have worked a little too well.

4. No one in the game has commented about his looks.

And your post has pretty much devolved to Complaining About Characters You Don't Like which is not what YMMV is about.
Zaptech
topic
09:55:34 PM Aug 12th 2012
Okay, Padding. It's been pulled and re-added multiple times. Here's the current version:

  • Padding: The Search and Rescue missions, of which there are over thirty. To start, most involve no gameplay except "overhear this guy talking about missing something out in a certain system, go there and scan the planet, check the journal about the location of the quest giver, go back to the Citadel, and wait for it to load six times in all in between these steps" and no selectable dialogue note , yet you still have to do them to build up EMS points if you want to get the best ending. Some of them are locked out from being completed until you advance further into the game.

Okay. Let's come up with a version that we can agree upon.
QueenOfTheSirens
02:01:15 PM Aug 13th 2012
There is a gameplay element to Search and Rescue: while scanning, there's the possibility of being discovered by the Reapers, requiring you to escape before they capture you.
MrParadox
09:45:36 AM Aug 31st 2012
While its highly recommended to do Search and Rescue to get the best ending, you can also do multiplayer to get the best ending as well. Heck, if you promote characters enough times, you don't even have to touch multiplayer or do Search and Rescue anymore.
Zaptech
topic
12:13:32 AM Aug 12th 2012
Okay, another one: We really, really need to hash out the text for Breather Boss regarding Kai Leng in a way that is both accurate and concise, without droning on and on about it.

I will note that he very much does have a one-hit kill move like other Phantoms. I've personally seen it used on Shepard on Hardcore difficulty when I got too close to him.
CPFMfan
12:19:13 AM Aug 12th 2012
edited by CPFMfan
I'v played both fights numerous times, and: he's a complete joke even on Insanity for me, and I'm not a good player. I have a few other people who can attest to this. He lacks several abilities of normal Phantoms, has dumber AI, is fought in a cramped space, has a weaker gun, never tries to take cover (unlike normal Phantoms), is more cowardly, and never, ever tries to use his One-Hit Kill. Even when he does (he never has for me, by the way), you can still Press X to Not Die, unlike normal Phantoms.

Also, as an experiment, I set the difficulty to Normal. I literally beat him by sitting behind cover and doing nothing.
Zaptech
09:54:23 PM Aug 12th 2012
Okay, and? I already agreed he's a Breather Boss. I'm not asking whether he is one or not, I'm asking us to come up with a version of the text that we can agree on that doesn't sound like whining or bashing the character, because 99% of all entries regarding Kai Leng break down to bashing him, which is really annoying.
CPFMfan
12:50:05 AM Aug 13th 2012
Okay then, tell me how the original text bashed his character:

"Breather Boss: Despite being built up as Shepard's equal and showing off impressive skills in cutscenes, Kai Leng himself is incredibly easy. He's mostly just a buffed-up Phantom, but he is fought in a cramped space, and lacks numerous abilities that Phantoms possess- including invisibility and a shield gauntlet. He also keeps his distance more than the more easily-killed Phantoms, and his gun doesn't do as much damage. In the final battle, it's really hard for him to actually kill you- his flunkies (including, ironically, two Phantoms) are a much bigger threat than he is."
QueenOfTheSirens
topic
04:58:46 PM Aug 5th 2012
You know, this page really needs to be cleaned up. Many example are simply shoehorned in to whine about the ending or any other aspect anyone can think up, with many of the attacks on the game being inaccurate to boot.
NordRonnoc
05:20:29 PM Aug 5th 2012
Including the Padding trope or is it valid? I rewrote a part of it so it can be more accurate.
QueenOfTheSirens
12:11:39 PM Aug 6th 2012
Padding is questionable, because it's optional and not all of them need to be done. Is planet scanning in ME 2 included as padding? If it's not, I don't think search and rescue would qualify either.

For starters, I think we need to remove quite a few tropes that are just shoehorned in to say "some people didn't like the ending"; Contested Sequel, Ending Aversion, Shocking Swerve, and Writer Cop Out all whine about the same thing and simply come off as shoehorned in. Other than that, I think the links to ending bashers should be removed, as this site isn't for advertising people who didn't like a work of fiction.
NordRonnoc
08:47:22 PM Aug 6th 2012
edited by NordRonnoc
I would agree with you. I rewrote parts of that trope as a compromise. I tried my best without getting a lot of backlash. Also, if you haven't posted on the Mass Effect clean-up forum, do so.

