Removing complaining in Star Wars subpages

I don't know about anyone else, but I'd say feel free to delete. It feels a little too knee-jerky anyway, since the finale only just came out.

Yeah, So Okay, It's Average has a one-month waiting period, as seen on the No Recent Examples, Please! page.

Edited by chasemaddigan on Aug 15th 2021 at 8:30:32 AM

Since Never Live It Down entries for the sequels were previously discussed, here are my thoughts on the entries for the prequels on the franchise page:

• Whether one believes it or not, the existence of the Trade Federation's Neimoidian race gets a lot of heat thrown in its direction for being racial stereotypes towards Asians, for being poorly motivated in general, and for generally seeming underdeveloped as antagonists for the Clone Wars. It says "Whether one believes it or not" but doesn't really explain why there would be differing opinions.

The Phantom Menace

• Jar Jar is featured prominently in only one theatrical film, yet everybody obsesses about him ruining the franchise. He's not even as prominent as many believe him to be and most of the anger is directed at him as a successor of the Ewoks (who had become unpopular in the interim), and for being the first fully CGI character rendered for the big screen, which also angered those who preferred the analog puppetry of the original. As such Jar-Jar Binks, and actor Ahmed Best, is never given the status of pioneering mo-cap and CGI accorded to Gollum and Andy Serkis, even if he came first. This seems fine.

Attack of the Clones

• Anakin hates sand and loves Padmé because she's not sand. He only says that once, but that's used to mock how poorly executed the romance was. Some fans also ridiculed Anakin's Skewed Priorities mentality near the climax when he intended to save Padmé instead of chasing Count Dooku after she fell to the Geonosis desert... which makes her being covered with sand. It's even gotten to the point where fans brought cans of sand for Hayden Christensen to sign during his guest appearance in SWCO 2017. The first two sentences are fine, but the rest can be cut.
• Obi-Wan is usually labeled as a Hypocrite in this film due to the scene where he decides to jump out of a high-story window to grab hold of a flying robot, yet he will go about criticizing Anakin for pulling similar life-threatening stunts. Doesn't explain why it's an unfair exaggeration.

Revenge of the Sith

• Due to Hayden's terrible acting for Anakin and his rather whiny delivery (see a pattern here?) upon learning that he will be on the Jedi Council but he isn't granted the rank of Master, some fans believe that this is the main (if not only) reason for him betraying the Jedi and dooming the entire galaxy for decades as if he was the pettiest example of Psychopathic Manchild. Even without watching The Clone Wars where it's very clear that Anakin already had plenty other reasons to distrust the Jedi, this theatrical film makes it pretty clear that it's a case of Love Makes You Evil. But due to Padmé's unfavourable Badass Decay and Chickification, fans tend to forget this (and sometimes even forget she exists in this theatrical film at all) and believe that Anakin betrayed the Jedi and doomed the galaxy because he isn't granted the rank of Master. Hell, there's a reason why "Anakin's not becoming a Master" has become a meme on its own which usually involves someone poking fun at Anakin for not being a Jedi Master. This gets to the point that fans also jokingly state that Luke has achieved one thing his father cannot: Becoming a Jedi Master. Can probably cut some of the complaining
• Darth Vader will forever be known as that guy who screamed "NOOOOOOOOO!" It's even the trope image. Doesn't explain why it's an unfair exaggeration.
• The end of the Obi-Wan vs. Anakin duel gets jacked on a lot for it coming down to the "high ground" moment. Doesn't explain why it's an unfair exaggeration.
• Fans have not let it slide when it comes to the questionable portrayal of General Grievous in this film compared to the version from the non-canon Clone Wars micro-series. It seems no one can mention him without someone bringing up his "less than dignified" ending when Obi-Wan shoots him a couple times with a blaster and bursting into flames. He's also more remembered for the amount of times he tries to run away rather than him doing anything awesome, to say nothing of spending half his screen time coughing like he's about to hack up his equivalent of a lung. Doesn't explain why it's an unfair exaggeration.
• Master Ki-Adi Mundi is mostly remembered for asking about the droid attack on the Wookiees. Doesn't explain why it's an unfair exaggeration.
• Padmé died of sadness. After spending two theatrical and a canonical Interquel-type installment surviving many assassination attempts all over the place, she died of sadness without even trying to survive to take care of her newborn babies. You can imagine Nute Gunray laughing from beyond the grave if he knew that his hated enemy died of sadness. Even after the non-canon EU explained that her throat is crushed by Vader's Force-Choke, fans will never forget that this theatrical film wanted them to believe that Padmé died of sadness. Doesn't explain why it's an unfair exaggeration.
• Palpatine only declared himself "the Senate" exactly once, yet he will always be remembered with the Fan Nickname "The Senate". This can probably stay.
• Anakin/Darth Vader is known quite well for the fact that he lost 3 of his limbs (his left arm and both legs) during his duel with Obi-wan. As a result, if people in other films and such end up losing a limb or two, they will almost always get compared to Anakin. Doesn't explain why it's an unfair exaggeration.

