I've decided to start a cleanup thread for Narm, since it seems to attract a lot of misuse and complaining. Like I said in my ATT post
, "some misuse is easy to catch (e.g. saying a joke is Narm when Narm by definition can't be a joke), a lot of examples fall into grey areas that seem like misuse but it's hard to tell. Like nitpicks that at first glance seem to be valid examples, but feel like stretches the more you think about them."
I think one of the main reasons for misuse is that most people aren't clear on what Narm actually is. To my understanding, it's when a scene is intended to be dramatic, but comes off as cheesy/funny unintentionally. But going by the page description, it's kind of vague what actually qualifies something as Narm. At the top, it says "Narm is a moment that is supposed to be serious, but due to either over-sappiness, poor execution, excessive Melodrama, or the sheer absurdity of the situation, the drama is lost to the point of surpassing "cheesy" and becoming unintentionally funny." But then later on in the same page, it gives a much more vague definition:
In CGI movies or video games unrealistic movements or facial expressions may result in Narm. Dated special effects during dramatic scenes can cause Narm for younger audience members who were raised on nothing less convincing than the Phantom Menace. Totally Radical dialog in cartoons or commercials pandering to children can also be a rich source of Narm. Even a good performance in a bad movie can evoke Narm if the actor's performance isn't enough to save the scene.
That last sentence I feel just confuses the whole thing. It makes it sound like absolutely anything can count as Narm, no matter if it works in context or not.
Most often, Narm is misused to mean "anything I personally don't think worked," whether or not it was intended as dramatic or comes off as funny. And when a work is high-profile enough, hoo boy, pretty much every scene is Narm to somebody. You can look at the Narm subpages for Doctor Who, Star Wars, and Game of Thrones and find tons of examples of people nitpicking the tiniest of details in a scene and blowing whatever it is out of proportion.
Another problem is that since it's such a subjective trope, it's not clear if there's supposed to be any sort of in-fandom consensus on the example in-question, or if every example is valid under the "it's called YMMV for a reason" excuse, even if the only person who thinks the example is Narm is the troper who adds it in.
I think it needs to be clearer whether nitpicks are valid examples of Narm, especially since nitpicking overlaps so often with barely-disguised complaining. The most frequent offenders for Narm entries I see are complaining, nitpicking, adding jokes, and ZeroContextExamples. I'm going to use Venom (2018) as an example, with my comments in bold:
- The scene of Eddie freaking out on the medical table is presented as the teaser's Money-Making Shot. It... doesn't quite work as intended, which isn't helped by it being sped up, making it look like a parody.
- The final trailer features a more complete version of the clip showing Venom's face "shutter" over Eddie. Whether or not this works or if it looks like a cheap special effect depends on who you ask.
- What makes the freakout even more narmful is that Eddie's screams are different screams playing on top of each other. The actual film lacks this strange effect. This example seems fine to me, but falls into the "The trailer is Narmy but the finished product isn't" doublespeak.
- The leaked trailer revealed some pretty terrible lines (“The guy you work for is an evil person.”). Tom Hardy's horrible New York...ish(?) accent isn't doing the delivery any favors either. And it really does not help that his voice cracks on the reading of "evil person". Thankfully, that line is not in the film proper. Do we keep examples that are purely in the trailers? Also an example of "thing falls flat" instead of "thing is funny."
- Hardy's line reading of "You're not real, you are just in my head." sounds like he's suffering from Elmuh Fudd Syndwome. At worst, he sounds like Adam Sandler's signature Manchild babbling. However there's some speculation that, based on the context of the scene and Eddie's stumbling movements, he's actually drunk, or perhaps even overdosed on medication (considering he was seen taking a bunch of pills, thinking he's sick). That and it could be a case of Reality Ensues, as it's unlikely anyone would keep the mental clarity to speak normally as an alien parasite is slowly bonding with their body. Natter. Goes back and forth between snarky complaints and defending the moment. Also nitpicking.
- Movie trailers cutting quotes out of context to form a new sentence is nothing new, but the editing on the line "you will only hurt bad people" is particularly poor, and it's very easy to hear that the line has been cut together out of separate pieces of dialogue. Not really a dramatic thing, so I don't think it counts as Narm. And it definitely isn't funny, it just falls flat.
