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Wick check's good, so opening for discussion.
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No, the other one.
I've not checked, but a some of them can probably just be moved to Puff of Logic. The image on that page is one of the examples listed.
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Berserk Button: misusing Nightmare Fuel
I knew there was a relevant subtrope I forgot to mention! Moving certain examples to Puff of Logic would make sense.
I think that the problem is that the name Logic Bomb doesn't clearly state that it's about stopping MACHINES with paradoxes. A rename which explicitly mentions machines or computers would help a lot to curb misuse.
World's Toughest Milkman
I agree that there's a whole lot of misuse going on here, but I'd like to point out that writers often have characters who act like robots or computers in response to a logic bomb. This is particularly common in works which imagine that people can be programmed like computers/robots. Sometimes, it will turn out that a logic bomb is the only way to break the programming.
The important thing is that the logic bomb crashes the program. It shouldn't matter if the program is running on an electronic computer or a biological one (and note that those aren't the only choices). And it likewise shouldn't matter if the computer is evolved or built (and again, note that in some 'verses, electronic computers can evolve, and biological computers can be built).
Even acknowledging that, though, there's still plenty of clear misuse.
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Berserk Button: misusing Nightmare Fuel
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
If that's the case, the definition will need rewording since it currently seems to apply only to actual computers. If Tropes Are Flexible, then they should have flexible definitions.
^^ Good point. I would also like to see the description of Logic Bomb expanded to biological entities being trapped in a logical loop. Unless there is a trope already for it. Didn't see any examples fitting Puff of Logic but only skimmed through the wick check list.
Xfitr's post can probably fit right into the description with a little adapting:
"Writers will sometimes have characters who act like robots or computers in response to a logic bomb. This is particularly common in works which imagine that people can be programmed like computers/robots. Sometimes, it will turn out that a logic bomb is the only way to break the 'programming.'"
That could probably be thrown in right after the paragraph about Ridiculously Human Robots.
No, the other one.
The 8-Bit Theater example was the one I noticed as fitting Puff of Logic, since it's the page image there. I hadn't checked if there were more than that.
Anyway, if a character is treated like a robot, I think it's effectively a robot as far as the trope is concerned. I'm however unsure about anything involving magic, as that's a different beast, even if it may on occasions be similar to programming.
What actual examples would potentially fit under a wider definition that don't fit now as the description is written?
edited 2nd Nov '17 11:23:53 AM by AnotherDuck
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The Babel-17 example is borderline. (It says "discussed", but the context is people stuck in programming via Language Equals Thought.)
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No, the other one.
If that's the baseline for a definition expansion, I don't think it's a good idea, unless there's additional context to it. That's just using a paradox to get someone out of a way of thinking from the sounds of it. That's not just allowing non-computers, but also changing what effect it has.
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Hi - it was me who posted the original thread (I'm kind of new and didn't realise how much detail these things needed) so thanks Zuxtron.
"Logic Bomb" seems like a decent name to me because "bomb" evokes the idea that logic is being used as a weapon. I think part of the problem is that "bomb" is getting interpreted by tropers in the "and on that bombshell..." sense of the word, to mean a surprising conclusion, rather than the much more specific meaning it is trying to convey. What else could you call it? "Logic Gun"? "Logic Sword"? (The latter might be confused with Cutting the Knot.)
Berserk Button: misusing Nightmare Fuel
Perhaps we could merge with Puff of Logic and call it Weaponized Paradox.
I don't think Logic Bomb and Puff of Logic are similar enough to merge. The latter seems to be a subtrope of the former where something is removed from existence when the logic bomb hits
- Poster 8: Most examples of the Misuse section in OP would fall under the sapient version which could be made valid via new paragraph offered in 9.
Locking per New Year Purge.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
(There was another thread about this posted not too long ago, but it got closed due to not presenting evidence. Hopefully my attempt has enough evidence to be worth keeping!)
Logic Bomb is a trope about how machines such as computers and robots are destroyed or rendered inoperational when confronted with a logical paradox. However, the page has undergone Trope Decay, and is often used for paradoxes in general.