Also, would it be possible to compress these tropes and remove the objectable parts?
NordRonnoc
08:02:35 AM Aug 9th 2012
Are you going to do it or will anyone else, probably me, do it?
QueenOfTheSirens
07:47:06 AM Aug 10th 2012
I can get to it. Shocking Swerve is really the only thing that needs to stay; Contested Sequel doesn't qualify when some people don't like only a specific part, Ending Aversion is just complaining, and Writer Cop Out doesn't apply as you do what you've been trying to do all along. The entry on the Ending Aversion page also needs to be rewritten, as it is quite inaccurate.
ccoa
08:41:04 AM Aug 10th 2012
edited by ccoa
  1. Ending Aversion is completely valid. Many people avoid playing the games because of endings - this is verifiable. That's the core of the trope. It's not "the endings suck", it's "people have heard the endings suck, and thus won't watch/play/read". I'm hard-pressed to find complaining in that.

  2. There's nothing in Contested Sequel that limits it in the way that you're trying to. There is/was genuine dislike of the sequel, and it really doesn't matter if that dislike was valid or restricted to only one part of the work.

YMMV is the place for "negative" tropes. We allow them here so long as the bashing is not excessive. People who dislike(d) the ending are just as welcome to their opinion as those who liked it, so long as they keep it in check.

NordRonnoc
02:19:12 PM Aug 10th 2012
edited by NordRonnoc
The main problem with the game was the endgame, which was fixed with the Extended Cut DLC. I think Ending Aversion is more valid than Contested Sequel, since the latter trope applies to a fictional work in general and, before the Extended Cut, the majority of problems for Mass Effect 3 was the endgame. If we could compress or rewrite these tropes, or perhaps add in a counterpoint about the Extended Cut, then it could work. Thoughts?
NordRonnoc
02:51:17 PM Aug 10th 2012
edited by NordRonnoc
I'll be deleting Contested Sequel. The Ending Aversion trope can stay, though with explaining why the original endings threw people off the series.
ccoa
02:52:11 PM Aug 10th 2012
That would indeed be better than simply pulling them.
CPFMfan
11:47:48 AM Aug 11th 2012
edited by CPFMfan
I don't think Contested Sequel should be removed. There are people who don't like this game for reasons other than just the ending.

Also, I say that Padding is a valid trope; read the trope page itself. It says that a Fetch Quest is a form of padding, and Mass Effect 3 has a lot of fetch quests. Unlike 2, these aren't simply picked up in normal missions; you have to fly around the map to get them. And they aren't really optional; you need them for the best ending.

To some of you, "YMMV page" seems to mean "whatever I agree with page", and anything else is 'whining'.
CPFMfan
11:53:26 PM Aug 11th 2012
edited by CPFMfan
If no objections are presented in a few hours, I'll re-add those tropes, slightly rewritten.
NordRonnoc
09:03:30 AM Aug 12th 2012
edited by NordRonnoc
I would object against Contested Sequel because for one, the trope focuses on the fictional work in general by the majority of the fanbase, not just a minority. This kind of complaining and whining isn't any different from Mass Effect 2. Also, the Search and Rescue Missions is like planet scanning in ME 2 and they are optional. Look at Queen Of The Siren's second post for more information.

In short, I would suggest leaving it as it is.
CPFMfan
11:48:01 AM Aug 12th 2012
edited by CPFMfan
Contested Sequel: Like I said, some people didn't care for it. That much is obvious by reading any online forum or review site. Mass Effect 2 is listed is a Contested Sequel even though the internet backdraft tied to it was much less extreme than this one, and that entry managed to be fairly civil and not call any one opinion stupid. I propose this be added as Contested Sequel: "Some people didn't care for the final entry of the series. While nearly everyone agrees that the game itself is amazing*, many fans had problems with what was done with the characters and the plot- and not just the ending. Let's leave it at that."

Padding: Like I said, it's on the trope page. I also think they should be added because of the extremely small amount of effort it actually takes to make one of those sidequests. And while they aren't required, most people are going to do them anyway for the best ending.

Also, stop calling any opinion that's not yours 'whining'.
QueenOfTheSirens
01:56:45 PM Aug 13th 2012
"Contested Sequel: Like I said, some people didn't care for it."

If that's the case, then every single sequel to a fictional work should have this trope in YMMV.
NordRonnoc
08:05:00 PM Aug 14th 2012
edited by NordRonnoc
Maybe it's a good idea to pull both Contested Sequel and Even Better Sequel since Mass Effect 3 is already on these trope pages. That applies with the former on Mass Effect 2.
ccoa
08:05:46 AM Aug 15th 2012
edited by ccoa
That's not how it works. All examples should be on both the work's example page and the trope page. Not one or the other only.