- How Jenny Slate's character pronounces "symbiote" note . Plus, her giving firm, equal stress to all three syllables like she's speaking some foreign language. Luckily, this was cut from the theatrical release. Nitpicking and not funny.
- The shot of Eddie crashing straight through a half-fallen tree in the forest that he could just as easily have ducked under comes across as more comedic than cool, as if they just needed an additional gratuitous shot of something breaking. Especially if your mind goes to Victor from Wet Hot American Summer and his inexplicable refusal to jump over anything. It really does not help that the evil bad-guy vehicle chasing him looks like a slightly modified golf cart. The context for this one in the movie is that Venom is taking control of his body and forcing him to blindly flee through the woods to escape the Life Foundation. Context makes it not-Narm. Cut?
- Although it may look better in the context of the full scene, Eddie flying 50 feet into the air on his motorcycle off a slightly steep hill seems to rather severely break the laws of physics. Clearly written before the movie came out. Cut?
- The Jump Scare (on both sides of the fourth wall) where Venom suddenly shouts Eddie's name as he brushed his teeth would have been much more scary if not for the fact that the latter Screams Like a Little Girl. There's also the fact that he somehow throws himself backwards so hard that he crashes into the bathroom wall. Intended as comedic, so it isn't Narm.
- Remember how creepy and awesome that shot from the second trailer of the symbiote forming around Eddie's face in order to eat a guy was? In the third trailer, the potential Nightmare Fuel of that moment is significantly undercut by Venom slobbering all over the man's face with its tongue in an amusingly over-the-top manner. One is reminded of the scene with Patrick licking the yellow popsicle, or perhaps "This is the taste of a liar".... This seems pretty in-character for Venom. I'm not sure with this one.
- The guy who Carlton Drake subjects to Orifice Invasion in the third trailer would have been disturbing, if not for the victim's bland expression. Moment that falls flat; not funny. Cut.
- The symbiote's Venom-face forming on the end of Eddie's arm to talk to him strongly resembles a deranged hand puppet rather than a vicious alien parasite. There's also the fact that they can communicate telepathically, making that sequence unnecessary. Seems fine.
- Venom's violent threats to his enemies are this if they're not aggressively tasteless Black Comedy. His threat to mutilate a man until he's "like a turd on the wind" is particularly groan-inducing, especially coming after a genuinely frightening threat. How It Should Have Ended was even driven by this to make a video on just the trailer for the very first time, in which he mangles a bunch of other sayings. Pretty sure they are intended as comedy, so it's not Narm. Cut.
- The animation of the yellow symbiote just looks like mozzarella cheese come to life. Nitpick. Also... inaccurate? It's more of a mucus yellow.
- After Venom heals Eddie's broken legs, he flatly states "My legs! They were broken... and now they're not broken..."
- "My leg!" Seems fine to me.
- "HOSPITAL!!!! (extremely long pause) Now!" Zero-Context Example.
- Eddie and Anne quite casually discussing cannibalism as one of the symbiote's favorite activities. It's something that would probably sincerely shock and disgust the average person and likely require therapy, and yet it's bandied about like it's a pretty normal occurrence. These kinds of entries are tricky to me. They seem valid at first glance, but there's something off about them. I don't think this one counts if the work itself is treating the moment lightly.
- Any menace from Cletus Kasady is completely undercut by Woody Harrelson's truly ridiculous wig. A common comparison is that it causes him to look like a live-action Sideshow Bob, or a make-up-less Pennywise. Uses complainy word-choice. Otherwise fine.
- Kasady promising that there will be "carnage" after he gets out is so on-the-nose that it feels like it's straight out of a parody. First off, that's not an example of Anvilicious. Secondly, this verges on a nitpick to me. I'm not sure. It's not really funny, just lame.
- The final trade of words between Venom and Riot before the final battle is nothing but total Ham-to-Ham Combat - that and the two symbiotes happen to be Perpetual Smilers, which just gives off the feeling that they don't really give that much of a damn about their goals.