Edited by costanton11 on Aug 24th 2021 at 9:14:44 AM

Just to clarify after Anakin's sand rant, he does not say "not like you" referring to Padme, he says "not like here" referring to Naboo".

I don't think Jar Jar's example counts; it's supposed to be about a moment.

So basically, only the “I am the senate” and maybe the sand ones are valid.

Why was the stuff about the Holdo maneuver put back onto the Voodoo Shark page?

Back to the Never Live It Down page, there are two more sequel trilogy entries left undiscussed:

• Captain Phasma has had it rough so far as the new Boba Fett of the sequel franchise due to lack of screen-time, and doing almost nothing of note that would be deemed badass. She was already having trouble living down her failure to live up to the pre-release The Force Awakens hype that was generated for the character where the result is her easily getting captured by Finn, Han and Chewie to force her to turn off the shields for Starkiller Base. Then Last Jedi comes around, and she's only around for one sequence where she puts up a fight against Finn, but ends up getting ousted by a sneak attack at the last second that causes her to fall into an abyss of ship explosions. At the very least, fans that follow the Expanded Universe may see her as Rescued from the Scrappy Heap after reading the Phasma novel, as it turns out she doesn't care about the First Order, she just wants to survive and doesn't care who she has to walk all over to achieve her goals. Doesn't really explain why it's an unfair exaggeration.

The Rise of Skywalker

• After cheating death in Return of the Jedi and displaying a powerful Force Lightning storm upon his rejuvenation, Emperor Palpatine is immediately killed off when Rey deflects his Force Lightning back at him with two lightsabers. While it's implied that Rey is given strength from all the Jedi spirits to defeat the Sith Lord, the film makes it seem that the Rey only prevailed by calling upon a second lightsaber to push back the Force Lightning. Consequently, Palpatine is often portrayed by fans as someone who is easily defeated by anyone wielding more than one lightsaber, even if they have no Force powers like General Grievous. Could use some work.

Edited by costanton11 on Aug 28th 2021 at 9:27:46 AM

I agree with Link Mario Samus. The Holdo Manuvere needs more analysis

Any additional thoughts on the Never Live It Down entries?

Edited by costanton11 on Aug 29th 2021 at 11:57:58 AM

Does The Last Jedi qualify for Idiot Plot? It was added shortly after release but since been removed along with Revenge of the Sith. Rot S has since been re-added but not TLJ

People once again added negative misuse of Fan Nickname to Trivia.The Last Jedi including examples similar to the ones listed in this post. I removed them but should anything else be done?

Edited by costanton11 on Oct 18th 2021 at 5:56:02 AM

FWIW, it appears to have been taken down from IdiotPlot.Star Wars and kept down after that page got locked, but a different version has been on YMMV.The Last Jedi since mid-2018 with some wording tweaking but otherwise no apparent drama.

For the Palpatine one, I think it's a fair example considering how many times I've seen the joke of how the Jedi could have defeated Sheev if they brought an extra lightsaber. It could use a rewrite since I have been wanting to do a grammar check before the page went into lockdown.

Also, since the tie-in media have repeatedly insisted that Palpatine's son is actually his clone rather than a legit son, I think there should be an entry of fans believing that Palpatine actually had sex with someone when he was a hideous man. It's not really complaining as much as it is a hilarious (and disturbing) scenario that many fans actually wish it was the case, and was disappointed that the novel went with the cloning aspect instead.

I don't think the suggested example would count since it's not about character actions.