You're continuing an edit war while telling other people they can't because it would be edit warring. Discussion pages exist to work these things out without edit warring, not continue the edit war while talking.
NordRonnoc
08:43:09 AM Aug 16th 2012
edited by NordRonnoc
All right, consider it dropped. I would like to say I'm sorry for the trouble I've caused, if that means anything to you.
lrrose
topic
06:27:27 AM Jul 5th 2012
About the Writer on Board trope:

Synthesis is presented as having plenty of flaws. Not only does Shepard die, but Shepard forces "evolution" (not sure that it really is evolution if it is forced) on the galaxy to solve a problem that may only exist in the Catalyst's mind and the Reapers get exactly what they want.

In addition, the Catalyst says that it tried Synthesis before, but if failed because it was forced. Although the Catalyst claims that the galaxy is now ready for Synthesis, it doesn't explain why this is so and Shepard is still forcing a change on the galaxy. What is stopping the Reapers from determining that Synthesis will fail again and beginning the Cycle anew?

In conclusion, it's not as sunshine and rainbows as one might think.
Lightice
06:40:39 AM Jul 5th 2012
It doesn't matter whether you think personally that the Synthesis ending has flaws. The game presents it as being without any. That's the only thing that matters to impartial description of the trope. You are welcome to disagree with Bioware's assessment, but that is their view on the matter.
lrrose
06:47:28 AM Jul 5th 2012
edited by lrrose
Shepard get the option of telling the Catalyst that forcing evolution on the entire galaxy is morally wrong. How does that make it a flawless ending. And I have not seen anything that suggests that Bioware actually agrees with the Catalyst's views on the conflict between organics and synthetic.
Lightice
06:51:37 AM Jul 5th 2012
The epilogue tells you everything that you need to know about Bioware's attitudes to the Synthesis: absolutely everything works out, better than in any other ending. Shepard's (possible) opinion, put in to appease fans who dissapproved of the original endings, does not equal Bioware's opinion on the subject. Also, if Bioware does not consider Synthesis to be an ideal ending in your opinion, then the whole Writer On Board-trope is inappropriate, and should be removed entirely.
lrrose
06:52:17 AM Jul 5th 2012
edited by lrrose
Here, at about 10:50 is where the flaw in Synthesis is mentioned.

We both agree that this is a case of Writer on Board. What we are arguing over is whether the Synthesis ending is presented as being flawless. Which, come to think of it, is little more than semantics.

How about:

  • Writer on Board: The writers regard. the Synthesis ending a good deal more positively than the fanbase. It also results in the most unambigiously hopeful epilogue, implying eventual universal ascension into a Transhuman future.
Lightice
07:01:05 AM Jul 5th 2012
edited by Lightice
I am aware of what the Catalyst says in this ending, but it is not depicted having any kind of consequences. For whatever reason, Shepard's actions are not considered "forcing". Plenty of speculation can be made for why this is the case, but the epilogue does not give any sign of any kind of negative consequences.

What I'm pursuing here is impartial editing, something that I have had trouble with myself with this game, and am now trying to fix. I can see why Synthesis is a result of Writer On Board, but claiming that the game implies that this ending has just as much negative consequences as any other negates this trope. Either the ending is presented as ideal compared to the others, in which case the presumed flaws are simply Fridge Logic on the tropers' part, or the ending is implied to have flaws in the game itself, in which case such Fridge Logic has been taken into account, and it's not an ideal ending after all, negating the trope.

EDIT: I am not entirely happy with the new explanation either, since it implies that the fanbase is united in this opinion, which is not the case. I still consider it the simplest to explain that Synthesis is presented as being without any flaws by the game itself — this makes it Writer On Board, and does not negate the fact that players can still see negative effects in it. Those should be left for Fridge Horror, or some more appropriate trope, however.
lrrose
07:11:15 AM Jul 5th 2012
But the flaw is pointed out in the game itself. Besides, you yourself pointed out a second flaw, the fact that the ending requires Shepard's death.

Looking at Writer on Board's description, it looks like the trope is when the writers decide that they want to make a point and sacrifice the quality of their story telling to do so. The question is whether the writers actually believe that transhumanism is the only way to stop a war between people and AIs.
Virodhi
08:02:30 AM Jul 5th 2012
edited by Virodhi
Okay: The Problem With Synthesis and Writer Bias, Virodhi edition (YMMV as all hell, I know. Also, spoilerrific, because tagging this would take forever):

Synthesis is presented as the "best" ending in fairly unambiguous terms: It is the last ending to unlock, and only becomes available at reasonably high EMS. Similar conditions are usually the benchmark for Earn Your Happy Ending in other games, including ME 2, where you had to work your ass off and pay attention to squad assignments in order to get the golden ending.

Shepard not getting out alive had been foreshadowed throughout the game. Hell, just look at the Death Seeker entry and similar on the character sheet. Shepard dying in any ending wouldn't have been a surprise, and I think most players were okay with it at that point. It would be a worthy sacrifice. So that sort of negates it as a flaw in the Synthesis ending.