- Towards the end of the film, it's revealed that Venom used to be something of a loser on his home planet, like Eddie. This is his entire reason for wanting to save the Earth. Moment played as a joke, so it isn't Narm.
- Despite angrily forcing Eddie to spit out cooked meats because they're no longer living animals, the symbiote develops a taste for tater tots, and it practically demands that Eddie buy some during a conversation in the ending. The director admitted in an interview that the writers just thought it was funny and put it in the script. It unfortunately invites comparisons to a similar tots-focused scene in Napoleon Dynamite as a result. Entry admits it's a joke. So it isn't Narm.
- Drake having bonded with Riot is treated as a huge shocking twist going into the final battle... except for the fact that the audience was already well aware of it and saw the whole process. It feels very much like a consequence of Executive Meddling to give Riot more screentime. Another tricky example. Seems to fall under "scene doesn't work" instead of "scene is funny."
- Right after Eddie is separated from the symbiote, a rather obvious ADR overdub replaces the intended "fuck you" with the much less vicious "we're done". Not really funny, just falls flat.
- Eddie's "DRAKE! STOP!" sounds less like he's in pain and more like a little kid telling his Big Brother Bully to stop giving him a wedgie. Nitpicking. Most people wouldn't even pay this sequence any mind.
Another issue with Narm is the distinction between moments that are unintentionally funny on their own, and moments that are only unintentionally funny after Memetic Mutation or similar feat. Does the latter truly count as Narm? Because you can make the case that everything that has ever been made can fall under that.
Edited by MisterApes-a-lot on Mar 31st 2019 at 7:06:31 AM
MisterApes-a-lot
Since: Mar, 2018
#1002: Nov 26th 2021 at 1:54:29 PM
Yeah, those can all be cut.
Anddrix
Since: Oct, 2014
#1003: Nov 26th 2021 at 11:36:28 PM
Bringing up the following examples from Cowboy Bebop (2021):
- Narm:
- Faye's Pre Ass Kicking One Liner "Welcome to the ouch, motherfuckers!" was instantly mocked by social media and critics.
- The final scene of Season 1 comes across as much more comical than intended due to the overuse of fisheye lens and Ed's overacting and cheap-looking costume, evoking comparisons to the Spy Kids movies or old Kids' WB! commercials.
MisterApes-a-lot
Since: Mar, 2018
#1004: Nov 27th 2021 at 10:26:31 AM
First bullet reads as just a flaw. Second bullet I'm unsure about.
Anddrix
Since: Oct, 2014
#1005: Nov 28th 2021 at 1:26:46 AM
Bringing up the following examples from A Court of Thorns and Roses:
- Narm:
- Feyre's title as the "Defender of the Rainbow". To some readers it sounds more like something out of Barbie Fairytopia than this much darker series.
- Some of the sex scenes in A Court of Mist and Fury, due to things such as Feyre's vagina glowing, and Rhysand's climax shattering a mountain.
- The term "vulgar gesture" is used often in the books. However, it's never once described what this gesture looks like and why it's so vulgar. The most anyone can figure is that it's simply Flipping the Bird. Which begs the question of why it's never described as such from a book that throws around "pissy" and "prick" just as often.
- The constant uses of "male" and "female" to refer to the gender of a character has been mocked, (especially the term gentlemale) alongside the sheer number of times "mate" appears from Feyre realizing Rhys is her mate on.
- In A Court of Frost and Starlight it's mentioned that Rhysand and Feyre had sex in the sky while flying over Velaris. And that they were so passionate they nearly crashed into someone's roof. The whole situation conjures up some hilarious imagery, especially considering it's such a wildly impractical location to get it on and the likelihood several citizens would have spotted them.
- The phrase "I let out a breath I didn't know I'd been holding" or slight variations thereof crops up repeatedly. Some readers find it annoyingly repetitive and improbable, with a few joking it makes it seem Feyre has respiratory problems. It doesn't help that the line is considered overused to the point of cliche in fiction, especially in YA fiction.
- For some, the Inner Circle's utter horror over how much Nesta spent at a bar ("500 gold marks") can become this considering that in the same chapter, it's stated that Feyre and Rhysand have five houses and just finished renovating a gargantuan riverside mansion.
