Discussion Main / StylishAction

How is God of War not a Spectacle Fighter series? (well, except for the upcoming Norse one that is)

I don't get how most of the games on the list didn't count. I think the edit should be reverted and discussed before making significant changes. Perhaps by and large the genre is too niche to even have a page to begin with if the criteria really is that specific.

Yeah... that's way too big a change to do without any sort of discussion. I'm going to request a mod revert so we can hash it out and decide what needs to stay and needs to go.

EDIT: Okay, it's been reverted by a mod. I agree some fat could be trimmed, and the definition could be tightened, but that was just the wrong way to go about it.

Christian, I think the issue here is that your Cuhrayzee is not the same as the broader trope of Spectacle Fighter. Going to the CGG wiki (which a cursory googling indicates to me is the main source of the name), its criteria don't overlap perfectly with ours. After all, the trope naming game for Spectacle Fighter isn't even on that wiki.

-Larkmarn:

I don't really think Mad World is the trope naming, this genre has at least 5 different names: Stylish Action, Cuhrayzee, Character Action, Extreme action and Spectacle Fighter. There's probably more names(the discussion below have other names) but in the end they're all the same, I know Yahtzee created the term Spectacle Fighter in his Madworld review, but the idea is way older than this. In fact, Using google I can get results for Stylish Action way before Mad World is even released.

I used CGG as a guideline of sorts, since they are the only ones that explained in depth the ideia, seriously go to any place trying to find an explanation of this genre and most of them don't really explain in depth, they either uses it way too broad or don't even define.

-Metalhead 14:

Yeah, the genre is niche, and that's kinda is the whole point of this genre, it's basically to refer games that have a focus in the combat and have considerable depth

Frankly If this page will be wrong as it is, i'd rather see this page deleted

-Kytseo:

God of War do have some sense of style, but the combat isn't as deep as the combat in the games I listed

I think most of the examples on the page are just games that qualify to an extent and/or have elements of efficient combat. A list of full-fledged examples would prove to be very small.

But that is the whole point of this genre, it IS a small list, if we allow games with "efficient combat", then that's basically most of Hack n Slash, Beat em Ups and a shitton of Actions games

It's like if we made a page about Souls-like games and 80% of the game list is about games that are just in a medieval setting and have not in common with the Souls games, and only 7 exemples have things in common with Souls like the atmosphere and the "animation based" combat

Edit: I looked at the history of this page, and in the beginning it was fine, for some reason people started adding games like there's no tomorrow, wtf, are people really confusing Hack n Slash/Beat em Up that don't suck with Stylish Action? The fuck

I guess I should agree with Christian WS here. There is a big divide between games like Devil May Cry, that rely almost purely on its combat system, and the Batman Arkham series, which mix Wide-Open Sandbox elements into a Beat 'Em Up, for example.

However, I'm quite mixed at God of War being a Spetacle Fighter/Stylish Action/Cuhrayzee game or not, due to this game also being highly focused on combat (Not like the DMC franchise, but in its own way). My vision on a Spetacle Fighter lies in Hack N' Slash games like DMC, God of War, Castlevania: Lords of Shadow, games that rely heavily in combat and speed.

I agree some of the examples on this page are balls-out stupid (like the Arkham games, or freaking Dragons Crown which is just Golden Axe with tits and RPG elements). But I still think you're being too restrictive based on our definition for an incredibly vaguely defined genre.

We can discuss examples here, but if you want to change the definition, take it to Trope Repair Shop.

Like I said, this genre has at least 5 names, and it is somewhat well defined on the Cuhrayzee Games General Wiki (which is why I refer to them so much). While I understand that it may seems a bit restrictive, I don't think we gain anything by being so loose about it, it only means it can be misinterpreted and games that have nothing in common can be placed under this category even if they don't really fit. Like I said, it's like we had a page about Souls-like, and most of the exemples are loose and we just put them there because they share the superficial similarity to the Souls, rather than what really defines the Souls games

Something is defined by that wiki. And since that wiki very noticeably does not include Mad World, the inspiration for the name of this trope, I maintain that the definition on that site is irrelevant to the definition on this site.

