During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
I'll abstain on Killmonger
Now then since it's now the 30th, I can talk about the DLC for Assassin's Creed: Odyssey, The Fate Of Atlantis, where one of my candidates appear, namely Juno.
So Juno appears in the 3rd episode of the DLC Judgment of Atlantis and she does some things that may be problematic for her as an MB.
So first off her actions in the DLC. So Juno and her husband has abducted dozens, if not thousands of humans throughout Atlantis, fatally experimenting on them to create the Olympos creatures, which are monstrous abomination.
Then there's her attitude towards humans. Basically the relationships between the Isu and the humans is comparable to that of white supremacist for the former who looked down on the former as inferior and humans being treated as Blacks, and Juno is regarded as the worst of the Isu. To boil down Juno is shown to be utterly racist towards human, even before they killed her father, she calls The Eagle Bearer hybrid in a derogatory manner due to them having human DNA along with Isu, and her reasons for conducting her horrific experiments on humans is out of sheer fanatic racism, even saying that humanity is the real threat to the Isu not the impending solar flare that would eventually annihilate them.
Granted I'm not sure how Fantastic Racism works compared to Politically Incorrect Villain, and she does mellow a little in the present saying she wants to "save humanity" but even then she still views humans as the inferior race compared to Isu and an Assassin says this about Juno, "Juno’s an Isu Supremacist; the Ultimate Fascist. She doesn’t believe humans should have any say in their destiny at all. As far as she’s concerned, we're just… livestock. ". So with that I not sure if we should keep Juno due to having some very unsavory qualities, but I'll leave that decision for you guys to decide.
Edited by G-Editor on Jul 29th 2019 at 11:44:52 PM
Mmm... lemme think. I can see that being a problem, depending on how it’s played:
No to Kilmonger. He's way too tragic and what little bastard qualities he has make him way too much of one. Great villain, but I don't think he counts.
I just thought since people were in the mood for re-evaluations that it'd be worth bringing a character I thought was too unstable to count. But still I think we can keep Kuja. Forgive me.
Lizzid people!
Too tragic? What does that have to do with him not making the cut?
So is anyone going to comment of Juno given the points that I recently said about her?
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to the Joker
Edited by G-Editor on Jul 30th 2019 at 1:10:47 AM
Well, here's a new EP for you guys. I'd considered EPing Aodh Canmore in the hopes that it would be enough for Let's Play to get its own section, but since he would've been my third "unscrupulous but patriotic political and military figure" in a row, I decided to mix things up a little. I'll probably get back to Canmore before too long, but before I do, I'd like to submit an alternate take on one of the most iconic comic book villains of all.
What's the work?
Batman & Captain America is a 1996 Elseworlds one-shot crossover between, well, Batman and Captain America. The plot is about these superheroes and their sidekicks teaming up to stop their respective archenemies during World War II. One of these supervillains is just as vile as his main universe counterpart, while the other is portrayed in a somewhat less loathsome light. The former, as I'm sure you already know, is one of Adolf Hitler's top subordinates, the Red Skull. The latter is none other than the Clown Prince of Crime himself, The Joker.
Who is he? What has he done?
Unlike his main universe counterpart, this version of Joker isn't a crazed Serial Killer, but more of a hybrid between The Don and a Diabolical Mastermind. He's introduced in a car chase where he's trying to outrun the Gotham Police and the Batmobile in his Jokermobile. Joker deploys an Oil Slick that sends the cop cars careening, but Batman — being Batman — has already installed a countermeasure. Seemingly cornered at the docks, Joker escapes using an Ejection Seat and parachutes to freedom. As Batman checks his abandoned car for clues, it explodes, and he and Robin narrowly avoid getting caught in the blast.
Some time later, Batman and Captain America team up to foil an attempted kidnapping of Robert Oppenheimer. While the would-be kidnappers are being interrogated, they suddenly drop dead with grotesque smiles on their faces. The culprit: skin patches that slowly leaked Joker venom into their bodies.