On a related note, here are the Never Live It Down entries for the original trilogy:

• The Stormtroopers. Only four humans, one Wookiee, and two droids are shown to survive more than one firefight with the Stormtroopers, yet the fandom continuously depicts them as unable to hit the broad side of the Death Star. Return of the Jedi is the most responsible for this happening due to portraying the Imperial Stormtroopers as incompetent as possible when they faced off against the Ewoks. Seems valid
• The Original Trilogy as a whole is subject to many incest jokes due to how the Luke and Leia relationship played out over the course of the three theatrical films. Mostly due to the fact that the writers didn't know that Luke and Leia were supposed to be brother and sister by the time of the third theatrical film Return of the Jedi.
  • At first, Luke's "attraction" to Leia is confined mostly to A New Hope, and Splinter of the Mind's Eye in the Expanded Universe. It never goes anywhere, but in the eye of popular culture he will always be the butt of jokes related to incest. It's not helped by the fact that, in the theatrical film as shot, they aren't supposed to be related. Unsure
  • Leia kissed Luke precisely twice, once on the cheek for luck and once on the lips specifically to make a point to Han. There is nothing particularly sexual between them, but some people seem to genuinely believe they were screwing like incestuous bunnies before Return of the Jedi. Wishful thinking? Squick! The other thing that people conveniently forget is that neither Luke nor Leia learned they were brother and sister until this theatrical film. Although, it's not helped by Leia telling Han in Return of the Jedi that "somehow, [she] always knew" that Luke was her brother via the Force. Maybe?
• Parodies of Star Wars, and even some EU material, often depict Darth Vader as strangling his subordinates at the drop of a hat, often for extremely trivial reasons. In the movies, he only ever executes two officers like this, and while it's still pretty Disproportionate Retribution, the people he strangled actually did fail him in pretty big ways (and in one case, it's implied that Admiral Ozzel made a habit off making such mistakes and generally not following orders right). Seems valid

A New Hope

• While Darth Vader has done a lot of awful things, he had only a peripheral role at most in the destruction of Alderaan; that was all on Tarkin. Seems more like Common Knowledge
• Because Luke didn't immediately jump at the call and had a particularly whiny delivery of "But I was going into Tosche Station to pick up some power converters!", he sometimes gets characterized by fans as being forever whiny. Those fans miss out on the awesome development Luke undergoes all through the original trilogy. Valid
• Post-editing, people went from thinking of Greedo as simply a random bounty hunter that Han got the drop on to a Butt-Monkey to so incompetent that he couldn't hit someone literally just across the table from him. Even a card game gave him the special ability to attack first, where he dies instantly if it fails - his card is the only one in the game that can kill itself like that. Doesn't explain why it's an unfair exaggeration
• Chewbacca never receiving a medal is a sore spot for many of his fans who feel that he was just as important as Han when it came to helping the Rebels with the destruction of the Death Star. Doesn't explain why it's an unfair exaggeration

The Empire Strikes Back

• Lando is perpetually known for betraying Han and the others in Cloud City despite the fact that he did so to protect the city from the Empire, orchestrated their escape from the city when the Empire "altered" the deal, hid in Jabba's palace undercover to rescue a frozen Han, and piloted the Millennium Falcon into the reconstructed Death Star at the Battle of Endor. Lampshaded on an episode of Robot Chicken, where Billy Dee Williams is approached about the subject and quickly gets into a shouting match explaining Lando's actions and that his character didn't end at "betrayed Han", even coming up to say more in The Stinger. Various sources claim that Billy Dee Williams really will defend Lando's actions at length, in the very same way that he does in the sketch. Spaced referenced this as well with the phrase "You Lando!" being Tim's euphemism for traitor. Valid
• Lando has never lived down the incident with the Millennium Falcon's hyperdrive, either, simply because he was under the impression that his mechanics would fix it rather than the Imperials sabotaging it further. Every further appearance of Lando in the old Expanded Universe showed that nothing he attempted to pilot would work as intended, with "It's not my fault!" turning from an Ironic Echo into Lando's catchphrase. Somehow, Han doesn't get any flak for the fact that the Falcon was acting up like this for the entire movie. Valid

Return of the Jedi

• Many modern days fans commonly agree and go about criticizing that the Ewoks defeated the more technologically advanced Empire with just sticks and stones. Despite many other persons and events at work, fans and viewers make it sound as if the Ewoks single-handedly handed the Empire their ass. In addition, they tend to ignore that some Ewoks had rather graphic death scenes courtesy of AT-ST. Maybe?
  • In fact a common complaint back when the movie was released was that more time was spent focusing on Ewok death scenes than the Emperor's defeat or the Death Star's destruction. People tend to forget that the Ewoks spend the first half of that battle being massacred, and they don't turn it around until Chewbacca commandeers an AT-ST and starts evening up the odds. Possibly valid
• Boba Fett, for all his badassery and awesome attire, will never live down a blind Han accidentally defeating him with a stick. Maybe
• Don't forget about Admiral Ackbar, who can detect TRAPS!. It's made worse by the fact that people tend to forget that Lando was the one who figured out it was a trap and Ackbar just labeled it so. Maybe

Any additional thoughts?

