Sandbox / Both Sides Have A Point Wick Check

The title Both Sides Have a Point seems to suggest this is about a work presenting two opposing opinions/motivations with merit in each. However, if you look at the description it talks about a neutral character necessary to acknowledge/lampshade this fact. It has been like this from the get go.

The Wick Check reveals that only 5 examples (10%) adhere to this strict definition. I attribute the misuse of 90% to the fact that none of the other X Has A Point tropes require a third party to acknowledge the validity of a character's opinion. In this sense, the trope sticks out like a sore thumb.

Then again, someone having a valid reason for their actions (from a certain point of view anyway) is almost a given and this creating a conflict with someone else's valid opinion is likely to occur in a work. So the question is how much tangibility we require for this "conflict of valid opinions".

The two obvious courses of action:

1. Keep current definition and curb misuse (hoping that enough examples remain). Possibly rename to clarify.
2. Losen up on the definition and allow the audience to decide if the trope is in play

Note that we had a similar issue with Not So Different where the decision was made to keep the definition and change the name to "Not So Different" Remark in order to clarify the narrower meaning.

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Wick Check

Neutral in-universe observer ( 5 of 50 = 10%)

• A Dovahkiin Spreads His Wings:
  • Surprisingly Ned's and Catelyn's argument about Jon has shades of this. While Ned is correct in that Jon wouldn't harm his siblings in any way like Catelyn fears, Catelyn is equally correct that he shouldn't try to force Jon to stay in Westeros when Jon wants to return to Skyrim.
  • Howland Reed later points this out as an attempt to close the growing distance between Bran and Catelyn. However due to being Locked Out of the Loop on the full context of his parents' argument but knowing it was about Jon, causes Bran to soundly reject this as he believes that the argument was just about Jon's bastard status.
• Kingdom Hearts Ψ: The Seeker of Darkness: When the team debate at length what to do about Vanitas, between Sora wanting to give him a body and try to get him on their side against Xehanort, while Aqua feels they have no reason to trust that he won't go back to him, pointing out that Xehanort is still looking for a thirteenth vessel. The majority agree with Sora, with Goofy raising the point that Vanitas could have left the Tower at any time while possessing Ventus, but Yen Sid at least acknowledges that he doesn't have a lot of hope that Vanitas will join them.
• Ennea Series: The Voices argue on whether it's right to let Kota grieve the way he is i.e by telling Hawks it's a good thing he lost his wings and blaming him for surviving an attack from Muscular while Kota's parents didn't. Orange points out Kota should be put in therapy while Green says Kota is a child who does not really know what he's saying and how hurtful it is. Pink and Purple join the argument, with Pink also excusing Kota due to his age. Purple says that age is no excuse: he needs to process his grief differently or he'll be just as angry and hateful as an adult (much like Kotaro).
• Champions (Marvel Comics): Presumably how Cyclops feels when he abstains voting, be it on whether to use powers during paintball or whether to invite Vivian 2.0 to join the Champions.
• Where Talent Goes to Die: Momo's mother wants her to make a life for herself outside her village, since she doesn't see much of a future for her there. Momo's father wants her to return home after graduating from Talent High School, since he doesn't believe that she can eke out an existence outside the village. Momo acknowledges that life is difficult outside the village but the village is stagnating, and so chooses to return home in order to bring change to her village.

No third party ( 45 of 50 = 90%)