When we next see Joker in person, he's in the Abandoned Warehouse he's using as a headquarters, complaining about the added security in Gotham. Then he gets a video call from his Mysterious Informant, they argue briefly, it's revealed Joker's scheming to blackmail an enormous sum of money out of Gotham City, and the informant tells him "the prototype" (a nuclear bomb known as "Fat Boy") is being shipped out of Gotham that night. So Joker and his henchmen slip out of Gotham and gas a patrol to steal their uniforms. When the convoy arrives, they gas them and take the vehicles. Once they arrive at the secret airfield, they gas the personnel and watch as the informant's plane lands. Then he finally meets his informer face to face.
It's the Red Skull, who tells Joker that Hitler intends to personally reward him with Nazi Germany's highest honors.
Cue the memorable scene where Joker makes it very clear that he despises Nazis, famously declaring "I may be a criminal lunatic, but I'm an American criminal lunatic!"
He and Red Skull attack each other with their respective chemical weapons, but they turn out to be immune to each others' toxins as well as their own because of how similar the poisons are to each other. So one of Skull's henchmen knocks Joker out with a wrench. Skull elects not to kill him, but instead take him back to Germany, where he'll be paraded through the streets as "an example of the kind of freakish monsters America has produced".
Later on, as Bats and Cap fight Skull and his henchmen, Joker reveals he's gotten loose and starts smashing the mechanism that lowers the bomb to prevent the Skull from dropping it. Skull and Joker start fighting on top of Fat Boy, but all three of them fall into the Atlantic Ocean. While it seems like the two have died, neither Bats nor Cap actually believe they've seen the last of them.
How does he operate? Is he magnificent?
Joker is one hell of a smooth operator. He manages to get away from Batman despite the Dark Knight expecting some kind of trick, slips out of Gotham despite the added security, comes up with a simple but effective plan to steal Fat Boy, and escapes captivity to ensure the Red Skull's defeat. He's charismatic too, with all the banter and funny lines you'd expect, and you'll definitely root for him when he turns on the Skull. I'm honestly surprised he didn't go out doing his best Major Kong impression.
Is he a bastard?
Let's see: mass murder, willingness to kill his own goons, theft of a nuke... yeah, he's a bastard.
Is he too much of a bastard?
Well, aside from the aforementioned Nazi hatred, this Joker shows other signs of not being as horrible as other versions of the character. As I mentioned above, he's not a homicidal maniac who murders for the fun of it, and he lacks the sadistic streak of the main universe Joker. While he does steal an atomic bomb, there's no indication he has any intention of actually using it. And remember the bit with the minions he killed? Well, the method he used combined with his anger at losing them strongly hints that it was just a means of keeping them from spilling the beans if caught, much like giving an agent a Cyanide Pill. That's pretty different from the Skull killing one of his own cronies for a minor act of insubordination.
What's the competition like?
He manages to outfox Batman despite the latter expecting him to have at least one more trick up his sleeve. While he does get fooled into thinking he'd killed some military personnel at one point, it's only because they had advance knowledge due to one of the Skull's mistakes. And since killing them was never an end in itself and he had no way of knowing they had advance knowledge, I think we can let it slide.
Now, I know there's a question some of you are thinking: "But isn't he more or less an Unwitting Pawn of the Red Skull?" And the answer is... not really. Or at least not exactly. Bats and Cap think he's being manipulated and doesn't know what he's doing, but what we see paints a different picture. Joker is openly disdainful of his Mysterious Informant and quite clearly doesn't fully trust him. He says he's not following orders, but listening to suggestions, and is only playing along because benefits him at the moment. And he seriously considers double-crossing him at one point. So while he is being misled, the Skull never truly "uses" him. Besides, when you compare the two, Joker's more magnificent and less vile than Skull.
Any mitigating factors?
Aside from what I've discussed above, nothing I could find.
Verdict?