He/Him
#1006: Nov 28th 2021 at 4:22:21 AM
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
- Not a moment. Cut
- Should be broken up into individual moments, as otherwise the example comes of as very general.
- Again, not a moment. Comes off as fridge narm. Cut
- Once again, not a moment. Cut
- While silly, as described I'm not entirely sure it was meant to be taken completely seriously. Needs more context
- Repeated phraseology does not a narm moment make. Cut
- For some = arguable example. Cut
Unoriginalusername3
from Nimmermeer
Since: Apr, 2019
Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
#1007: Nov 30th 2021 at 2:30:00 AM
From Eternals:
- Druig knocking out Sprite with a rock has gotten a few chuckles due to being so abrupt and greatly clashing with the latter's immediately preceding emotional speec
That seems to be the intention of the scene: Sprite is giving thus big speech and then she's suddenly knocked out. It is supposed to be abrupt.
Edited by Unoriginalusername3 on Nov 30th 2021 at 11:30:54 AM
Very Spooky
#1008: Nov 30th 2021 at 4:03:39 AM
I mean, it doesn’t matter if it was intended to be abrupt or not; all that matters is that it was meant to be taken seriously but came off as funny to audiences. I haven’t seen the film myself, so I can’t give my own opinion on the validity of the entry.
back lol
TantaMonty
Since: Aug, 2017
#1009: Nov 30th 2021 at 8:35:59 AM
Keep the Eternals example. That scene was supposed to be shocking, but I can confirm that it caused some audiences to burst into laughter.
Anddrix
Since: Oct, 2014
#1010: Dec 2nd 2021 at 4:12:06 AM
Bringing up the following examples from The Flash 2014 S 8 E 3 Armageddon Part Three:
- Narm:
- It is really hard to take Cecile's breakdown seriously, considering how over-the-top it is.
- The fact that the Justice League hangar, even two years after Crisis, still has water puddles everywhere, which is likely murder for all the delicate science equipment stored there (which Barry, the forensic scientist, ought to know) and makes it look like none of the heroes care at all what their HQ looks like.
Very Spooky
#1011: Dec 2nd 2021 at 5:08:15 AM
- This might count, but it’s very low on context.
- Just nitpicking; cut.
Edited by jandn2014 on Dec 2nd 2021 at 8:08:24 AM
back lol
Anddrix
Since: Oct, 2014
#1012: Dec 3rd 2021 at 12:38:11 PM
Bringing up the following examples from Ad Astra:
- Narm:
- Brad Pitt fights a baboon in space. It's as ridiculous as it sounds yet the films takes it completely seriously.
- The entire segment of Roy attempting to contact his father from Mars becomes impossible to take seriously for anyone who's played Far Cry 5 thanks to the presence of Greg Bryk, who still looks exactly like that game's Big Bad Joseph Seed including his man bun.
- The fact that Roy's second message is underscored by what sounds like "Sunshine (Adagio In D Minor)" (AKA the stock "inspirational trailer music") doesn't help.
- The hilariously inept manner in which the Cepheus' crew kill themselves while trying to capture Roy is likely to produce laughter rather than shock.
MisterApes-a-lot
Since: Mar, 2018
#1013: Dec 3rd 2021 at 5:46:03 PM
- ZCE
- Association Narm - Cut
- Doesn't say what's funny
- Maybe fine
Anddrix
Since: Oct, 2014
#1014: Dec 4th 2021 at 11:27:56 PM
Bringing up these examples from Imagine Dragons:
- Narm:
- The beat in "Gold" that's a split second of Dan singing. It sounds more like they left a hiccup in the song and decided to save face by making it the beat.
- The high-pitched vocals and blatant autotune in "Thunder" undermine the song a great deal.
TantaMonty
Since: Aug, 2017
#1015: Dec 5th 2021 at 7:54:15 AM
Both are complaining. Cut away.
Musician/Composer
#1016: Dec 5th 2021 at 1:52:03 PM
So, I'm thinking that Narm.One Piece might need to undergo an extensive cleanup. Any ideas?