My attempt at a Wick Check
(This is my first time doing this, so hopefully I did it right. Also, wick checks are really tedious to make. Is there an easier way to do this than manually opening 50 random pages and checking them one by one?)- Lampshade Hanging in Star Control II: the Ilwrath position themselves as supremely evil. If the player confronts them over this ("If your actions are judged by your society as correct, aren't you, in fact, good?"), they tie themselves into a logical knot before deciding to attack the player for being annoying.
According to the characters page, Ilwrath aren't robots.Anti-Magic:
- ...Apple Pie's Element of Laughter can disrupt magic by her invoking paradoxes.
This is referring to logical paradoxes in general, not against robots.Brass Eye:
- Logic Bomb: Chris Morris explains that a heroin overdose "can be fatal in the short term, but there has been no research into the long-term side-effects".
Not a paradox, and not used against robots.Brown Note:
- SF author David Langford invented the Langford fractal basilisk or blit (see here
◊), a fictional type of computer-generated image that acts as a Logic Bomb to the human brain.
Not a paradox, and not used against robots.NightmareFuel.Dungeons And Dragons
- The self-mutilation mentioned above was added as an Artificer feat in 3.5 Eberron, aptly named "Self-forged". As in, a Warforged that forged itself. You keep your original race for a while, but eventually your self-modification will cause your character to become almost entirely Magitek.
From the context, it's pretty hard for a non-DnD player like me to understand what this is referring to, but it's clearly not about destroying machines.Edna & Harvey: Harvey’s New Eyes:
- Logic Bomb: This is how Lilli defeats most of the monsters that infest her Mental World. For instance, Lady Justice tells her that lies are always bad, and commits Seppuku when Lilli proves that lies can be good (allowing Lilli to lie in the real world).
The monsters aren't machines.Webcomic/8BitTheater:
- Logic Bomb: Red Mage uses one to kill a dinosaur. He tries it again while confronting his own Hubris, but it doesn't take for obvious reason.
A dinosaur isn't a machine.Awesome.Emperor Joker
- Superman breaking the Joker's hold on Mr. Mxyzptlk's powers with a Logic Bomb.
The Joker isn't a robot.UnusuallyUninterestingSight.Fan Works:
- ...She's more interested in the (to her) hilarious paradox that it's both alive and dead at the same time, which causes her to invoke her Logic Bomb power for the first time and convince it it should be dead...
This is the same scenario as the one detailed under Anti-Magic. It's not used against a machine.FoxTrot:
- Logic Bomb: In one strip, Paige asks both parents if Nicole can stay over, and each tells her to ask the other, with her concluding that it's okay for Nicole to come over. Jason got the same answers from asking both parents, but instead consulted logic books.
Paige and Jason aren't robots.Freaknik: The Musical:
- Logic Bomb: When the STM arrives in rather bright, sunny, and cheerful New Orleans, Big Uzi states "I thought the Sun never shined in the ghetto..." — and a gun-totin' gangsta moon quickly solves that problem.
Not a paradox, not used against robots.Graph War:
- Logic Bomb: Functions may stop and explode as soon as they're fired if you do something mathematically impossible (such as dividing by zero or trying to find the square root of a negative number).
The game was most likely intentionally programmed to do that.Hanlon's Razor:
- ...However, applying the Rule of Shades of Grey ("No rule is universally valid, including this one")
This is a paradox, but isn't used against robots.Hello, Sailor!:
- ...I mean, isn't just joining the Navy alone gay enough to get you thrown out of the Navy?"
Not used against robots.Hiimdaisy:
- Logic Bomb:
Fortune: I'm Fortune. I wanna die but I can't because bullets won't hit me!
Funny.Heroes Of The Storm:Not a paradox and not used against robots.
——
- Abathur: If evolution is product of design, is evolution... evolution? Hmm. Line of thought not productive.
Abathur isn't a robot.Joueur du Grenier:
- In the 2nd FAQ video, Seb facepalms while JdG is trying to show the audience the camera used to film... with the camera used to film.