So the problem becomes that Synthesis isn't depicted as having any inherent flaws. Destroy? You kill off the geth and EDI, along with some other ambiguity. Control? The Reapers are still around, no matter the assurances you get. Synthesis? You get to have your cake and eat it too. Nothing is made of the fact that there's all sort of ethical concerns about playing god, etc.

Ultimately, to someone who is not overly fond of it, the Syntehsis ending comes off thusly: It is introduced out of nowhere in the last ten minutes of the game. It fails biology so very, very hard. It requires...god, magic...whatever you want to call it to even make it work, whereas Mass Effect had until that point attempted to stay internally consistent and go for a "show, don't tell" approach to its science. And most damning: it's the only ending that needs the Catalyst to work (it being the god/magic component mentioned above). Destroy had been the goal since day one, and could concievably have been accomplished via "mundane" means. Control was introduced as an idea in ME 2 and could have been an offshoot of Destroy, or something the Illusive Man comes up with after researching the Reaper larva. Synthesis? Comes out of nowhere in the last ten minutes of the series, and hasn't been foreshadowed as possible or even desireable until that one moment at the eleventh hour. And it only works because the Catalyst (the Starchild form, which also shows up out of nowhere) almost literally handwaves it. So in a sense, the Catalyst is the avatar of messrs Hudson and Walters, and exists only as a way to shoehorn in Synthesis as the golden ending, whether it fits or not. It's bad storytelling.
Lightice
08:25:19 AM Jul 5th 2012
I disagree on a number of points. There has been foreshadowing both to a driving force behind the Reapers, and to the possibility of an individual sacrificing themselves in order to bring greater understanding to the masses with Legion. Likewise, Shepard has, since ME2 embodied the potential for hybridization between synthetic and organic. I cannot see why Synthesis is any more "magical" than the Prothean Cipher, the rachni song, or many other elements in the story. It's meant to instill a sense of wonder to the player, which too much specific foreshadowing would have ruined; in this way it reminds of of the Lion-Turtle and Energybending from Avatar: The Last Airbender, introduced in the last minute to profoundly change the implications of the ending, but subtly foreshadowed throughout the last season. It fits within the rules of the world however, as it utilizes the very heavily foreshadowed Chekhov's Gun, the Mass Relays, and its purpose is to bring understanding between different forms of life, something that Shepard has been doing since the day one. That it uses technology previously unseen in the series does not negate its thematic appropriateness, just like the previously unseed Energybending fits perfectly in the themes of AtLA.

Now whether Synthesis has negative implications or not is a more complex question. I can certainly see negative side-effects in the social sphere, and Shepard can indeed be seen as imposing his/her will upon all the lifeforms of the galaxy without their consent. The Catalyst does not seem to consider this forcing however, presumably because it sees Shepard as the emissary of all organic life — and not entirely without justification. To me these issues do not ruin the Synthesis ending, however, though not acknowledging these possible issues does make it a case of Writer On Board.

I also don't understand hate for the "starchild", something that is clearly extracted out of Shepard's nightmares. Plenty of people even in This Very Wiki predicted that the game would end to the interference of the god-like creator of the Reapers, but for some reason they couldn't stand this prediction coming true. We are even hinted that something above the Reapers controls the pattern in which the life in galaxy develops on Thessia.
Virodhi
08:36:05 AM Jul 5th 2012
edited by Virodhi
For the record, I found the Lion Turtle and energybending to be an exercise in last minute asspulling too, so I guess it's just a matter of preference in storytelling. And that's okay. Agree to disagree, etc.

However: "I cannot see why Synthesis is any more "magical" than the Prothean Cipher, the rachni song, or many other elements in the story." Because it's described as "the next stage of evolution", which is ludicrous - evolution doesn't have stages, or even an ultimate goal. And until those last ten minutes, the "hybridization" of organic and synthetic in regards to Shepard has explicitly been an organic with machine bits tacked on: if he/she has kids, they won't be born as cyborgs. Yes, there are the Reapers, whose shells are at least made of liquified organics, but even then they're still software housed in a platform. New Reaper forms aren't born. They need to be built. At a glance, Synthesis is described as some weird Lamarckian deal with notions of machine dna and, if Joker and EDI getting all cuddly is to be taken at face value, honest-to-god reproduction. Without once getting into how, or the potential implications thereof.

So yes, most of my personal dislike of Synthesis comes from a reasonably hard science Sci-Fi universe suddenly having its golden ending hinging on the handwaving of some hardcore biology!fail.

