Needs Help (new crowner 9/23/16): A Man Is Not A Virgin

This trope has had a lot of problems for a very long time. The basic idea of the trope is the societal expectation that men are never virgins. The problem is that this is a little difficult to trope; it's normally an aggregate trope like The Bechdel Test rather than something that can be applied to every single work. So we end up with aversions. Lots of aversions. Basically every time a male shows up as a virgin, he's listed as an aversion of this trope.

That's not quite wrong, but it's not quite the intent of the trope, either. I think the trope should be reformatted into an Unexpected Virgin trope; whenever a character is expected to have sexual experience, but turns out to not. Probably need to make it in-universe only, but otherwise it will be simple enough. Inversions of the flavor "character is expected to be a virgin but turns out not to be" can also be listed on the page.

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And since I know people are going to ask, here's a wick check:

• On the page: In addition to the image being more along the lines of Sex as a Rite-of-Passage, approximately 90 of the examples are aversions.

1. Above the Influence: Pothole, seems correct.
2. Adventureland: Aversion.
3. AGENCIA: ZCE.
4. All Gays are Promiscuous: Pothole, seems correct.
5. All Men Are Perverts: Aversion.
6. A Man Is Always Eager: Pothole, aversion.
7. Amar en tiempos revueltos: Aversion.
8. American Pie: ZCE, but from seeing the film I know it's an invoked example ("We're men, we're not allowed to be virgins, let's go find girls to have sex.").
9. A Midnight Clear: Invoked.
10. A Night at the Roxbury: Aversion.
11. An Officer and a Gentleman: ZCE.
12. Appeal to Audacity: Aversion, but subverted.
13. Arakawa Under the Bridge: Aversion.
14. Appease the Volcano God: Aversion.
15. A Song of Ice and Fire - House Martell: Aversion.
16. Atlas Shrugged: Correct.
17. Bakemonogatari: Aversion.
18. Band of Brothers: ZCE, it just says "Invoked."
19. Bear Nuts: Aversion.
20. Being Human (UK): Aversion.
21. Ben Jordan: Paranormal Investigator: Aversion.
22. Berserk: Guts: Aversion, but subverted.
23. Bittersweet Candy Bowl: ZCE, it just says "the Double Standard is explored."
24. Bob The Dog: Not really sure. I don't think it's an example at all.
25. Boyfriend Bluff: Aversion, but a weird one.
26. Buffalo '66: Aversion.
27. Burning Love: ZCE.
28. Canvas 2. Correct.
29. Carnival Phantasm: ZCE.
30. Diamond in the Rough (Touhou): ZCE.
31. Elementary: Correct.
32. Epic Rap Battles From Pokejedservo: Aversion.
33. Fan Wank: Misuse, should be A Man Is Always Eager.
34. French Jerk: Aversion.
35. Galavant: Aversion.
36. Glee: ZCE. Just says "Played with."
37. Grease: Aversion.
38. GUN×SWORD: Aversion.
39. Have a Nice Death: Aversion.
40. Hitler Ate Sugar: Pothole, but seems correct.
41. Ice And Fire: Aversion.
42. Imperfect Ritual: Pothole. Doesn't seem relevant.
43. Jerkass Has a Point: Pothole. Seems like an aversion.
44. Just Buried: Implied aversion.
45. Kira☆Kira: Seems to misuse. "This man is not a virgin," with no other context.
46. Lazer Team: Aversion.
47. Let's Wait a While: Pothole, but seems correct.
48. Lonely Together: Aversion.
49. Mad Men: Correct.
50. Mary and Max: Aversion.

So that is 4/50 probably correct, 4/50 correct, 8/50 ZCE, 2/50 invoked, 4/50 misuse, 28/50 aversions.

This got opened up, but nobody noticed. So, bump. Any thoughts?

I literally just finished pointing out in the Genre Savvy cleanup that we aren't here to catalog things that don't happen in a Work. Trope aversions are rarely if ever noteworthy; an aversion is simply the absence of a trope. Literally every trope that doesn't appear in the work is an aversion.

Consequentially, if the only thing the trope is being used for is to list aversions, that means the trope isn't functioning properly. To that end, I agree with the change to Unexpected Virgin.

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Aversions are notable for tropes that are extremely common in certain genres, but this trope is not really tied to any one genre. I'd go with Unexpected Virigin.

If a tree falls in the forest and nobody remembers it, who else will you have ice cream with?

I think that misstates the trope a bit, though it doesn't help that it has a description front-loaded with Word Cruft, analysis and Needless Capital Letters. The proper definition seems to be the second sentence of the fifth paragraph: "This trope is for when a male is portrayed in-universe as weak, lazy, and/or poorly adjusted, with his virginity as an implicit or explicit cause."

edited 29th Mar '16 5:48:29 PM by Prfnoff

Yeah I would support turning this into 'Unexpected Virgin', and make it gender neutral. Certain character types, both male and female, are expected to be experienced, when it is revealed that they are a virgin its usually surprising or they pretend to be experienced at first.

For a female type a Gyaru like the main character of Please Tell Me! Galko-chan is expected to be experienced. Which I quote from that page "the entire class assumes as a Gyaru she has pretty loose morals, she actually have zero experience with men"

edited 29th Mar '16 9:48:11 PM by Memers

This trope is not traditionally gender-neutral at all; it's heavily subject to the Double Standard.

With certain character types that double standard is not present at all, the expectation is there just the same. Also the inverse is true, quite a few male character types are still expected to be virgins it's usually a surprise to find out they are not.

The page right now pretty much lists any guy who claimed to have sex at any time. Including entries for Dragon Ball which just list the married guys in the show who had kids and Gundam Seed where Kira had sex with Flay, clearly forgetting it takes two to tango.

Unexpected Virgin is very clearly a thing that is mostly for males but several female characters and character types as well. They might even brag or lie about their non-existent experience.

Social pressure where virginity is a stigma for guys and an asset for girls is also a thing but this trope clearly is not it.

edited 29th Mar '16 11:34:55 PM by Memers

Well, I think Prfnoff was talking about how the trope wanted to be that, with the quote from the fifth paragraph. That quote is about it being a stigma, not a surprise about the character.

edited 30th Mar '16 12:09:10 AM by Jokubas

If the trope is about the stigma then everything needs to be scrapped, that trope would be more about virgins trying to lose it instead of well what is currently on the page.

Also it should talk the other side too, quote from How I Met Your Mother "Men regret the people they don't sleep with, women regret the ones they do".

Also unexpected virgins are still a thing though.

edited 30th Mar '16 12:23:32 AM by Memers

That's an exaggeration, and you probably know it.

What you're talking about would be Sex as Rite-of-Passage. The type of character I'm thinking of might or might not actually attempt that.

Considering the examples have stuff like

I am not really kidding, and that is just from one section.

Well, I won't dispute that there is a lot of misuse (most of the ridiculous number of "averted" examples seem more like Chaste Hero or Celibate Hero); I just don't think it's quite total. A few of the good examples:

• This is joked about in Fruits Basket, when Tohru's class puts on a performance of Cinderella. Kyo plays the prince and is extremely mopey and uninterested in the ball being held. During the performance, Arisa (who is playing his "best friend") tells him to cheer up and "it's no wonder you're still a virgin". Kyo freaks out at this and yells at her not to say stuff like that.
• Referenced, and somewhat lampshaded, in the first episode of the first series of Skins.
  Tony: It's embarrassing.
  Sid: It's common and quite normal for someone of sixteen—
  Tony: —No. It's embarrassing, Sid.
  Sid: ...Shit.
• Deconstructed in an episode of Family Matters in which Steve reveals Eddie's virginity to an entire men's locker room, inadvertently causing all the guys to make fun of Eddie. Later on in the episode, Eddie stands up to them with a speech about how real men value women as human beings and not as conquests.

While it's true that virgin-shaming frequently happens to male characters over female ones, it does happen to female characters. Take, for example, the character of Sandy from Grease. There's an entire song dedicated to her female friends making fun of her for being a virgin.

Changing the name of the trope to Unexpected Virgin or Virgin Shaming would not only allow it to incorporate characters like Sandy, but would also help to stem the flow of misuse by putting the emphasis on the fact that the trope is about the treatment of the virginity, not the mere question of whether or not it exists. As it stands now, people are seeing "A Man Is Not A Virgin" and going, "Oh, I know of male characters who are or are not virgins, let's put those there."

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Unexpected Virgin and Virgin-Shaming are two different but fully valid tropes though.

The example I brought up before, Galko, is only the former no actually shaming takes place.

Fixing the description to be closer to what Prfnoff wants, I suspect, would clear up a lot of the problem, coupled with clearing out misuse. I doubt we need to do anything more drastic than that.

Virgin-Shaming girls really doesn't belong here. The default for girls is My Girl Is Not a Slut; guys are expected to have lots of sexual experience, but girls are expected to save themselves for marriage. That there are "certain character types" where girls ARE expected to be experienced suggests the need for a trope for those character types.

Culturally, men are more frequently virgin-shamed than women. Problem is, we aren't here to trope Real Life. It happens, but it's not our priority. Leaving valid examples off the list because they don't suit a political agenda isn't kosher.

We don't forbid male examples from being listed under Slut-Shaming on grounds that it happens more often to women. We shouldn't forbid female examples from being listed here under the same logic.

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Yeah I am still thinking there are tropes here. Sure Virgin-Shaming is mostly male but a Rare Female Example is just fine IMO.

Surprise Virgin, and Surprise Not A Virgin I guess, are heavily related but separate tropes that are non-exclusive to Virgin-Shaming. Gender neutral as it depends on the writing and the character in question.

Probably the best course of action. It's not warranted to create a separate "A Woman Is Not a Virgin" trope; it is also sufficiently distinct and worth noting when characters defy the level of sexual experience they're expected to have.

What I'm seeing consensus for is redirecting A Man Is Not A Virgin to Unexpected Virgin, then launching a separate Virgin-Shaming trope. Is that right?

Might want redirect A Man Is Not A Virgin to Virgin Shaming instead.

Should we keep Surprise Virgin and Surprise Not a Virgin in the same page, as they're inversions? "Unexpected Level of Sexpertise" perhaps?

I think it depends on how much the latter comes up. If Surprise Not A Virgin happens frequently, it might merit its own page, but otherwise it would just be an inversion of Surprise Virgin - a trope that's had an awful lot of films dedicated to it.

edited 11th Apr '16 2:33:10 PM by TobiasDrake

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I've been thinking about it and I think Virgin Stigma is a better title than Virgin-Shaming. It's something about the character that serves as a mark of shame, but it's very often than the character who is a virgin is the one who sees it as this black mark when no one else around them really cares.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick

That's still the result of a societal impression that virginity is a mark of inadequacy, and usually part of it is that the person in question is afraid to be shamed by others.

I can agree with Virgin Stigma. Naming it that would avoid a lot of examples starting with, "Inverted Trope, the virgin shames himself," or something.

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