Not used against robots.Narm.Music had two examples:
- Their cover of Beyoncé's "If I Were a Boy". Not only because none of the kids singing probably understand the song about a woman mad at her past relationships and stereotyping men, but because Kidz Bop thought it would be brilliant to have boys singing the song! BOYS singing about what would happen if they were boys?!
The Kidz Bop kids (hopefully) aren't robots.- "You're so vain, you probably think this song is about you." The "you" in this line has been mentioned in almost every stanza, almost every line; how could the song not be about "you"?
Not used against robots.My Immortal has two examples:
- Logic Bomb: At one point the main characters "talked to each other in silence," which is practically Zen.
Just poor writing, not used against robots.- Morton's Fork: As mentioned, if you live in Tara Land, you can either try to be goffic, in which case you're a poser and you suck, or not, in which case you're a prep and you suck. Without being a legit goff, Tom Rid won't give you the "real" goffic clothes. But you can't be a "real" goff without them, so you can't get the "real" goffic clothes unless you already have them.
Not used against robots.Nine Lives (2002):
- Logic Bomb: Tom buys Jo an organiser but she's already bought one. She refuses to give it back because it's the only gift he's ever given her and she wants to keep it.
Not a paradox, and not used against robots.Off the Page and into Life:
- Cut His Heart Out with a Spoon:
Gail: (discussing Gossip Girl) I swear, once I find out who she is, I'm gonna strangle her with a brick.
Not a paradox, and not used against robots.Planescape: Torment:
- Logic Bomb: If your charisma is high enough, you can convince Vhailor to finally pass on with one of these. It's also one of the many ways you can defeat the Transcendent One.
Neither of these are robots.Characters.Polandball Others:
- Logic Bomb: Will blow itself up if confused.
◊
The character in question isn't a robot.Principia Discordia:
- Logic Bomb: "A Discordian is Forbidden of Believing what he Reads."
Not used against robots.Roundhay Garden Scene:
- The Tropeless Tale: This may just be the closest possible, although Oskar Fischinger's Allegretto gives it some competition due to having even less content despite a longer run time. Wait, that makes a trope itself.
Not used against robots.The Binding of Isaac:
- Logic Bomb: In Ending 6, Mom's fist flies out of a chest that was spawned by destroying her heart, which was inside her womb, which was inside her corpse in the first place. So Mom was hiding in a chest in her heart in her womb inside her to begin with. Yeah. Figure that out.
Not used against robots.Characters.The Inquest Of Pilot Pirx:
- Logic Bomb: He loses because he relies too much on strict logical calculations but doesn't know a thing about human emotions.
The character in question seems to be an AI, but isn't defeated by a paradox.The Omnipotent:
- ...Every other wish pertaining to him personally is also bound by the ancient prophecy of the three wishes unleashing the Djinn hordes upon the Earth, so he can only grant wishes involving himself that don't undo his ability to grant them.
Not a robot.The '60s:
- ...Therefore, only people who weren't alive in the 60's can remember the 60's.
Not used against robots.Twenty Years Later Bunbunmary Spirit News Archive:
- Logic Bomb: Hatate gives one to Commander Contrarian Seija, who proceeds to faint because of it (she tells her to not stop contradicting her).
The character in question isn't a robot.Walk Hard
- ...The nurse orders that he has more and fewer blankets.
Not used against a robot.Watchmen:
- Logic Bomb: Possible explanation for why Rorschach told Dr. Manhattan to kill him.
Neither of those are robots.- Logic Bomb: Subverted, as ISIC is completely immune to this and attempting to try this just leads to him laughing it off.
ISIC is a robot. I'm not sure whether or not this is really a subversion or rather an aversion, but it is a reference to the correct definition of Logic Bomb.Characters.Combat Devolved:
- Explosive Overclocking: Doesn't occur often with J.A.K.E., mostly because he shrugs off any peculiar thoughts, questions or circumstances rather than trying to analyze or understand, after the result of the one time he did in Episode 6.
Seems correct.Fallout 3:
- Logic Bomb: With a high enough Science skill you can "defeat" him by pointing out his self-confidence in his plan relies on circular logic to prove he knows what's best.
The character being referred to here is an AI, so this seems to be correct.Characters.Markiplier:
- Logic Bomb: How it was damaged.