• Higurashi: When They Cry: Satoko and Rika's fallout in Satokowashi-hen. Although Satoko snapping and becoming murderous is certainly not how one should go about things, Satoko struggles at St. Lucia because the curriculum is much harder than she's used to and is afraid to ask for help because she's already seen as an immature hick by her high-class peers. On the other hand, Rika has the right to move on with her life and it would be unfair for her to be stuck as someone's Living Emotional Crutch, even if Satoko has abandonment issues, and regardless of what their classmates would think, she offered to help Satoko without judgement. Satoko later points out harshly to Rika that some people are just better at things than others and that should be okay, and that she partially joined her because Rika wanted this to be their dream life together. Alas, the whole debacle could have been solved with much needed therapy and communication.
• Xenoblade Chronicles 2: Rex and Mythra's argument at the beginning of Chapter 4. While Rex is right not to let the bad guys get a hold of her for their own nefarious goals, Mythra is also right about not wanting to be awakened due to her dangerous power level.
• Grand Theft Auto IV: Niko chastises Darko for selling him and their fallen comrades out over $1,000 worth of cocaine. And Darko returns the favor to Niko, saying he has killed many people for money.
• The Handmaid's Tale: June's mother is right that she should have been more politically conscious and prepared more for the downfall of the US, and June was at least underestimating her own intelligence. June is also right that it isn't safe.
• Good Witch: At the end of Season Two, Brandon and Tara argue about her contacting her birth mother. Brandon worries that she's just going to get hurt again, while she's insistent that she needs to understand why she left her.
• The Walking Dead S10 E04 "Silence the Whisperers": While Lydia is right to not take shit from bullies who are painting graffiti on her door, as Daryl points out, she can't exactly skin squirrels at the public dining hall either.
• Tangled: The Series S2E18 "You're Kidding Me!": Rapunzel believes in being nurturing when dealing with children while Eugene believes children need firm boundaries and discipline. They ultimately have to use the other's parenting style when Cassandra and Lance are in danger, and end up agreeing that both of their styles are valid. In any case, they both agree that not all kids are the same.
• Sagwa The Chinese Siamese Cat S 1 E 16 Exploers Club Time For Everything: Dongwa and Baba have a heart-to-heart about what's been on their minds lately. Dongwa explains that Kung-fu means a lot to him and it would be unfair to force him to give it up for calligraphy. While Baba understands and will gladly let his son attend the Kung-fu tournament, he reasons that he never meant for calligraphy to be a chore, but more like an artform or a talent the way Kung-fu is.
• Rick And Morty S 5 E 3 A Rickconvenient Mort: When Morty is explaining why Planetina's methods are too beyond the pale for him to continue seeing her, he cites how she killed a bunch of people in her crusade, and she responds that he killed the Tina-teers. She is correct that she and Morty aren't so different in how they both are quick to resort to extreme violence against their foes; however, Morty is also correct when he points out that the people he killed were much bigger Asshole Victims than hers.
• Naomi 2022 S 1 E 8 Fellowship Of The Disc:
  • Both Dee and Zumbado have valid points with their different training approaches, which is why they settle for a compromise of both of them teaching her at the end.
  • Naomi is right to point out that Annabelle is in danger because of her, but Annabelle is also right that she's old enough to make her own decisions.
• Legends Of Tomorrow S 7 E 7 A Womans Place Is In The War Effort: The forewoman of the janitors agrees with Astra that changes are needed in how women, and especially women of color, are treated, but she also points out that forcing such changes onto people as rapidly as Astra did will only be met with resistance, and probably not last long. To make a lasting change, slow and steady is the best process.
• DuckTales (2017) S3E12 "Let's Get Dangerous!": Darkwing and Gosalyn's conflict over Taurus Bulba veers into this. Darkwing points out that she's coming to him with nothing more than hearsay about a reputable citizen so he has nothing to legitimately work with; plus she's already committed breaking and entering twice within twenty-four hours. But Gosalyn is heavily implied to be correct that Darkwing isn't willing to act because of the risk to his own reputation or ego. Eventually, Darkwing agrees it's acceptable to at least investigate.
• Buffy the Vampire Slayer S5E20 "Spiral": When Gregor argues with Buffy about killing Dawn, he points out that most of Dawn's life is a lie and she's one life that would be sacrificed to save millions. Buffy retorts that Dawn is her kid sister and a living, breathing, feeling being with people who love her.
• Amphibia S3-E20 "Sasha's Angels": Katara argues that with Ozai in hiding, it's best to run. Hakoda argues that everyone who came for the invasion knew the risk. He has a point though Katara is ultimately proven right.
• Amphibia S2-E31 "Barrel's Warhammer": While Braddock and Percy aren't wrong about Sasha treating her friends poorly and caring more about results for her goals than about their safety, Grime is also very reasonable in his point that Braddock and Percy were physically, mentally and emotionally cut out for only so much service they could give the toads mission before they'd hit their limit and need to quit, so this would have happened eventually even if Sasha had chosen to act differently.
• Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. S3 E7 "Chaos Theory": Daisy believes Rosalind is overreacting to the Inhumans out of fear. Rosalind herself gladly concedes to the fear but points out in turn that Daisy is a best-case scenario, and for everyone like her, there's another like Lash. Given the number of cases, it'd be unrealistic to apply Daisy's method to every single one, but it definitely worked for Joey. For someone like Lash, even Daisy admits that Rosalind's method is the better option.
• Puella Magi Madoka Magica: The Different Story: Mami and Kyoko have conflicting opinions on whether or not they should be hunting familiars in addition to witches. Mami believes that they should down familiars before they have a chance to grow into full witches that could hurt innocent people, especially since no one but the magical girls themselves can protect people from this threat. Kyoko believes that hunting familiars is a waste, since familiars don't provide Grief Seeds with which to cleanse their Soul Gems and thus take up valuable and limited magical power with no direct benefit to the magical girl. Mami certainly isn't wrong to want to protect innocent people, but Kyoko isn't wrong for taking the practical side of things into account. A city can only have so many witches, and hunting the familiars before they can grow into witches themselves further limits that number; with multiple magical girls in the same city, there are only so many Grief Seeds to go around.
• Don't Toy with Me, Miss Nagatoro: Comes up when the Arts Club President threatens to disband the club for improper activities and a general lack of seriousness. On one hand, Senpai, to whom she entrusted the club in her absence, has just been letting some outsider girls goof off in the club premises, and it doesn't help that his last artwork was of Nagatoro as a cat girl, more fitting for a manga club than a fine arts one. On the other hand, Nagatoro butts in to protest how the President can talk about disbanding the club despite being an inactive member, and she asserts that Senpai really is hardworking. The President acknowledges her point, but maintains that she can't just let things slide, as the school's student council itself is concerned about the misuse of the club.
• The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-time: Judy and Ed's massive argument regarding Christopher when Ed catches up to him in London:
  • Judy is furious that Ed told Christopher she was dead and decided to just write her out of his life completely.
  • Ed is furious that Judy left him and Christopher to pursue an affair with Mr. Shears, and points out that writing letters to Christopher is no good because it can't compare to actually being there for Christopher and looking after him.
• Gone Baby Gone: Jack Doyle is quite right that Helene is a horribly unfit mother who shows no signs of ever-changing and that Amanda is better off under his care. Patrick is also right that, whatever his intentions are or Helene's flaws, he still kidnapped her and it's not up to him to make such decisions about Amanda's well-being.
• A Storm of Swords: Invoked by Kevan on the night before Tyrion's scheduled execution. While telling Tyrion that he completely understands why Tyrion has always hated his father, Kevan reminds him that Tywin restored the family's reputation, which Tytos Lannister had allowed to decline in his later years, and Tyrion himself benefited from that.
• Two of Us: In their biggest argument in the film, Paul and John air their own grievances that led to the Beatles breaking up.
  • John hated how much Paul resented Yoko had become a part of his life to the point where she was with him in recording sessions. He also was not amused by how much Paul had been taking over the group to the point that every A-side was a Paul song.
  • Paul says that he hated Yoko mostly because it was easier to be mad at her than John. He was heartbroken as he felt he was losing his best friend, and that she taking his place with John even in a musical capacity. He also insists that he was on the A-sides because no one else was coming up with anything good.
• You've Got Mail: Inverted, it's more like "Both sides are wrong". Joe is simply an entrepreneur and isn't doing anything illegal, but his pride in taking out competing book stores left and right is unethical. And while Kathleen has good intentions trying to save her mother's bookstore, she's prejudiced thinking Fox Books is just a greedy, impersonal corporation when in reality it's a decent book store that brings people together, and in fact goes on to hire one of Kathleen's co-workers in order to make their children's department more knowledgeable.
• Other People's Money: Larry and Jorgy have fundamentally opposed views of what a business is for and how it ought to be run, but neither is wrong. One of the great things about the film is that it avoids the easy moralizing of portraying Jorgy as right and Larry as wrong. They are both right.
• 55 Days at Peking: While the protagonists are from the Western Powers, who are struggling to hold out in the siege and not be brutally slaughtered first by the violent Boxers and later by the Imperial troops, the film does at least acknowledge that the Chinese people as a whole have very justified reasons to be angry at the occupation of their country by the foreign powers. Empress Cixi at one point rants to Sir Arthur that thirteen of the eighteen provinces of China are under foreign control and consequently being exploited: "China is a prostrate cow! The Powers are no longer content to milk her; now they are butchering her for her meat!"