I will cheerfully acknowledge your case for Writer on Board as being the more objective, and would like to boil my case down thusly: Synthesis is an example of Writer on Board, because all the other endings have their flaws clearly outlined (YMMV on whether it's a not-so-subtle attempt to steer you away from them), whereas Synthesis is presented as all positive without once outlining the potential issues.
AbstractIndigo
05:19:47 AM Jul 6th 2012
edited by AbstractIndigo
I'm not entirely sold on Synthesis being Writer On Board according to the page's definition, verses it just being a case of bad writing and an attempt to justify it to those who hated the original version.
MarauderShields
topic
02:34:06 PM May 4th 2012
Why is the YMMV page locked? Locking the whole page due to one case of minor vandalism seems extreme.
helterskelter
02:38:54 PM May 4th 2012
The person vandalizing was continuously making sock puppets. It was locked in precaution against that. Go here if you think edits ought to be made to the page.
JudgeSpear
05:18:15 PM May 4th 2012
Is the vandal's IP able to be banned so he/she cannot edit anymore on TV Tropes? Or does this person's IP dynamically change?
Telcontar
moderator
11:50:01 PM May 4th 2012
Yes and yes, as far as I can gather.
lu127
moderator
04:32:10 AM May 5th 2012
edited by lu127
He's using completely unrelated IPs and apparently has no life outside of declaring that everyone who didn't like the ending is an idiot and not a fan. So yeah, can't unlock these. That guy's a pain in the ass.
tsstevens
06:05:30 PM May 13th 2012
It's look like he's finally given up. Hopefully some time down the track we can unlock the pages.
SeptimusHeap
moderator
09:21:29 AM May 15th 2012
^Let's give it a few days, shall we? Someone just hit Locked Pages again - I will pull the ME 3 entry from there and put it to discussion on the discussion page to see if we can avoid chronic vandalism.
Telcontar
moderator
01:20:54 PM May 20th 2012
In case anyone's wondering if the few days are up yet, they aren't since he's just been at it again. I hope he stops for good soon.
tsstevens
01:22:53 PM May 20th 2012
Every night he sneaks into his secret compartment that holds his N7 armor and he cries himself to sleep into his life sized fem!Shepard doll, knowing he will never be worthy.
Lavaros
07:02:29 AM May 27th 2012
It's been several days, I've looked around and haven't found anymore vandalism, (the pages everyone mentioned) is this guy done, can we go back to reading, editing and having fun with this?
Telcontar
moderator
07:05:51 AM May 27th 2012
edited by Telcontar
Given that he's been doing this in spurts for nearly a month, often taking a couple day's break. Also, he or someone like him was at it yesterday big-time, but that was just hitting random pages (~134 in total). We probably want to have at least two weeks free of him before unlocking.
lilyxlightning
07:16:43 AM May 27th 2012
There's been a suggestion for a semi-protection lock for pages, and Fast Eddie said that he's working on something. When it's finished and implemented, the ME3 pages and other vandalized pages will probably go under semi-protection.
helterskelter
topic
05:01:20 PM Apr 8th 2012
edited by helterskelter
I draw issue with the Draco in Leather Pants distinction for Kai Leng. I have not personally seen anyone admit to liking Kai Leng out in the wild, and that dA group has 24 people in it. A fangroup (and fanart) on dA also does not necessarily follow that you are a fan of Kai Leng—it might follow that you simply like the art.