Edited by costanton11 on Oct 22nd 2021 at 5:10:38 AM

I think it should be noted that Greedo is a character that Lucas took an amusingly approach since the 1997 Special Edition. In a deleted scene in The Phantom Menace, Greedo is the child that Anakin beats up, and one Rodian mentions that Greedo will die horribly if he keeps bullying people. Then Clone Wars shows Greedo as an incompetent bounty hunter who gets owned by a character playing George Lucas. Then there's the trading cards and subtle nods to the whole Han Shot First debate, all of which depicts Greedo to be very terrible at aiming.

Not sure if it is Never Live It Down, but it is clear that Greedo's characterization has mostly been based around that one edit in the newer editions of Star Wars. Otherwise, he's just some random bounty hunter that got killed by Han.

Edited by Shadao on Nov 5th 2021 at 9:48:34 AM

I’m unsure if it that’s more a reflection of the character’s In-Universe actions or the behind the scenes actions.

Any thoughts on the other entries in the post?

I wanted to bring up this example from the What an Idiot! page:

Edited by jaydude on Nov 13th 2023 at 8:23:15 AM

Found this on Jigsaw Puzzle Plot:

• The Star Wars sequels are infamous for their halfhearted attempt at this. The Force Awakens, directed by J. J. Abrams, introduces several questions about why Rey is so strong with The Force, who her parents are, and the origins of Supreme Leader Snoke. However, its sequel, The Last Jedi, famously undermined all of these questions.

Yeah uh cut that.

That seriously clashes with what we see. When your being hunted by a force of billions. Putting a couple of dozen people at most people in once place at most is a terrible idea.

Also the empire at this point was ag it's strongest and already controlled everything.

Edited by miraculous on Dec 5th 2021 at 2:33:09 AM

That at the very least needs the complaining cleaned up.

Another example from What an Idiot!:

We never actually see how strong or otherwise Amidala and Palpatine's case is, because Lott cut them off before they could present it. And given that Valorum's two aides - who according to Palpatine were on the Trade Federation's take - were able to persuade him to go with Lott's recommendation rather than let Amidala even continue speaking, it's unlikely that he would have been willing/able to help them, witnesses and evidence be damned. I feel like, if anything, one of the points of the Senate scene was to have Amidala see firsthand that couldn't have helped her due to the corruption there, and how much of an ineffectual leader Valorum was.

Also, if the point the example's trying to make is that Amidala getting Palpatine elected was an idiotic decision, I don't recall her seeing any signs that he was unscrupulous - let alone a Sith Lord - prior to this moment. There's no reason for her to see him as anything besides a dutiful representative who wants to help her people, but is hamstrung by bureaucratic procedure.

Edited by jaydude on Jan 24th 2022 at 3:31:57 PM

There's also the fact that Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan's involvement was secret from the Senate.

Edited by costanton11 on Jan 24th 2022 at 5:52:08 AM

I suspect there's too much of a bias against the sequel trilogy with the Ass Pull page.

As of this writing:

• There are no entries for any of the prequels
• There's a measly two entries for the OT movies
• Both of those two entries basically end with "this works because blah blah blah". Meanwhile...
• There are several entries for the sequel movies that downplay or ignore possible justifications for anything there.

Though if there's anything specific, this one gets to me for some reason

The film vaguely implies her self-taught experience with her staff might have helped to translate her skills to lightsaber fighting, but the little resemblance between a metal staff and a single-bladed lightsaber undermines this explanation

I could've sworn the first bit was brought up somewhere else on this site, but less...negatively.

Honestly, remove all of them. I can’t tell which ones are legit or not because there is way too much complaining. We can sort out the examples here.

If someone protests, direct them here. If they add the entries back, direct them here. Cutlist the page while you’re at it. I probably should take Ass Pull to the TRS soon.

Edited by SatoshiBakura on Feb 3rd 2022 at 11:08:30 AM