• American Pie: Jim, Kevin, Finch, and Oz were right to call out Stifler on his behavior, as not only did he needed to learn to be a better friend but also to stop dwelling in his "High School" years. However, Stifler points out that they never really treated him as a friend to begin with nor really bothered to convey to him the problem they had with his behavior beforehand.
• Shadows Over Hell: When Stella confronts Octavia at the end of Chapter 5, the two have an argument regarding her relationship with Loona. While Octavia is the one most in the right, as the friendship with Loona is much more real and friendly than any of the ones she's had with other demons like her, Stella does bring up a good point, that associating with a lower class demon, while her father's already in a deep scandal regarding his affair with Blitzo is going to drag her and their family's image through the mud. While it's still filled with racist, classist, and bigotted undertones, it's understandable why she'd be worried about it.
• A Smile Is Worth A Million Words: Both All Might and Sir Nighteye have two good points on someone like Izu's father, Hisashi, who had a criminal record before becoming a Pro Hero. All Might has a point about giving people second chances to redeem themselves. On the other hand, Nighteye also does has a valuable point on making sure that Hisashi was fit into becoming a Pro, or at least making sure he was screened and monitored just in case.
• World of Krypton: Jor-El and Zod's final argument is caused because the former wants to implement an austerity, resource-preserving program to save Krypton, and the latter wants to support Jor-El's initiative by using his army to crush dissenters. Jor-El is horrified at the notion of using violence to impose his ideals, but Zod replies people will never give up their privileged lifestyle for the environment's sake quietly. Jor-El insists he can convince people peacefully, but Zod retorts that it will take time, and Krypton is running out of it.
• Superman Smashes the Klan: Roberta and Tommy get into an argument over how they're trying to fit into their new neighborhood. Roberta chastises Tommy for leaning into stereotypes and making light of the offenses against them, while Tommy complains about how Roberta's distant demeanor and inability to compromise makes her stuck up and hard to approach. Her old friends from Chinatown accuse her of the same things, showing that Tommy's complaints aren't unfounded.
• Green Lanterns: Simon and Batman's conflict over the former carrying a gun. Simon is right in that, personal trauma aside, it's arbitrary and hypocritical to disdain carrying a gun when Batman has lethal armaments much more dangerous like missiles and bombs at his disposal. Batman is right in that Simon doesn't need a gun for the purported purpose of backup if the ring isn't enough; firstly, because anything that can take the ring will be invulnerable to a gun, secondly the ring runs on his confidence so having a crutch like that makes it a self-fulfilling prophecy that it'll fail.
• Twisted Wonderland Pomefiore: To do with Vil's conflict with Epel in Chapter 5. While Epel did start the fight early in the year and had to obey Vil because of how in NRC, Asskicking Equals Authority, Epel snapped and pointed out that he doesn't even want to participate in the VDC, but forced to comply with many of Vil's harsh demands for Vil's own personal agenda of being able to defeat Neige at one point or another. On the other hand, Vil also pointed out that Epel shouldn't fully embrace the notion that strength is all that there is to becoming stronger. But with Vil's Drill Sergeant Nasty methods, Epel took a while to get the idea to sink in his mind.
• League Of Legends Themes A To M: Both Order and Chaos may be dangerous, but they also each have something legitimate to offer.
• Boarding School Juliet: Airu considers Romio an irresponsible delinquent whose antics are making things harder for their family. Romeo considers Airu a jackass who holds him to unfairly high standards and never interacts with him except for disciplinary reasons. Airu isn't wrong that Romio wasn't putting effort into anything substantial and Romio that Airu is going too far with his standards, but Airu's refusal to even try reaching a compromise makes him the obvious antagonist of that arc.
• Beauty and the Beast: While Belle is wrong to go to the West Wing after the Beast tells her not to, she is right that the Beast needs to control his temper. Even the servants say this.
• The Three Musketeers: D'Artagnan argues that Iron Mask is a brigand that must be brought to justice, even if he steals to give to the poor. However, Mr. Bonacieux and Jean don't entirely see it as a bad thing, since the royal government is extremely rich and does nothing for the poor.
• Rage of Bahamut: Genesis: The demon/angel/human triangle has been taxing on humanity as a whole, and after how demons had acted during the Bahamut conflict, it's not hard to see why Charioce is putting humanity first over demonkind. However, it's also true that the demons weren't the source of the conflict, and indeed it was a human who sought to release Bahamut in the first place. Despite his terrible planning and conflict resolution, Azazel isn't wrong in wanting to free his people from a punishment that isn't wholly deserved.