However you are forgetting that this trope exists way before Mad World was released. I maintain that Mad World being the inspiration for the name of this trope is irrelevant, specially considering that this trope has a bunch of others names

Using the most scientific method, Google, I found that "Spectacle Fighter" only gives 15,100 results, while "Stylish Action" has way more, with 123,000 results, and like I said, I can find results for Stylish Action describing Devil May Cry, Ninja Gaiden and even Bayonetta (well, it was anounced very early) way before Mad World was released

Okay, I'll try to explain.

This trope might be a different trope than what you're describing. In order to fit the "cuhrazey" trope, we'd need to change the definition, the name, and match a website that does not consider the trope namer of this to count as it.

So do you understand my point at least a little bit?

I don't think they're different tropes, since both the trope description (while way more vague) and the Cuhrayzee Wiki description (way more restricted) do share a lot in common

-Techinical and Deep combat

-Challenge the player

-has a sense of style

The last 3 ones in the trope description are optional (Usually, Often, Many). The only thing really different in the page and the Wiki is that this page mentions the protagonist being a Badass, and the Cuhrayzee Wiki mentions the need of Enemy variety. For me it's the same thing.

I think I wasn't clear but I was using the Cuhrayzee Wiki as the source since they're the only ones that I know that explain in detail the concept.

I do agree and understand that it would require a lot of changes, but I think its for the better. The TV Tropes description is way loosely than it should be, the name choosen is more recent and less known than others names given to the same trope. Yahtzee (Zero Punctation) is the guy who created the "Spectacle Fighter" name in his Mad World review, but like I said, it is irrelevant who or what the trope name is, it is a fact that the trope existed before the Review, and it was used under the name "Stylish Action" to refer to games like Devil May Cry, Ninja Gaiden and Bayonetta, which are 3 games that both the Wiki and this page seems to fit in the trope.

Since my english is trash, I don't know if I'm being clear enough: I think the description should be more close to the one used in the Cuhrayze Wiki(not a copy, but more close so that we don't have missuses at least in the beginning), but the trope name should be changed to "Stylish Action", not to Cuhrayzee Game. I know we could just redirect, but it seems the name itself is also part of the problem, it seems that people think that every game that has some sort of fight and also is cool to look is part of the trope (this is basically the only explanation that I found to why Kirby and Batman are part of Spectacle Fighter )

I was thinking here, wouldn't it be better (and easier, because this discussion will get nowhere) to just create the Stylish Action trope page instead of modifying the Spetacle Fighter page? Also, it's better to call it Stylish Action, and use Cuhrayzee as just an alternative name. Just my two cents on it.

Not a bad idea, actually.

If we create the "Stylish Action" Trope, then what? We would still have this page (with what I consider to be wrong information, but that is besides the point) and both of the tropes would be similar in nature to the point where someone will eventually argue why those tropes aren't merged.

Like, we make the Stylish Action Trope, and somehow it's perfect, everyone understand it, the exemples are few and well explained, at this point, what would be the purpose of the "Spectacle Fighter"? Like, what would be the difference to justify the existence of both tropes? Well, besides a nitpicker constantly yelling that one of those is either too strict or too loose

My main beef is just seeing DMC, Ninja Gaiden in the same category as Batman, God of War and even Kirby (wut).

I also must object at categorizing Platinum Games studio on their page as "studio that mainly specializes at spectacle fighters" while they themselves call the (sub-) genre — simply "action game". Including the person who created it, Kamiya.

I made a list about the games that I think we should remove, so we could discuss it better, I separeted it by why I think they should be removed:

• PlatinumGames's that I don't feel they should belong in this list:
  • MadWorld: this is debatable, and I ok with letting this slide in the list
  • Scalebound: there is a interview released sometime after the last year E3 in which Hideki Kamiya himself said this game wouldn't be a "character action-game" like Bayonetta, which is to say that scalebound will not be a Stylish Action, this is word of god of a game that is not released
  • Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles: Mutants in Manhattan: I haven't played it, but every single reviewer that I trust already said that the combat in this game is functional but is nowhere near the depth of other Platinum games, not even Korra.

• "I don't even know why they're in this list" tier:
  • Asura's Wrath
  • Batman Arkham Series
  • Half of the Castlevanias: Castlevania: Lament of Innocence and Castlevania: Curse of Darkness
  • Dark Forces Saga
  • Demonsteele
  • Dust: An Elysian Tail: the combat of this game is simple even on the highest difficult
  • Kirby: really?
  • Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning: Its flashy, but the combat itself is not "deep"

• Games inspired by God of War:
  • Darksiders series: I feel they're way more close to being Zelda-like and the combat of these games is more close to God of War than DMC.
  • Dante's Inferno
  • God of War Series: well, durr
  • Heavenly Sword
  • The other half of the Castlevania games: Castlevania: Lords of Shadow and Castlevania: Lords of Shadow 2

• Suda51 Games:
  • Killer is Dead
  • Lollipop Chainsaw
  • No More Heroes

• Games that I haven't played and they're only placed as Stylish Action in this trope and no other place:
  • Vanillaware's games: Although from the footage of leifthrasir, it seems like it is almost a Spectacle Fighter, the rest of vanillaware's games don't seems to be this close.
  • Bujingai
  • Chaos Legion
  • Dynasty Warriors: I feel the Musou games should have it's own trope or something, musou are like "parallel" to Stylish Action games, they're in some ways a especialization of Hack n Slash/Beat em Up
  • Gungrave
  • Hyperdimension Neptunia U: Action Unleashed
  • Implosion
  • Middle-earth: Shadow of Mordor
  • Naruto Ultimate Ninja
  • Ninja Blade
  • Ninja Gaiden 3/Razor Edge and Yaiba: Ninja Gaiden Z: Everyone on the internet seems to agree that NG 3 is a backsteep from the series, and even though Razor's Edge tryed to fix it, it is still not enough, and Yaiba seems to have a shallow combat in comparison to the rest of the series
  • Otogi: Myth of Demons
  • Resident Evil 6
  • RWBY: Grimm Eclipse
  • Splatterhouse (Remake)
  • Senran Kagura
  • Stories: Path of Destinies
  • Star Wars: The Force Unleashed I & II
  • Tales Series: I've only played Vesperia and while the game is fun and do have a decent combat, the RPG part basically destroys whatever depth the combat may have, even on the highest difficult its not hard to "cheese" your way using the basics skill

I would also recommend to place Devil May Cry as the Trope Creator, and the Ur Exemple being Rising Zan: The Samurai Gunman alongside with Arcade games in general, since Kamiya said the "stylish/spectacle" aspect of DMC was inspired by arcades in general

I don't even understand how in the fucking Earth Resident Evil 6 would be a Spetacle Fighter. It is a Third-Person Shooter, but a Spetacle Fighter? Seriously? What kind of crack was the person who put this at the trope page on?

Not sure at all. Even the video the person who posted RE 6 linked doesn't prove anything.

For Metalhead 14 and other people who don't get why Go W (and the games that are inspired by it) don't count, well that's simple:

God of War doesn't have a deep combat as the others, heck even the creator admitted it:

https://www.vg247.com/2013/05/27/god-of-wars-spectacle-distracts-from-shallow-mechanics-says-jaffe/

A good Stylish Action/Cuhrayzee/Spectacle/Extreme-Action/Whatever gives the player a good amount of depth in its combat, while depth is somewhat a complex thing to describe, I will quote someone that described it in a simple way:

"Depth is the maximum range of possible non-redundant game states that are relevant to a (high level) player.It's about combinations, exponentiation. You can make a game with 50 options that don't combine, and have 50 different possibilities, or you can make a game with 10 options, and have them combine with themselves and have 100 different possibilities.Adding a lot of attacks doesn't make the system deep, they need to be differentiated from one another and recombine. You can get a lot more possibilities through recombining existing options than through just trying to make each individual possibility manually."

There's this video about some of the technical stuff of Legend of Korra (which is one of the weaker games made by Platinum) so that you guys can have at least a starting point:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KIZWM5v89-U

I know this is a dick move, but I edited my original comment since I re-read it and it was shit, its no surprise since I originally wrote it before going to bed.

I'm thinking about taking this trope to the Trope Repair Shop since this discussion is kinda of dead and we didn't reach an agreement even though it seems we all agree that the trope have a lot of problems. But I don't have enough experience to know how to do this in a good way, I was thinking about copying everything I said and rewrite it in a more cohesive way

Take it to Trope Repair Shop, then? I doubt anyone will agree.

I agree

I'd agree with Azek as well. Wasn't the trope itself also made to separate Devil May Cry's action style from God of War's action style as well?