A Draco in Leather Pants is also not any bad villain that is popular. It's a character whose evilness is downplayed with fans. I haven't seen that happen at all.
tsstevens
02:18:26 PM May 8th 2012
helterskelter
02:47:24 PM May 8th 2012
What about them?
tsstevens
06:07:27 PM May 13th 2012
edited by tsstevens
I thought you were saying that a Draco in leather Pants character is not someone whose evilness is downplayed. Never mind, I read it more as Evil Is Cool and Ensemble Darkhorse.
Valiona
03:10:36 PM May 29th 2012
Draco in Leather Pants characters do not have to be well-liked; Sasuke of Naruto is one example of a character who has fans excuse his actions and a significant hatedom. Sometimes, the hatedom of such characters is in response to their status as a DILP.
helterskelter
09:46:07 AM Aug 3rd 2012
But my point is that he's not liked, period. He has a tiny, tiny, tiny fan base and nothing about it implies that his fans are trying to downplay his evilness. There's no reason for that trope to be there, and it confuses me as to why it is...is it because he's the only attractive human bad guy in the entire series, making some people feel like he default must be a DILP?
tsstevens
topic
06:23:06 PM Mar 31st 2012
We can't accurately refer to the game as a Player No Holds Barred Beatdown?
helterskelter
08:03:23 PM Mar 31st 2012
edited by helterskelter
There's no such trope. There's a No-Holds-Barred Beatdown, but reworking a trope is bad. We don't pretend a trope means something else just so we can put it down, especially if it's for something like complaining. Player Punch is another trope—and renaming it because you feel like this is an exceptional example is Fan Myopia, somewhat.
tsstevens
08:31:39 PM Mar 31st 2012
So all tropes that have a different name should be nuked? Is there some official word on this?
helterskelter
09:08:11 PM Mar 31st 2012
I think there are exceptions, like putting a character's name instead of just "he", but renaming a trope? You can ask Ask The Tropers if you wish.
Katana
05:30:45 AM Apr 5th 2012
It typically is fine in mainspace, but with YMMV it biases the entry towards a particular side, in my observations at least.
TobiasDrake
07:30:31 AM May 30th 2012
edited by TobiasDrake
What is the context of the Player No Holds Barred Beatdown? If it's being used to suggest that the sheer quantity of Player Punches delivered in the narrative of this installment rival a No Holds Barred Beatdown, then it may well be a legitimate combination of the terms; as the final installment, ME 3 held nothing back and had one powerful moment after another, many of which had legitimate claims to Player Punch. But if it's just being used to say "I hated the ending, therefore I'm potholing this trope as an overdramatic way of saying that I feel like the developers deliberately antagonized their players," then it's just Complaining About Endings You Don't Like.
tsstevens
05:09:24 PM May 31st 2012
It's the former, believe me. I hate the endings, I do, but in regard to discussing the Player No Holds Barred Beatdown I'm referring to Shepard having to face charges because s\he had to wipe out hundreds of thousands of Batarians to stop the Reapers, the Reapers invade Earth, a little kid Shepard had been watching rejects the offer for help, Anderson remains on Earth, Shepard sees the kid killed, s\he meets up with a former ally\love interest who is still sore about Cerberus, said LI is nearly killed, and Shepard is given the impossible task of getting Council aid before s\he starts having nightmares. That's in the first hour. It gets worse, I won't drop spoilers but that's what I'm talking about: Shepard's life in this game is shit and you get to wade through all of it, especially if you made some wrong decisions in the previous games.
SeptimusHeap
moderator
topic
01:36:30 PM Mar 26th 2012
edited by VmKid
(Vandal Edit undid. Septimus Heap, please replace this with the content of your original post.)
BornIn1142
07:30:15 AM Mar 29th 2012
edited by BornIn1142
While I don't dislike the final levels per se, I am rather disappointed that they didn't involve any sort of tactical application of resources and that War Assets were completely irrelevant to the combat situations there. And I believe there are people who share that opinion.
helterskelter
02:07:46 PM Mar 29th 2012
Part of the issue is where and what do you determine the last level to be. Is it the entirety of Earth, or just the Citadel? General opinion seems to hold that every post meeting the Star Child is really the crux of the issue. The confrontation between TIM with Anderson has been mostly praised so that's about half of that portion of the level.

It really does just seem to be the ending. The description of the trope notes it's the entire last level, not just the ending being bad. Eh, I'd settle for it being a different trope.
Katana
05:25:48 AM Apr 5th 2012
Gainax Ending already covers people's misgivings.
SeptimusHeap
moderator
topic
02:51:18 PM Mar 24th 2012
This And the Fandom Rejoiced entry could be either "changed" or "expanded". Which one is correct? (Please move it back corrected when you find out, without the Justifying Edit)
helterskelter
02:10:01 PM Mar 29th 2012
New content, that is being expanded and clarified. Nothing is being "changed". But I wouldn't be surprised if we saw a sort of Retcon that doesn't overtly change anything you see.Like, say, a comic book placing a clone where the hero died in later issues—the events you saw happened as you saw them, but your perception was wrong because it was at the time written differently.
AHundredandSixtyAcres
topic
02:13:36 PM Mar 22nd 2012
So why is removing a YMMV entry edit warring now?
SeptimusHeap
moderator
02:14:34 PM Mar 22nd 2012
Removing it repeatedly is edit warring. And participating into someone else's repeated deletion is also edit warring.
ccoa
03:40:01 PM Mar 22nd 2012
Indeed. So how about discussing why you think it isn't an example rather than edit warring?
AHundredandSixtyAcres
04:48:00 PM Mar 22nd 2012
edited by AHundredandSixtyAcres
For starters, "it's unfortunate because he's black" is A) extremely indescriptive and makes absolutely no sense, and B) attracting natter as the previous edits showed.
LucyZephyr
04:50:40 PM Mar 22nd 2012
Throwing in my lot with A Hundredand Sixty Acres. Drawing a line between Jacob cheating and his race is more skeevy than how it was handled in the game, and that's saying something.
ccoa
06:43:33 PM Mar 22nd 2012
Just about every entry on all the ME 3 pages and all over the wiki are attracting Natter right now.
Blacksun388
01:24:42 AM Mar 23rd 2012
Agreed with A Hundredand Sixty Acres here. I don't think Jacobs race has anything to do with his infidelity to Sheperd. There could have been a hundred different reasons for doing what he did. Not like he was thinking about it what with the his anti-cerberus activities going on. Probably assumed Shep was killed in the initial assault on earth.