• Pokémon: Lucario and the Mystery of Mew: While May was right when she chastised Ash for tackling Lucario, Ash is also right when he points out that Lucario shouldn't have insulted his friendship with Pikachu like that. (Shown in What the Hell, Hero? below.)
• Cross Ange: Jill and Ange's views on freeing the Norma. On Jill's side, while she's correct that they must kill Embryo to free the Norma, her methods of using the DRAGONs as a sacrifice so she can exact revenge on Embryo for what she did to her was taking it to an extreme. On Ange's side, she's correct that the Norma's forces have become unreliable since Embryo took Salia and Chris under his wing, Jill must take responsibility for all the damage she has done, and the Norma must help the DRAGONs stop Embryo.
• Anime/Aggretsuko:
  • In Season 2, Washimi and Gori get into a big fight over their views of marriage that lasts until the Season Finale. Washimi was married for three months, decides that marriage is not for her, and she immediately assumes that Gori isn't made for marriage either. On the other hand, Gori dismisses Washimi as being biased by her own bad experience, and she has no right to rule out marriage for everyone. While they agreed that they wouldn't apologize to each other for their views, both decide to put the fight on pause to support Retsuko when her relationship with Tadano gets leaked to the press.
  • In season 4, Anai and Haida have a serious argument about if they should do something about Kabae being forced to resign. Anai mentions that even if Himuro used company contract loopholes to force her out, he could make a report to the Labor board and chronicle what happened since it wasn't fair. Haida responds angrily that Anai needs to worry about himself, rather than stir a hornets' nest with Himuro. Any of them could be next, and even though it's bad, Kabae at least has a husband and got a generous severance package.
• Ratatouille: Rémy admits that he and his dad have different viewpoints on the food they take from humans and he can understand Django's perspective. Django says that taking garbage is better than risking their lives in the kitchen. His reasoning is that humans throw out garbage rather than protect it personally, and they don't have a chance to be picky what with the world wanting to kill them. He shows Rémy a ratcatcher shop where rodent bodies are mounted in the window, saying that it's why rats need to keep a low profile. Rémy believes, on the other hand, that it's stealing because humans often make things rather than take them, and he wants to earn his way to a good meal rather than stay a scrounger. He tells his dad that what they put into their bodies and minds has an impact and they have a choice to do better.
• Brave: One of the main points of the movie; Queen Elinor insists that having Merida do an Arranged Marriage with one of the clan lords' sons is necessary for the recently-formed kingdom's growth and stability. While being a bit forceful about it, she still has a point, especially when Merida's Loophole Abuse nearly launches the clans into war. She also points out that sometimes it DOES go pretty well and can blossom into a genuinely loving relationship (like Elinor and Fergus' did). At the same time, Merida is righteously upset that she wasn't told about the betrothal until the day before it happened, doesn't want to be seen as a prize to be won, and she doesn't feel like she is ready for marriage. Added to the fact that Merida is downright terrified of the idea, it's hard to blame her for her attempt to get out of it.
• Echo Creek: A Tale of Two Butterflies: After one of the humans trapped in the maze with Ludo secretly passes Mariposa a note saying "help", Mariposa is understandably wary of him because of that, while Meteora points out that they might just be prejudiced against Ludo for his villainous past, and when Mariposa asks Meteora to meet her halfway, Meteora points out that since she's always asking her to meet her halfway, that she should also do that sometimes, which Mariposa has to admit is a good point.
• Emma Approved: In Episode 30, after Emma's plan to reroute her sister's family vacation begins to go awry, they get into a pretty intense debate.
  IZZY: I did exactly what he does to me. That's called being a hypocrite.
  EMMA: No, that's called fighting fire with fire, and sometimes that's the only way to win!^note She's speaking of combating the character listed in the entry for Adaptational Villainy here, so her motive has the audience's sympathy, even if her method doesn't.
  IZZY: No. I don't want to win. I don't want to fight, at all. Emma, if there is a winner, then there is a loser. And when you have winners and losers in a marriage, everyone loses.
• The Jungle Book (1967): The reason Shere Khan wants to kill Mowgli is that the former doesn't want the latter to grow up to be just another hunter. Mowgli thinks this is a silly notion since he doesn't have any intention of hunting on account of growing up in the jungle. In addition, jungle animals don't typically come across weapons like that lying around in the wild, much less have the dexterity to use them. On the other side of the equation, while threatening harm on a child isn't the best way to go about it, Shere Khan's fear of man's gun and man's fire is a reasonable one, and there are some hunters out there who hunt for the sake of hurting animals instead of for food, something that's elaborated more in the deleted Villain Song "The Mighty Hunters".