This guy has all the wit, cunning, audacity and ruthlessness you'd expect from the Caped Crusader's archenemy, while lacking the instability and sick depravity that have undermined other versions' MB credentials. I'm giving him a .
If you have any questions, don't hesitate to ask.
Edited by ImperialMajestyXO on Aug 14th 2019 at 2:21:04 AM
Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II
Sure to the Joker.
J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
Enthusiastic to the Joker.
I'm gonna Abstain On Killmonger. But only for the Instability thing, and I should point that, his instability is present..but he seems to keep it from getting in the way of his plans.
as for the Racial thing...Aside from not being Clear enough, even with the "Undertones", what exactly separates him from Magneto? Aside from making the Subtext Text.
Things are really about to get Fun around here
Lizzid people!
Because Mutants don't actually exist?
Quick question: if this Joker gets approved, would he go in the Marvel or DC folder? Or both?
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Sure to the Joker. Man that feels weird to say.
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
@Austin
But neither do Wizards, and Grindelwald was decided not to be this because the Parallels to real life stuff with HIM was similarly clear.
I assumed it was because of how Magnetos thing was less "Were the superior race" and more "We've been opressed for so long, time to fight back" Wich similarly applies to Killmonger.
Edited by Kylotrope on Jul 30th 2019 at 4:58:50 AM
Things are really about to get Fun around here
Joker.
And after thinking about it, I don't think that Killmonger is too unstable and he isn't that monstrous by MCU standards, so to him
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
I agree actually. Magneto is explicitly a Mutant Supremacist, and that's similar to Killmonger. I'd give Killmonger a ![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
due to Psychopathic Manchild undertones.
Edited by jjjj2 on Jul 30th 2019 at 8:04:37 AM
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
As discussed? Yeah to Killmonger.
And... Am I really saying this? Yes to Joker?
Unless someone makes a good counterpoint.
Would this be his first keep - ignoring Arkham City's little surprise, if he counts as Joker?
You know what I’ll give Killmonger a .
Also don’t ignore what I said about Juno since I mentioned many factors that might get Juno disqualified
Well I still think somebody should effortpost The Dark Knight version, but I think that's gonna be a controversial one...
Edit: Yes to this joker by the way.
Edited by jjjj2 on Jul 30th 2019 at 8:18:54 AM
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Cut Juno. That human experimentation sounds downright disgusting.
Abstain on Killmonger.
American Criminal Lunatic.
For Juno... I think I'll actually lean towards cut given the two factors together. When I put up Scirocco, he was pretty well the only high-ranking member of the Titans with no stated involvement in their brainwashing program: which was one of the many things that helped Bask earn his place as a CM and one of the many factors why I'd never wanna see Jamitov being brought up here. This case of experimentation sounds awful and coupled with the "Humans can't pick their destiny, we as the supreme beings must do it for them" stretches it a bit too far.
It was my understanding that Grindlewald's bigotry had parallels to Nazism like a lot of the Harry Potter villains, while Magneto's by comparison is more of the standard Fantastic Racism not played for all the weight it could be, the difference seems pretty apparent to me. If Killmonger were to be interpreted as bigoted, he'd automatically fall into the "real world" camp and that would create an instant issue. Note that's not the reason I personally downvoted him but I think it bears mentioning for the sake of clarifying a few of the points above.
Oh and yes to thee Joker while I'm here.
Edited by 43110 on Jul 30th 2019 at 8:17:42 AM
The Draftsman of Doom
Also, Imperial, my answer to your question would be DC since he's that creator's contribution to the joint universe comic. Others might see it differently though.
Huh. There's one that slipped under my mind. Sure to the Joker.
Others have said what I wanted to say. No to Killmonger, great a villain as he is.
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
Nay on Killmonger but I can understand why people vote yes.
Also... An enthusiastic yes for Joker. I'm glad we have a MB version of him up of all CM incarnations.
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
@ Ravok, While I've pulled his entry to gut potholes did you wanna add anything to it?