Yeah Bioware made sorta a jerk move by not allowing anyone who started romance with Jacob (and as I understand it few did. He's the runner up for most bland human after Blandy Mc Gees tax accountant) but I doubt race had anything to do with it, intentionally or not.
ccoa
05:00:49 AM Mar 23rd 2012
The thing about Unfortunate Implications is that it doesn't have to be intentional to qualify. But since I'm getting agreement that it doesn't qualify unintentionally, I'll pull it to here for now.

  • Unfortunate Implications: Assuming you romanced him as FemShep, Jacob (the only African-American squad member in the series) cheats on Shepard and gets another woman pregnant. He claims that he thought he'd never see Shepard again, despite the fact that she was detained on Earth, not dead, and he didn't even bother to try to contact her

KingZeal
06:14:27 AM Mar 23rd 2012
edited by KingZeal
What does "it doesn't qualify unintentionally" mean?

ccoa
06:16:07 AM Mar 23rd 2012
It means that the people in this thread don't believe it to be an unintentional case of Unfortunate Implications. If you disagree with this, please do speak up.
KingZeal
06:16:48 AM Mar 23rd 2012
edited by KingZeal
The entire point to "Unfortunate Implications" is that the parallels between a stereotype and the thing that happens are able to be implied. Look at the trope image. His race probably had nothing to do with why that particular image was chosen. It doesn't change the fact that when you add said race, it takes on a completely different meaning.
ccoa
06:34:55 AM Mar 23rd 2012
"Black men cheat more often" isn't a racial stereotype that I've heard before.
ccoa
07:20:29 AM Mar 23rd 2012
Fair enough, that does seem to make it Unfortunate Implications.

How many male human character love interests are there?
JoieDeCombat
07:32:56 AM Mar 23rd 2012
Three. Kaidan, Jacob, and Steve Cortez.
KingZeal
07:34:34 AM Mar 23rd 2012
edited by KingZeal
Kaiden Alenko (who is revealed as bi in the third game) is the only other one for Fem!Shep. It took him two years to get over Shepard when she was unquestionably dead in the second game and he had only recently begun dating, and only at the insistence of his friends.

Steve Cortez is another male human love interest for a gay male Shepard.
ccoa
07:35:12 AM Mar 23rd 2012
That weakens the case somewhat.
KingZeal
07:41:32 AM Mar 23rd 2012
edited by KingZeal
Juxtapose him against Kaiden in my edit above, though. There's also the problem in that he got the woman he cheated with (and isn't married to) pregnant, and that his primary motivation is to be a better father than his was to him.

It Gets Worse when you consider that his father was one of the worst Complete Monsters in the series, having set up what was essentially a rape camp while he was marooned on a distant planet for over ten years.

Yeah, I get that all of these things are very "meh" on their own, but taken together? Holy crap.
ccoa
10:29:49 AM Mar 23rd 2012
Okay, how about this as a proposed re-write:

  • Unfortunate Implications: Jacob, a love interest who is only available to the female Shepard, is also the only love interest who will cheat on you. While it was probably unintentional, he's also the only Black human love interest in both the male and female paths, supporting the racial stereotype that Black men are lusty and more prone to cheating.

Question: Do any of male!Shepard's love interests cheat on him?
tsstevens
08:01:42 PM Mar 25th 2012
edited by tsstevens
Thinking...thinking...thinking...Ash doesn't know if she can trust him, but will remain loyal if he is. Liara is fiercely devoted to any Shepard regardless. Miranda doesn't cheat on him. Jack still holds a candle for Shepard if he romanced her. Tali really does love Shepard and doesn't cheat. And Kelly was more of a fling, she doesn't cheat on him.

How about this line of thinking with Jacob: Dick move BioWare, dick move. Okay, I did say I would lay off them. I don't think it would have been a deliberate move to have Jacob cheat, but I have to say I would expect better than for them to put that out in the first place.

How about this for a rewrite?

Unfortunate Implications: Jacob, a love interest who is only available to the female Shepard, is also the only love interest who will cheat on you. While it was probably unintentional, he's also the only Black human love interest in both the male and female paths. BioWare have long shown to be rather intelligent throwing in lots of examples of Genius Bonus and Fridge Brilliance, if this wasn't a deliberate move to demonize race then it is rather unfortunate for Jacob to be portrayed this way.
ccoa
06:19:53 AM Mar 26th 2012
I think implying that it might have been intentional is going to be a natter magnet. Better to assume good faith, I think.
tsstevens
04:39:21 PM Mar 26th 2012
I think the example itself would be trouble enough. It needs to be said though that BioWare really should know that this might cause trouble. I vote that we leave this out entirely.
KingZeal
12:50:52 AM Mar 28th 2012
I think your wording is fine, ccoa.

And no, I disagree with leaving it off. The trope was made for this sort of thing.
Katana
05:28:03 AM Apr 5th 2012
edited by Katana
YMMV is YMMV for a reason. Simply removing the trope is not a mature response, and reeks of favoritism without acknowledging that there are some legitimate grievances leveled against the game. Naturally any finger pointing of Unfortunate Implications is going to be controversial, and some may even be Flame Bait. But the Rule of Cautious Editing Judgement can applied here and hopefully invoking it will avoid edit wars.

With that said, people also have grievances with EDI's body being sex appeal taken to a blatant extreme, in addition to Tali's face being a simple photomanip, though the latter is already covered by They Just Didn't Care. Still there's something to be said that one of the biggest fan mysteries of the series was given a token nod at best.
tsstevens
06:14:47 AM Apr 5th 2012
Well, is the implications any more unfortunate than BioWare banning anyone who is critical of their work just as the game is to be released? I'd venture a racial issue is worth discussing and possible adding.
helterskelter
10:41:21 AM Apr 5th 2012
But YMMV tropes aren't simply a free-for-all tool for complaining. What unfortunate implications are there to Tali's face being a photo manip? They only had a bit of time to make it, a small scene only a few people would see wasn't given a lot of time, they used resources elsewhere? All that says is BioWare is a business with limited time and resources.

And as far as banning people—it depends. Is it legitimately provable? A lot of people have been lying about being banned by BioWare to cash in on the the EA hate train.
tsstevens
03:07:35 PM Apr 5th 2012
I used he comparison to say the idea of racism is an important one, more so than what someone on a web forum might do. But okay, can I prove people have been banned for criticizing the game? I never looked into it. Bringing in the policy when Mass Effect 3 is about to be released however, as opposed to, say, when there were problems with the Dragon Age writers being cyberbullied, that to me raises a few questions.
helterskelter
05:29:49 PM Apr 5th 2012
The policy was done about a week after she was bullied, which is also about a week before ME 3 was released. A policy that you can't be nasty to other people is hardly suspect.
tsstevens
07:14:35 PM Apr 5th 2012
In that case it would just be an unfortunate coincidence that the policy, which really these so called fans should be capable of following on general principle, was brought in when the game was going to be released.
helterskelter
08:04:49 PM Apr 5th 2012
It's not unfortunate. They are asking people to behave themselves. It may or may not have anything to do with the ending (but it also might have something to do with Hepler).

What are the bad implications of this? BioWare...wants people to behave?
tsstevens
09:22:01 PM Apr 5th 2012
BioWare bringing in a ZTP right before the game's release. If it is a reaction to recent cyber bullying then it is unfortunate timing in that it looks like it is to head off complaining about the endings. As it stands though really the developers are just the victims of sucky timing: of course people on their forum are to behave, it just sucks for them that this takes place right when the game is to be released.
helterskelter
10:38:02 PM Apr 5th 2012
And what are the unfortunate implications? What is bad about it? The timing is irrelevant.
tsstevens
10:51:38 PM Apr 5th 2012
What I was trying to say was how it looked like BioWare were trying to stamp out criticism of an upcoming game.

What are the implications of the Vogue magazine on the trope page? I wouldn't have picked it but someone did.
helterskelter
11:12:16 PM Apr 5th 2012
The rules are be civil. People aren't getting banned for criticism. You can't seriously be suggesting that there's something unfortunate about BioWare asking people to be civil.
tsstevens
12:25:20 AM Apr 6th 2012
Just the timing was unfortunate is all. I'm not stressed about it though, even if BioWare wanted to ban people for criticizing their games it's their forum.
helterskelter
06:17:55 AM Apr 6th 2012
"Effective immediately there is a zero tolerance policy on any form of abuse towards staff, moderators or other Community members."

This says nothing about banning people for criticizing their games. Reading the forums, there's plenty of criticism for everyone.
tsstevens
11:46:26 AM Apr 6th 2012
As I said the timing is unfortunate in how it can appear to some people. That's my opinion and I'm sticking to my guns on it.
KingZeal
02:18:09 PM Nov 10th 2013
After more than 18 months of stagnating, I'm going to add ccoa's proposed rewrite to the page. If anyone disagrees wih this move, please respond here.
KingZeal
topic
08:54:32 AM Mar 17th 2012
I can't find the rule that says memes have to be around a certain amount of time. Where is that written on the Memetic Mutation page?

Besides that, Kaiden not being able to find the geth has been around for a while now.
MadCat221
11:38:41 PM Aug 29th 2012
edited by MadCat221
  • EDIT* Crap, I hit Reply instead of New Topic. Ignore, delete.
back to YMMV/MassEffect3

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