Google IRL: Shut up! Just shut up! I can't kill you if you keep asking questions!
Matthias: ...Why not?
Google IRL: (Shuts down)
The character in question is an AI, so this seems to be correct.Characters.Mega Man X Villains:
- ...More specifically, they were an attempt to replicate the titular X's ability to handle the personality paradox. The fact that they failed to live up to these principles, even one at a time, causing Zero to have to kill Colonel and then a grieving Iris to combine their power, attack Zero, and also have to be killed may have originally foreshadowed that X would eventually no longer be able to handle the Logic Bomb himself...
This seems to be correct, as X is a robot faced with a paradox.Overclocking Attack:
- In "The Sontaran Stratagem" the Doctor confuses a Sat Nav that wants to kill him with a Logic Bomb and it explodes... in a fairly small-scale and unimpressive way to which the Doctor responds disappointedly "Is that it?"
This seems to be a misuse of Overclocking Attack, but a correct use of Logic Bomb.Characters.Shadowside:
- I Need a Freaking Drink: Reaction to any attempt to describe magic "logically". Ranging from simple confusion to complete meltdown.
The character in question is an android, so this seems correct.Sonic The Comic:
- Logic Bomb: As mentioned above, one strip featured Predicto, a robot that had been programmed with encyclopaedic knowledge of the Freedom Fighters' personalities and battle tactics, allowing it to take on Sonic, Tails, Knuckles, Amy, Johnny and Porker all at once, and win...until Sonic surrendered. Boom.
Seems correct.AntiHero.Western Animation:
- ...Lampshaded in one episode when he's subjected to a machine designed to tell whether one is a hero or villain and it explodes!
Seems correct.- Codename: Kids Next Door: "Op. S.A.F.E.T.Y." ends when a safety robot thinks it had accidentally hurt Numbuh 4's little brother Joey, causing it to short circuit, self-destruct, and the ship they were on to crash. Turns out Joey faked the injury with ketchup. After discovering this, Numbuh believes one of his own injuries is just ketchup. Numbuh 2 says that really is blood, and 4 passes out at the realization.
I'm not sure if a safety robot accidentally harming someone is a paradox.Characters.Alien 1:
- Logic Bomb: Once found out, Ash drops the facade of being human and starts behaving erratically. Some have theorized that the conflicting orders of "Do not kill" and "Bring back lifeform, all other priorities rescinded" proves too much for him.
This seems to be correct, but the "theorized" part seems to indicate that this isn't completely official.YMMV.Calving And Hobbes The Series:
- ...He even gets a bit confused when faced with Jack while under orders to 'kill everyone' (Jack's a robot, and so not alive).
The "He" being referred to is a robot named Shadow, but this doesn't seem to be a paradox, and it's not clear whether or not this stops him from functioning.Did You Just Scam Cthulhu?:
- In Anderson: Psi-Division, Cassandra Anderson manages to make Satan blow himself up by forcing himself into a Douglas Adams-style self-contradiction.
Unless Satan is a robot in this work (the characters page was no help), this is misuse.Dirty Pair:
- Logic Bomb: Kei manages to pull this on the supercomputer B.R.I.A.N. in the first episode of the TV series, by double-dog-daring it to calculate whether she or Yuri is more attractive — distracting it long enough to arrange a Tele-Frag.
This is used against a computer, but I don't think calculating who is more attractive is a paradox.- Kirk Summation - Ironically used by Tim on David to save Kirk. And it works.
This was commented out for being a ZCE. I have no idea what it is.Characters.Minecraft Story Mode:
- Logic Bomb: Jesse employs this tactic against PAMA, but it only buys Jesse time as opposed to defeating the computer outright.
The character in question is an AI, but it's not clear whether or not a paradox was used against it.Thank the Maker: Kryten destroyed his intended replacement by driving it to doubt the existence of Silicon Heaven. Not enough context to determine whether or not this involves a paradox.
34 out of 50 examples are misuse, which seems to indicate that people mostly don't know what this trope means.
Possible solutions I can think of:
edited 27th Oct '17 6:25:02 PM by Zuxtron