He/His/Him. No matter who you are, always Be Yourself.
Anddrix
Since: Oct, 2014
#1017: Dec 6th 2021 at 12:48:05 AM
Bringing up the following example from Digimon X-Evolution:
- Narm: Leomon has a tendency to die in every season by divine rule but this time the death comes out of nowhere in the first minutes.
TantaMonty
Since: Aug, 2017
#1018: Dec 6th 2021 at 5:50:27 AM
Doesn't explain what's funny. Cut.
There are a lot of examples on that page. Any particular one you would like to discuss?
Edited by TantaMonty on Dec 6th 2021 at 5:50:41 AM
Anddrix
Since: Oct, 2014
#1019: Dec 7th 2021 at 1:30:08 AM
Bringing up the following examples from Doctor Who S28 E7 "The Idiot's Lantern":
- Narm:
- The Wire starts off as a subtle menace, with an understated performance by Maureen Lipmann as a smug manipulator. This all falls apart when she starts gurning and mewling "I'M HUNGRYYYYY! FEEEED MEEEE!!!" like a petulant toddler.
- Eddie Connolly is narmy as well. Possibly even more so since his subplot deals with the serious subject of domestic abuse, making his childlike ranting even more awkward.
MisterApes-a-lot
Since: Mar, 2018
#1020: Dec 7th 2021 at 9:55:05 AM
First bullet might be fine. Second bullet is a ZCE and just reads as a complaint.
#1021: Dec 7th 2021 at 10:44:12 AM
First bullet is probably fine if the complaining is removed. Second one is ZCE.
So, let's hang an anchor from the sun... also my Tumblr
Anddrix
Since: Oct, 2014
#1022: Dec 8th 2021 at 8:30:09 AM
Bringing up the following examples from The Flash 2014 S 8 E 4 Armageddon Part Four:
- Narm:
- Viewers are very much fed up with Barry always fixing things with Iris and The Power of Love.
- Allegra and Chester spent 10 years with unresolved romantic tension. Even worse when you hear Chester's side of the story of why they broke up to begin with.
- Ryan's Atom outfit, while extremely comic-accurate, does look a significant step down from the original tech-heavy armored setup.
MisterApes-a-lot
Since: Mar, 2018
#1023: Dec 8th 2021 at 11:29:46 AM
- Just a complaint
- Ditto
- Same as above
Cut all three.
MisterApes-a-lot
Since: Mar, 2018
#1024: Dec 8th 2021 at 2:08:08 PM
I've cleaned up the following examples on The Incredible Hulk (1977):
Incredible Hulk Narm
- Narm: Any time a scene with the Hulk has bystanders speaking, the dialogue is added post-production because the Hulk is constantly subjected to Overcrank for dramatic effect and the limitations of the film and recording equipment at the time made it difficult to perfect the timing of speaking parts without the slow-motion sequences distorting the audio captures, so the vocal audio parts (aside from Lou Ferrigno's Hulk noises) were recorded separately on a sound stage. Because none of the vocal performances are live, they always sound so fake and shoehorned in, like a crummy Godzilla dub, with the tones and delivery of the lines never meshing cleanly with the scenes of the Hulk. Worse, a lot of the time, the dialogue would be thrown in while the characters were off-screen, making it painfully obvious they couldn't lip-sync any of the sound bytes, or even sound like they're in the same place as the Hulk (characters from afar sound too loud for it to sound believable and like they're blurting their lines out or just plain shouting into the mics). This is Special Effect Failure.
- The Hulk never hits or kicks anyone outright. He just throws them aside. Though it's probably because David is influencing the Hulk not to directly harm anybody in this incarnation of the Hulk (while others are more freely berserk), one can determine from consecutive viewings of the show that it's because standards wouldn't allow it. The one time the Hulk got close to inflicting real harm on people is when David accidentally uncorked the dark side of his personality and all his repressed primal urges for violence bled out in the Hulk's transformation, in the titular episode, "Dark Side". Just a flaw. Doesn't say what's funny.
- The very fact that Dr. Banner in this series had his name changed to "David" because someone thought "Bruce" sounded gay/effeminate. Meta; not in the show.
- The Hulk always taking a moment to pull off the tatters of David's now-ripped shirt following his transformation. ZCE
- Knowing that David will transform into the Hulk at least twice per episode in obligatory fashion (provided the episode doesn't deviate from the usual formula, and that some Contrived Coincidence will cause him to suffer injury to trigger the transformation, and leave him conveniently unobserved/concealed so his identity is never exposed. ZCE. More of a meta complaint.
- Just about every person of the week has a melodramatic sob story attached to them and a reason to whine about why their life sucks eggs, just so David can rebuild their confidence in humanity by the end of the episode. If it's a child or a young woman, chances are they'll come from a broken home with a single parent just to play up the sympathy card. And most times, the father will stereotypically be the reason behind the broken family, because men lack the compassion women and children do. Just a complaint. Goes on a tangent.
- Any time David goes someplace new, he will be subjected to outsider persecution syndrome- someone will automatically refuse to trust him, peg him as dangerous, and instantly want to throw David under the bus the minute they have an excuse to do so, and/or finger David as the source of conflict. Just complaining.
- David constantly using an alias that takes the form of David B-whatever. The only reason he keeps getting away with it is because the series took place in The '70s, which predated the age of integrated computers, and most records were still kept in paper and had no through-line in the form of the modern Internet to tie them all together. Yet, it's so paper-thin that if the story were set in today's computerized age, where records can be tied together, he'd be tracked down quite easily because all someone would have to do is ping all the occurrences of those symmetrical David B-whatever aliases across job employment databases in the contiguous United States, organize them by date, and then they could triangulate his movements across the country, anticipate his next move and ambush him, and the fugitive saga would be over in a heartbeat. Just a complaint.
- From The Incredible Hulk Returns:
Donald Blake raising the Mjolnir hammer (his usual method of summoning Thor): "Odiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiin!" ZCE.- Season 3 had a lot of inexplicable cheesy humor injected into the stories, sometimes working against their otherwise unrelentingly serious tone in a bad way, such as the Hulk being attracted to a green store mannequin in an otherwise tension-filled standoff between criminals who wanted to raid a mall vault. Humor can't be Narm.
- A lot of David's transformation scenes, taken out of context, can appear very silly. Though it's usually a reason more related to people he knows being hurt or in distress, the actual event that triggers his eyes to turn green will sometimes involve very mundane things like arguing with an operator that he "DOESN'T HAVE 25 CENTS!!!", being stuck inside a taxi cab in New York City traffic and yelling "I HAVE TO BE THERE BY FIVE!!!", or perhaps most infamously...
David: I DON'T WANT TEEEEEAAAAAA!!! Fine.
I put my reasoning here because it would have made for a lengthy edit reason.
Shadow8411
Since: Jul, 2019
#1025: Dec 8th 2021 at 7:31:03 PM
From Undercover Boss:
- Narm: The US version of the show often tends to come across as this, since every employee that ends up in the spotlight is either unwaveringly loyal to the job and loves every minute of it, has a tragic past, gets by just fine despite alleged claims of tight schedules or is struggling to make their ends meet: none of the bosses seem to be particularly inconvenienced to any major degree beyond what would normally be expected of the job and when they are, it's either some kind of a minor bureaucratic slip-up or just a normal, somewhat unexpected part of the normal job. Contrast this with the UK version, where the employees are generally more neutral when it comes to their job, can be grossly overworked, can hate their management, are more likely to show bad behavior (ignoring rules and regulations, badmouthing customers) right in front of their undercover bosses on a regular basis and their tragic pasts can be entirely or partially the fault of the company they work for (lack of sympathy in form of being denied days off in event of a family tragedy, forced into a low-paying position with no chance for a better-paying one due to budget cuts and costly training the company isn't willing to pay for regardless of their employee's dire financial situation): the bosses are likewise shown to much more openly dislike their temporary jobs, forced to do 12 hour shifts of hard manual labor and be surprised when something they took for granted is exactly the opposite in reality.
There's no specific moment mentioned in this example, it just seems like someone complaining about one version measuring up to the standard of another.
Total posts: 2,661
Bringing up the following from Dark Dungeons: