Discussion YMMV / Masseffect3

Ugh, those are appalling; terminate them with extreme prejudice.

I hadn't noticed that the page was locked, but Solicitr just made a pretty convincing argument as to why it should stay that way. Should we alert a mod and submit a request to have it perma-locked?

- Fly, robin, fly! - ...I'm trying!

We at least need a mod to hit us with the revert stick.

...The worst part is, I remember being that angry about it? But time has dulled that wound.

For now, just in the slim case this isn't in bad faith, I'll get rid of them manually and ask he come here to discussion.

All right, I don't understand why all the upset. This isn't the Video Game or even the Analysis page- YMMV pages are pretty much the everything-goes wild-ideas pages, aren't they?

Oh, first person: sorry, didn't realise that was a Mo S rule. I used it to avoid the Shepard-gender-pronoun problem.

First, while you aren't wrong that YMMV pages are, by definition, about debatable subjects, they aren't the anything-goes wild west either. Many of your edits were fairly-extreme examples of Square Peg Round Trope, such as the rant you spliced in about the game's writing in general under Best Boss Ever.

Second, some of them I removed for reasons of writing. The nucleus of your Alternative Character Interpretion example for the Catalyst isn't wrong or indefensible, but adding an extra bullet point just for it, rather than simply splicing it into the character's existing paragraph on the subject, and using the first person while writing it are both no-nos.

Edited by SpectralTime

Okay, I get that; I'll be more careful about Mo S issues. But then, you also removed a similar observation about the Catalyst that was spliced into an existing paragraph.

I also don't understand why this isn't a valid entry: "Rather notoriously, given both the Codex and ME 2's drill sergeant, just one kinetic slug from a dreadnought-scale mass accelerator hits with the force of a nuclear weapon. Orbital bombardment obliterates whole cities. Yet here we have Shepard, standing less than 50 yards from the target of the entire Quarian fleet's main guns— and walks away completely unscathed (as opposed to vaporized along with everything else within five miles)."

^ First and foremost, because it's written very aggressively and complain-y. If it stays, and that's a big if, then it needs to be toned down. And second, because if that doesn't have an In-Universe explanation, then it's Artistic Licence. Explosions don't leave much room for mileage to vary, if you get my point.

- Fly, robin, fly! - ...I'm trying!

Also, not to put too fine a point on it, maybe the best place to put that particular passage was not in the middle of an otherwise unrelated trope.

Then a new entry under Slap-on-the-wrist Nuke or Plot Armor, maybe?

Plot Armor is, basically, "they survive this" because The Plot Demands It; it doesn't apply here. Slap-on-the-Wrist Nuke sounds better, but I think it's a downplayed example of the trope; the nuke in question is exactly as powerful as advertized, except it doesn't have the impact radius an attack of that size should have.

I'd also go with Rule of Cool. Why can Shepard have a face-to-face chat with a Reaper while the quarian fleet is bombing the snot out of said Reaper? A.) Because the scene looks badass, and B.) because Shepard is that awesome.

Edited by RoundRobin - Fly, robin, fly! - ...I'm trying!

• EDIT* Crap, I hit Reply instead of New Topic. Ignore, delete.

Edited by MadCat221

EDIT: Me too, sorry.

Edited by SpectralTime

Looking at the page history, it would appear that some people are very upset that other people have different feelings about the ending.

Maybe it's because some editors' attempts to remove false information have been vandalized by retarded trolls obsessed with how everyone doesn't just suck their dicks.

And so you feel the need to get rid of the whole damn page? This must be some sort of elaborate ruse. Some people disagree with you. There's no need to get so upset.

Just ignore the troll. There's no way anyone could possibly care that much.

Found a Youtube Channel with political stances you want to share? Hop on over to this page and add them.

Actually, I do think whoever it is cares that much. Some signs points towards it being somewhat likely that it is the same person vandalising this page every time, and that they might also be the same who vandalises the Wikipedia article now and then, seeing how they have the same tics of spouting threats to shoot people in the head calling people some variation of "cocksucker" and "insane" (yeah, the person repeatingly threatening bodily harm upon others over a video game plot and obsessively vandalising wiki pages is obviously a paragon of sanity).

We're all still aliens.

It's also uncited, which is why I have removed it.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

Removing it repeatedly is edit warring. And participating into someone else's repeated deletion is also edit warring.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

Indeed. So how about discussing why you think it isn't an example rather than edit warring?

Waiting on a TRS slot? Finishing off one of these cleaning efforts will usually open one up.

For starters, "it's unfortunate because he's black" is A) extremely indescriptive and makes absolutely no sense, and B) attracting natter as the previous edits showed.

Edited by AHundredandSixtyAcres

Throwing in my lot with A Hundredand Sixty Acres. Drawing a line between Jacob cheating and his race is more skeevy than how it was handled in the game, and that's saying something.

Just about every entry on all the ME 3 pages and all over the wiki are attracting Natter right now.

Waiting on a TRS slot? Finishing off one of these cleaning efforts will usually open one up.

Agreed with A Hundredand Sixty Acres here. I don't think Jacobs race has anything to do with his infidelity to Sheperd. There could have been a hundred different reasons for doing what he did. Not like he was thinking about it what with the his anti-cerberus activities going on. Probably assumed Shep was killed in the initial assault on earth.

Yeah Bioware made sorta a jerk move by not allowing anyone who started romance with Jacob (and as I understand it few did. He's the runner up for most bland human after Blandy Mc Gees tax accountant) but I doubt race had anything to do with it, intentionally or not.

The thing about Unfortunate Implications is that it doesn't have to be intentional to qualify. But since I'm getting agreement that it doesn't qualify unintentionally, I'll pull it to here for now.

• Unfortunate Implications: Assuming you romanced him as FemShep, Jacob (the only African-American squad member in the series) cheats on Shepard and gets another woman pregnant. He claims that he thought he'd never see Shepard again, despite the fact that she was detained on Earth, not dead, and he didn't even bother to try to contact her

Waiting on a TRS slot? Finishing off one of these cleaning efforts will usually open one up.

What does "it doesn't qualify unintentionally" mean?

Edited by KingZeal

It means that the people in this thread don't believe it to be an unintentional case of Unfortunate Implications. If you disagree with this, please do speak up.

Waiting on a TRS slot? Finishing off one of these cleaning efforts will usually open one up.

The entire point to "Unfortunate Implications" is that the parallels between a stereotype and the thing that happens are able to be implied. Look at the trope image. His race probably had nothing to do with why that particular image was chosen. It doesn't change the fact that when you add said race, it takes on a completely different meaning.

Edited by KingZeal

"Black men cheat more often" isn't a racial stereotype that I've heard before.

Waiting on a TRS slot? Finishing off one of these cleaning efforts will usually open one up.

1. http://www.ehow.com/facts_5589579_effects-rap-music-teen-society.html

2. http://www.helium.com/items/466363-why-do-people-think-that-african-american-men-cheat-more-than-white-men

3. http://commons.emich.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1299&context=theses

4. http://madamenoire.com/4667/how-black-men-view-baby-mamas/

5. http://mag.thelyfe.biz/2011/10/07/stereotypes-about-black-men/

6. Typing "Black men ch" in Google searchbar auto-filled: Black men cheat more. Typing the full phrase "White men cheat" turned up nothing.

Edited by KingZeal

Fair enough, that does seem to make it Unfortunate Implications.

How many male human character love interests are there?

Waiting on a TRS slot? Finishing off one of these cleaning efforts will usually open one up.

Three. Kaidan, Jacob, and Steve Cortez.

Kaiden Alenko (who is revealed as bi in the third game) is the only other one for Fem!Shep. It took him two years to get over Shepard when she was unquestionably dead in the second game and he had only recently begun dating, and only at the insistence of his friends.

Steve Cortez is another male human love interest for a gay male Shepard.

Edited by KingZeal

That weakens the case somewhat.

Waiting on a TRS slot? Finishing off one of these cleaning efforts will usually open one up.

Juxtapose him against Kaiden in my edit above, though. There's also the problem in that he got the woman he cheated with (and isn't married to) pregnant, and that his primary motivation is to be a better father than his was to him.

It Gets Worse when you consider that his father was one of the worst Complete Monsters in the series, having set up what was essentially a rape camp while he was marooned on a distant planet for over ten years.

Yeah, I get that all of these things are very "meh" on their own, but taken together? Holy crap.

Edited by KingZeal

Okay, how about this as a proposed re-write:

• Unfortunate Implications: Jacob, a love interest who is only available to the female Shepard, is also the only love interest who will cheat on you. While it was probably unintentional, he's also the only Black human love interest in both the male and female paths, supporting the racial stereotype that Black men are lusty and more prone to cheating.

Question: Do any of male!Shepard's love interests cheat on him?

Waiting on a TRS slot? Finishing off one of these cleaning efforts will usually open one up.

Thinking...thinking...thinking...Ash doesn't know if she can trust him, but will remain loyal if he is. Liara is fiercely devoted to any Shepard regardless. Miranda doesn't cheat on him. Jack still holds a candle for Shepard if he romanced her. Tali really does love Shepard and doesn't cheat. And Kelly was more of a fling, she doesn't cheat on him.

How about this line of thinking with Jacob: Dick move Bio Ware, dick move. Okay, I did say I would lay off them. I don't think it would have been a deliberate move to have Jacob cheat, but I have to say I would expect better than for them to put that out in the first place.

How about this for a rewrite?

Unfortunate Implications: Jacob, a love interest who is only available to the female Shepard, is also the only love interest who will cheat on you. While it was probably unintentional, he's also the only Black human love interest in both the male and female paths. Bio Ware have long shown to be rather intelligent throwing in lots of examples of Genius Bonus and Fridge Brilliance, if this wasn't a deliberate move to demonize race then it is rather unfortunate for Jacob to be portrayed this way.

Edited by tsstevens Currently reading up My Rule Fu Is Stronger than Yours

I think implying that it might have been intentional is going to be a natter magnet. Better to assume good faith, I think.

Waiting on a TRS slot? Finishing off one of these cleaning efforts will usually open one up.

I think the example itself would be trouble enough. It needs to be said though that Bio Ware really should know that this might cause trouble. I vote that we leave this out entirely.

Currently reading up My Rule Fu Is Stronger than Yours

I think your wording is fine, ccoa.

And no, I disagree with leaving it off. The trope was made for this sort of thing.

YMMV is YMMV for a reason. Simply removing the trope is not a mature response, and reeks of favoritism without acknowledging that there are some legitimate grievances leveled against the game. Naturally any finger pointing of Unfortunate Implications is going to be controversial, and some may even be Flame Bait. But the Rule Of Cautious Editing Judgement can applied here and hopefully invoking it will avoid edit wars.

With that said, people also have grievances with EDI's body being sex appeal taken to a blatant extreme, in addition to Tali's face being a simple photomanip, though the latter is already covered by They Just Didn't Care. Still there's something to be said that one of the biggest fan mysteries of the series was given a token nod at best.

Edited by Katana

Well, is the implications any more unfortunate than Bio Ware banning anyone who is critical of their work just as the game is to be released? I'd venture a racial issue is worth discussing and possible adding.

Currently reading up My Rule Fu Is Stronger than Yours

But YMMV tropes aren't simply a free-for-all tool for complaining. What unfortunate implications are there to Tali's face being a photo manip? They only had a bit of time to make it, a small scene only a few people would see wasn't given a lot of time, they used resources elsewhere? All that says is Bio Ware is a business with limited time and resources.

And as far as banning people—it depends. Is it legitimately provable? A lot of people have been lying about being banned by Bio Ware to cash in on the the EA hate train.

I used he comparison to say the idea of racism is an important one, more so than what someone on a web forum might do. But okay, can I prove people have been banned for criticizing the game? I never looked into it. Bringing in the policy when Mass Effect 3 is about to be released however, as opposed to, say, when there were problems with the Dragon Age writers being cyberbullied, that to me raises a few questions.

Currently reading up My Rule Fu Is Stronger than Yours

The policy was done about a week after she was bullied, which is also about a week before ME 3 was released. A policy that you can't be nasty to other people is hardly suspect.

In that case it would just be an unfortunate coincidence that the policy, which really these so called fans should be capable of following on general principle, was brought in when the game was going to be released.

Currently reading up My Rule Fu Is Stronger than Yours

It's not unfortunate. They are asking people to behave themselves. It may or may not have anything to do with the ending (but it also might have something to do with Hepler).

What are the bad implications of this? Bio Ware...wants people to behave?

Bio Ware bringing in a ZTP right before the game's release. If it is a reaction to recent cyber bullying then it is unfortunate timing in that it looks like it is to head off complaining about the endings. As it stands though really the developers are just the victims of sucky timing: of course people on their forum are to behave, it just sucks for them that this takes place right when the game is to be released.

Currently reading up My Rule Fu Is Stronger than Yours

And what are the unfortunate implications? What is bad about it? The timing is irrelevant.

What I was trying to say was how it looked like Bio Ware were trying to stamp out criticism of an upcoming game.

What are the implications of the Vogue magazine on the trope page? I wouldn't have picked it but someone did.

Currently reading up My Rule Fu Is Stronger than Yours

The rules are be civil. People aren't getting banned for criticism. You can't seriously be suggesting that there's something unfortunate about Bio Ware asking people to be civil.

Just the timing was unfortunate is all. I'm not stressed about it though, even if Bio Ware wanted to ban people for criticizing their games it's their forum.

Currently reading up My Rule Fu Is Stronger than Yours

"Effective immediately there is a zero tolerance policy on any form of abuse towards staff, moderators or other Community members."

This says nothing about banning people for criticizing their games. Reading the forums, there's plenty of criticism for everyone.

As I said the timing is unfortunate in how it can appear to some people. That's my opinion and I'm sticking to my guns on it.

Currently reading up My Rule Fu Is Stronger than Yours

After more than 18 months of stagnating, I'm going to add ccoa's proposed rewrite to the page. If anyone disagrees wih this move, please respond here.

Because the level has no combat and gives you 2 free Intel upgrades.

He's a Diabolus ex Machina that everyone hated. Not a Creator's Pet.

Yeah, no. The Krogan were pillaging the Galaxy. The whole reason information about the Turian moon of Menae is classified is because Krogan fleets were using moons to Colony Drop planets. The original dispute was over colonization rights. From that minor dispute to the near destruction of galactic civilization. The Turians chose the genophage because otherwise they would have had to commit genocide. There are indeed compelling reasons to keep it in place.

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."

First, the Council was happily granting the Krogan new planets and colonies the krogan. However, the krogan population was no longer being killed off by each other or by war, and because of their very high rate of birth and maturity, kept needing more and more planets. The Council eventually said they couldn't grant anymore, so the krogan began colonizing already-colonized planets. This turned to war.

The krogan genophage is not causing the literal extinction of their species. Krogan DO have children, and have continued to have them since the deployment of the genophage.

It's worth noting most krogan do not care about the survival of their species, only themselves. The reason they were dying out is because they were too busy killing each other to conserve life.

It's also worth noting that both Wrex and Mordin can be dead at this point, and Wreav is a complete tool whom you would not want to lead the krogan.

Edited by helterskelter

There is a moral justification for sabotaging the genophage cure. It's called "The Salarian Navy."

You're at war for the survival of an entire galaxy. It's up to Shepard to decide which would benefit the galaxy more: the navies of the Salarian Union, or the ground-pounding might of the krogan.

"Not to mention siding with the Dalatress involved murdering two of your closest allies and friends in cold blood, without a single hint of remorse."

Actually, if Wrex died in ME 1 and you told Mordin to destroy the cure data in ME 2, Mordin can be convinced to turn his back on the genophage cure.

Yeah. I'm not seeing the problem.

Throw my vote in too. Samantha is a minor supporting character. I don't see a problem here.

My Tumblr. Currently liveblogging Haruhi Suzumiya and revisiting Danganronpa V3.

The thing is that Samantha has more cutscenes and dialogue than many of the other ensemble darkhorses in the Mass Effect series. She is involved more into the main plot than someone like Engineer Adams or Dr. Chakwas yet somehow they are not considered to be Darkhorses (disregard their actual popularity for a second). While it could be argued that she is a darkhorse because she was only in one game, keep in mind it could have potentially be true for the characters debuted in the first game. I'll admit that maybe putting her as a main character could be stretching it in retrospect but I feel that her actions have put her past being a minor character who can potentially be forgotten but is not to a character that is not as involved to the story as the squad members but has enough screen-time to show that she is more than just a minor character, overall compared to Joker or Anderson in the first game, not enough to be considered super important to the plot but enough to know that she can comfortably be remember for a lot more stuff than just "I think she's cool".

That's my two-cents on this one. Agree or disagree if you want but if anything, I would at least wait until there are no more DL Cs released for ME 3 to put her as a darkhorse or not.

Edited by MrParadox

"yet somehow they are not considered to be Darkhorses (disregard their actual popularity for a second)."

No, that's actually completely relevant. Bringing up Chakwas and Adams is pointless, as they're not Darkhorses.

Mr Paradox, she is frankly a minor character. Of the minor characters, she has more dialogue and screentime than most, but she's still minor. She only has two or three conversations that I recall. She has all the relevance (but actually less of the dialogue, I think) of Kelly. She's more popular than some companions—like Samara, Vega, or Grunt.

I fail to see how she doesn't apply. I'm pretty sure Eve has more dialogue as well, but she's not as popular. I don't think you'd argue Eve wasn't a minor character. An important minor character, but not main or major.

"I would at least wait until there are no more DL Cs released for ME 3 to put her as a darkhorse or not."

That's silly. It could take a year or two for that to happen; maybe longer. If it just so happens she gets a lot of screentime in the DLC, then we'll still note by the first game, where she was minor, she was very popular. In fact, it would be her popularity that would presumably give her more screentime later. It's even noted in Ensemble Dark Horse this happens.

YMMV is most definitively not "everything goes". A Villain Sue needs to be improbably successful. Most of your arguments haven't anything to do with that.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

Reasons he is not a Villain Sue:

1. He has never successfully completed his missions through pure skill alone and the one he does complete (Thessia) he only won because he had backup.

2. A lot of characters in the game have made derogatory comments about Kai Leng, Thane practically stated that he should be embarrassed that a terminally ill drell manage to best him. If he was a Villain Sue, then everyone would praise him as a Worthy Opponent.

3. Bioware was well aware that he had a lot of Misaimed Fandom before Mass Effect 3 and it could be argued that they made him completely unlikable to counteract Draco in Leather Pants. It may have worked a little too well.

4. No one in the game has commented about his looks.

And your post has pretty much devolved to Complaining About Characters You Don't Like which is not what YMMV is about.

Edited by MrParadox

There is a gameplay element to Search and Rescue: while scanning, there's the possibility of being discovered by the Reapers, requiring you to escape before they capture you.

While its highly recommended to do Search and Rescue to get the best ending, you can also do multiplayer to get the best ending as well. Heck, if you promote characters enough times, you don't even have to touch multiplayer or do Search and Rescue anymore.

Including the Padding trope or is it valid? I rewrote a part of it so it can be more accurate.

Padding is questionable, because it's optional and not all of them need to be done. Is planet scanning in ME 2 included as padding? If it's not, I don't think search and rescue would qualify either.

For starters, I think we need to remove quite a few tropes that are just shoehorned in to say "some people didn't like the ending"; Contested Sequel, Ending Aversion, Shocking Swerve, and Writer Cop Out all whine about the same thing and simply come off as shoehorned in. Other than that, I think the links to ending bashers should be removed, as this site isn't for advertising people who didn't like a work of fiction.

I would agree with you. I rewrote parts of that trope as a compromise. I tried my best without getting a lot of backlash. Also, if you haven't posted on the Mass Effect clean-up forum, do so.

Also, would it be possible to compress these tropes and remove the objectable parts?

Edited by NordRonnoc

Are you going to do it or will anyone else, probably me, do it?

I can get to it. Shocking Swerve is really the only thing that needs to stay; Contested Sequel doesn't qualify when some people don't like only a specific part, Ending Aversion is just complaining, and Writer Cop Out doesn't apply as you do what you've been trying to do all along. The entry on the Ending Aversion page also needs to be rewritten, as it is quite inaccurate.

1. Ending Aversion is completely valid. Many people avoid playing the games because of endings - this is verifiable. That's the core of the trope. It's not "the endings suck", it's "people have heard the endings suck, and thus won't watch/play/read". I'm hard-pressed to find complaining in that.

2. There's nothing in Contested Sequel that limits it in the way that you're trying to. There is/was genuine dislike of the sequel, and it really doesn't matter if that dislike was valid or restricted to only one part of the work.

YMMV is the place for "negative" tropes. We allow them here so long as the bashing is not excessive. People who dislike(d) the ending are just as welcome to their opinion as those who liked it, so long as they keep it in check.

Edited by ccoa Waiting on a TRS slot? Finishing off one of these cleaning efforts will usually open one up.

The main problem with the game was the endgame, which was fixed with the Extended Cut DLC. I think Ending Aversion is more valid than Contested Sequel, since the latter trope applies to a fictional work in general and, before the Extended Cut, the majority of problems for Mass Effect 3 was the endgame. If we could compress or rewrite these tropes, or perhaps add in a counterpoint about the Extended Cut, then it could work. Thoughts?

Edited by NordRonnoc

I'll be deleting Contested Sequel. The Ending Aversion trope can stay, though with explaining why the original endings threw people off the series.

Edited by NordRonnoc

That would indeed be better than simply pulling them.

Waiting on a TRS slot? Finishing off one of these cleaning efforts will usually open one up.

I don't think Contested Sequel should be removed. There are people who don't like this game for reasons other than just the ending.

Also, I say that Padding is a valid trope; read the trope page itself. It says that a Fetch Quest is a form of padding, and Mass Effect 3 has a lot of fetch quests. Unlike 2, these aren't simply picked up in normal missions; you have to fly around the map to get them. And they aren't really optional; you need them for the best ending.

To some of you, "YMMV page" seems to mean "whatever I agree with page", and anything else is 'whining'.

Edited by CPFMfan ...

If no objections are presented in a few hours, I'll re-add those tropes, slightly rewritten.

Edited by CPFMfan ...

I would object against Contested Sequel because for one, the trope focuses on the fictional work in general by the majority of the fanbase, not just a minority. This kind of complaining and whining isn't any different from Mass Effect 2. Also, the Search and Rescue Missions is like planet scanning in ME 2 and they are optional. Look at Queen Of The Siren's second post for more information.

In short, I would suggest leaving it as it is.

Edited by NordRonnoc

Contested Sequel: Like I said, some people didn't care for it. That much is obvious by reading any online forum or review site. Mass Effect 2 is listed is a Contested Sequel even though the internet backdraft tied to it was much less extreme than this one, and that entry managed to be fairly civil and not call any one opinion stupid. I propose this be added as Contested Sequel: "Some people didn't care for the final entry of the series. While nearly everyone agrees that the game itself is amazing*

, many fans had problems with what was done with the characters and the plot- and not just the ending. Let's leave it at that."

Padding: Like I said, it's on the trope page. I also think they should be added because of the extremely small amount of effort it actually takes to make one of those sidequests. And while they aren't required, most people are going to do them anyway for the best ending.

Also, stop calling any opinion that's not yours 'whining'.

Edited by CPFMfan ...

"Contested Sequel: Like I said, some people didn't care for it."

If that's the case, then every single sequel to a fictional work should have this trope in YMMV.

Maybe it's a good idea to pull both Contested Sequel and Even Better Sequel since Mass Effect 3 is already on these trope pages. That applies with the former on Mass Effect 2.

Edited by NordRonnoc

That's not how it works. All examples should be on both the work's example page and the trope page. Not one or the other only.

You're continuing an edit war while telling other people they can't because it would be edit warring. Discussion pages exist to work these things out without edit warring, not continue the edit war while talking.

Edited by ccoa Waiting on a TRS slot? Finishing off one of these cleaning efforts will usually open one up.

All right, consider it dropped. I would like to say I'm sorry for the trouble I've caused, if that means anything to you.

Edited by NordRonnoc

I'v played both fights numerous times, and: he's a complete joke even on Insanity for me, and I'm not a good player. I have a few other people who can attest to this. He lacks several abilities of normal Phantoms, has dumber AI, is fought in a cramped space, has a weaker gun, never tries to take cover (unlike normal Phantoms), is more cowardly, and never, ever tries to use his One-Hit Kill. Even when he does (he never has for me, by the way), you can still Press X to Not Die, unlike normal Phantoms.

Also, as an experiment, I set the difficulty to Normal. I literally beat him by sitting behind cover and doing nothing.

Edited by CPFMfan ...

Okay, and? I already agreed he's a Breather Boss. I'm not asking whether he is one or not, I'm asking us to come up with a version of the text that we can agree on that doesn't sound like whining or bashing the character, because 99% of all entries regarding Kai Leng break down to bashing him, which is really annoying.

Okay then, tell me how the original text bashed his character:

"Breather Boss: Despite being built up as Shepard's equal and showing off impressive skills in cutscenes, Kai Leng himself is incredibly easy. He's mostly just a buffed-up Phantom, but he is fought in a cramped space, and lacks numerous abilities that Phantoms possess- including invisibility and a shield gauntlet. He also keeps his distance more than the more easily-killed Phantoms, and his gun doesn't do as much damage. In the final battle, it's really hard for him to actually kill you- his flunkies (including, ironically, two Phantoms) are a much bigger threat than he is."

...

Sedphiroth? Faith?

Currently reading up My Rule Fu Is Stronger than Yours

What about them?

I thought you were saying that a Draco in leather Pants character is not someone whose evilness is downplayed. Never mind, I read it more as Evil Is Cool and Ensemble Dark Horse.

Edited by tsstevens Currently reading up My Rule Fu Is Stronger than Yours

Draco in Leather Pants characters do not have to be well-liked; Sasuke of Naruto is one example of a character who has fans excuse his actions and a significant hatedom. Sometimes, the hatedom of such characters is in response to their status as a DILP.

But my point is that he's not liked, period. He has a tiny, tiny, tiny fan base and nothing about it implies that his fans are trying to downplay his evilness. There's no reason for that trope to be there, and it confuses me as to why it is...is it because he's the only attractive human bad guy in the entire series, making some people feel like he default must be a DILP?

It doesn't matter whether you think personally that the Synthesis ending has flaws. The game presents it as being without any. That's the only thing that matters to impartial description of the trope. You are welcome to disagree with Bioware's assessment, but that is their view on the matter.

Shepard get the option of telling the Catalyst that forcing evolution on the entire galaxy is morally wrong. How does that make it a flawless ending. And I have not seen anything that suggests that Bioware actually agrees with the Catalyst's views on the conflict between organics and synthetic.

Edited by lrrose

The epilogue tells you everything that you need to know about Bioware's attitudes to the Synthesis: absolutely everything works out, better than in any other ending. Shepard's (possible) opinion, put in to appease fans who dissapproved of the original endings, does not equal Bioware's opinion on the subject. Also, if Bioware does not consider Synthesis to be an ideal ending in your opinion, then the whole Writer On Board-trope is inappropriate, and should be removed entirely.

Here, at about 10:50 is where the flaw in Synthesis is mentioned.

We both agree that this is a case of Writer on Board. What we are arguing over is whether the Synthesis ending is presented as being flawless. Which, come to think of it, is little more than semantics.

How about:

• Writer on Board: The writers regard. the Synthesis ending a good deal more positively than the fanbase. It also results in the most unambigiously hopeful epilogue, implying eventual universal ascension into a Transhuman future.

Edited by lrrose

I am aware of what the Catalyst says in this ending, but it is not depicted having any kind of consequences. For whatever reason, Shepard's actions are not considered "forcing". Plenty of speculation can be made for why this is the case, but the epilogue does not give any sign of any kind of negative consequences.

What I'm pursuing here is impartial editing, something that I have had trouble with myself with this game, and am now trying to fix. I can see why Synthesis is a result of Writer On Board, but claiming that the game implies that this ending has just as much negative consequences as any other negates this trope. Either the ending is presented as ideal compared to the others, in which case the presumed flaws are simply Fridge Logic on the tropers' part, or the ending is implied to have flaws in the game itself, in which case such Fridge Logic has been taken into account, and it's not an ideal ending after all, negating the trope.

EDIT: I am not entirely happy with the new explanation either, since it implies that the fanbase is united in this opinion, which is not the case. I still consider it the simplest to explain that Synthesis is presented as being without any flaws by the game itself — this makes it Writer On Board, and does not negate the fact that players can still see negative effects in it. Those should be left for Fridge Horror, or some more appropriate trope, however.

Edited by Lightice

But the flaw is pointed out in the game itself. Besides, you yourself pointed out a second flaw, the fact that the ending requires Shepard's death.

Looking at Writer on Board's description, it looks like the trope is when the writers decide that they want to make a point and sacrifice the quality of their story telling to do so. The question is whether the writers actually believe that transhumanism is the only way to stop a war between people and AIs.

Okay: The Problem With Synthesis and Writer Bias, Virodhi edition (YMMV as all hell, I know. Also, spoilerrific, because tagging this would take forever):

Synthesis is presented as the "best" ending in fairly unambiguous terms: It is the last ending to unlock, and only becomes available at reasonably high EMS. Similar conditions are usually the benchmark for Earn Your Happy Ending in other games, including ME 2, where you had to work your ass off and pay attention to squad assignments in order to get the golden ending.

Shepard not getting out alive had been foreshadowed throughout the game. Hell, just look at the Death Seeker entry and similar on the character sheet. Shepard dying in any ending wouldn't have been a surprise, and I think most players were okay with it at that point. It would be a worthy sacrifice. So that sort of negates it as a flaw in the Synthesis ending.

So the problem becomes that Synthesis isn't depicted as having any inherent flaws. Destroy? You kill off the geth and EDI, along with some other ambiguity. Control? The Reapers are still around, no matter the assurances you get. Synthesis? You get to have your cake and eat it too. Nothing is made of the fact that there's all sort of ethical concerns about playing god, etc.

Ultimately, to someone who is not overly fond of it, the Syntehsis ending comes off thusly: It is introduced out of nowhere in the last ten minutes of the game. It fails biology so very, very hard. It requires...god, magic...whatever you want to call it to even make it work, whereas Mass Effect had until that point attempted to stay internally consistent and go for a "show, don't tell" approach to its science. And most damning: it's the only ending that needs the Catalyst to work (it being the god/magic component mentioned above). Destroy had been the goal since day one, and could concievably have been accomplished via "mundane" means. Control was introduced as an idea in ME 2 and could have been an offshoot of Destroy, or something the Illusive Man comes up with after researching the Reaper larva. Synthesis? Comes out of nowhere in the last ten minutes of the series, and hasn't been foreshadowed as possible or even desireable until that one moment at the eleventh hour. And it only works because the Catalyst (the Starchild form, which also shows up out of nowhere) almost literally handwaves it. So in a sense, the Catalyst is the avatar of messrs Hudson and Walters, and exists only as a way to shoehorn in Synthesis as the golden ending, whether it fits or not. It's bad storytelling.

Edited by Virodhi

I disagree on a number of points. There has been foreshadowing both to a driving force behind the Reapers, and to the possibility of an individual sacrificing themselves in order to bring greater understanding to the masses with Legion. Likewise, Shepard has, since ME2 embodied the potential for hybridization between synthetic and organic. I cannot see why Synthesis is any more "magical" than the Prothean Cipher, the rachni song, or many other elements in the story. It's meant to instill a sense of wonder to the player, which too much specific foreshadowing would have ruined; in this way it reminds of of the Lion-Turtle and Energybending from Avatar The Last Airbender, introduced in the last minute to profoundly change the implications of the ending, but subtly foreshadowed throughout the last season. It fits within the rules of the world however, as it utilizes the very heavily foreshadowed Chekhov's Gun, the Mass Relays, and its purpose is to bring understanding between different forms of life, something that Shepard has been doing since the day one. That it uses technology previously unseen in the series does not negate its thematic appropriateness, just like the previously unseed Energybending fits perfectly in the themes of AtLA.

Now whether Synthesis has negative implications or not is a more complex question. I can certainly see negative side-effects in the social sphere, and Shepard can indeed be seen as imposing his/her will upon all the lifeforms of the galaxy without their consent. The Catalyst does not seem to consider this forcing however, presumably because it sees Shepard as the emissary of all organic life — and not entirely without justification. To me these issues do not ruin the Synthesis ending, however, though not acknowledging these possible issues does make it a case of Writer On Board.

I also don't understand hate for the "starchild", something that is clearly extracted out of Shepard's nightmares. Plenty of people even in This Very Wiki predicted that the game would end to the interference of the god-like creator of the Reapers, but for some reason they couldn't stand this prediction coming true. We are even hinted that something above the Reapers controls the pattern in which the life in galaxy develops on Thessia.

For the record, I found the Lion Turtle and energybending to be an exercise in last minute asspulling too, so I guess it's just a matter of preference in storytelling. And that's okay. Agree to disagree, etc.

However: "I cannot see why Synthesis is any more "magical" than the Prothean Cipher, the rachni song, or many other elements in the story." Because it's described as "the next stage of evolution", which is ludicrous - evolution doesn't have stages, or even an ultimate goal. And until those last ten minutes, the "hybridization" of organic and synthetic in regards to Shepard has explicitly been an organic with machine bits tacked on: if he/she has kids, they won't be born as cyborgs. Yes, there are the Reapers, whose shells are at least made of liquified organics, but even then they're still software housed in a platform. New Reaper forms aren't born. They need to be built. At a glance, Synthesis is described as some weird Lamarckian deal with notions of machine dna and, if Joker and EDI getting all cuddly is to be taken at face value, honest-to-god reproduction. Without once getting into how, or the potential implications thereof.

So yes, most of my personal dislike of Synthesis comes from a reasonably hard science Sci-Fi universe suddenly having its golden ending hinging on the handwaving of some hardcore biology!fail.

I will cheerfully acknowledge your case for Writer on Board as being the more objective, and would like to boil my case down thusly: Synthesis is an example of Writer on Board, because all the other endings have their flaws clearly outlined (YMMV on whether it's a not-so-subtle attempt to steer you away from them), whereas Synthesis is presented as all positive without once outlining the potential issues.

Edited by Virodhi

I'm not entirely sold on Synthesis being Writer On Board according to the page's definition, verses it just being a case of bad writing and an attempt to justify it to those who hated the original version.

Edited by AbstractIndigo

There's no such trope. There's a No-Holds-Barred Beatdown, but reworking a trope is bad. We don't pretend a trope means something else just so we can put it down, especially if it's for something like complaining. Player Punch is another trope—and renaming it because you feel like this is an exceptional example is Fan Myopia, somewhat.

Edited by helterskelter

So all tropes that have a different name should be nuked? Is there some official word on this?

Currently reading up My Rule Fu Is Stronger than Yours

I think there are exceptions, like putting a character's name instead of just "he", but renaming a trope? You can ask Ask The Tropers if you wish.

It typically is fine in mainspace, but with YMMV it biases the entry towards a particular side, in my observations at least.

What is the context of the Player No Holds Barred Beatdown? If it's being used to suggest that the sheer quantity of Player Punches delivered in the narrative of this installment rival a No Holds Barred Beatdown, then it may well be a legitimate combination of the terms; as the final installment, ME 3 held nothing back and had one powerful moment after another, many of which had legitimate claims to Player Punch. But if it's just being used to say "I hated the ending, therefore I'm potholing this trope as an overdramatic way of saying that I feel like the developers deliberately antagonized their players," then it's just Complaining About Endings You Don't Like.

Edited by TobiasDrake My Tumblr. Currently liveblogging Haruhi Suzumiya and revisiting Danganronpa V3.

It's the former, believe me. I hate the endings, I do, but in regard to discussing the Player No Holds Barred Beatdown I'm referring to Shepard having to face charges because she had to wipe out hundreds of thousands of Batarians to stop the Reapers, the Reapers invade Earth, a little kid Shepard had been watching rejects the offer for help, Anderson remains on Earth, Shepard sees the kid killed, she meets up with a former allylove interest who is still sore about Cerberus, said LI is nearly killed, and Shepard is given the impossible task of getting Council aid before she starts having nightmares. That's in the first hour. It gets worse, I won't drop spoilers but that's what I'm talking about: Shepard's life in this game is shit and you get to wade through all of it, especially if you made some wrong decisions in the previous games.

Currently reading up My Rule Fu Is Stronger than Yours

The person vandalizing was continuously making sock puppets. It was locked in precaution against that. Go here if you think edits ought to be made to the page.

Is the vandal's IP able to be banned so he/she cannot edit anymore on TV Tropes? Or does this person's IP dynamically change?

Yes and yes, as far as I can gather.

That was the amazing part. Things just keep going.

He's using completely unrelated IPs and apparently has no life outside of declaring that everyone who didn't like the ending is an idiot and not a fan. So yeah, can't unlock these. That guy's a pain in the ass.

Edited by lu127 "If you aren't him, then you apparently got your brain from the same discount retailer, so..." - Fighteer

It's look like he's finally given up. Hopefully some time down the track we can unlock the pages.

Currently reading up My Rule Fu Is Stronger than Yours

^Let's give it a few days, shall we? Someone just hit Locked Pages again - I will pull the ME 3 entry from there and put it to discussion on the discussion page to see if we can avoid chronic vandalism.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

In case anyone's wondering if the few days are up yet, they aren't since he's just been at it again. I hope he stops for good soon.

That was the amazing part. Things just keep going.

Every night he sneaks into his secret compartment that holds his N7 armor and he cries himself to sleep into his life sized fem!Shepard doll, knowing he will never be worthy.

Currently reading up My Rule Fu Is Stronger than Yours

It's been several days, I've looked around and haven't found anymore vandalism, (the pages everyone mentioned) is this guy done, can we go back to reading, editing and having fun with this?

Given that he's been doing this in spurts for nearly a month, often taking a couple day's break. Also, he or someone like him was at it yesterday big-time, but that was just hitting random pages (~134 in total). We probably want to have at least two weeks free of him before unlocking.

Edited by Telcontar That was the amazing part. Things just keep going.

There's been a suggestion for a semi-protection lock for pages, and Fast Eddie said that he's working on something. When it's finished and implemented, the ME3 pages and other vandalized pages will probably go under semi-protection.

"Fine! If you're so enamored of that object, then I suggest you get your own feces analyzer."

While I don't dislike the final levels per se, I am rather disappointed that they didn't involve any sort of tactical application of resources and that War Assets were completely irrelevant to the combat situations there. And I believe there are people who share that opinion.

Edited by BornIn1142

Part of the issue is where and what do you determine the last level to be. Is it the entirety of Earth, or just the Citadel? General opinion seems to hold that every post meeting the Star Child is really the crux of the issue. The confrontation between TIM with Anderson has been mostly praised so that's about half of that portion of the level.

It really does just seem to be the ending. The description of the trope notes it's the entire last level, not just the ending being bad. Eh, I'd settle for it being a different trope.

Gainax Ending already covers people's misgivings.

New content, that is being expanded and clarified. Nothing is being "changed". But I wouldn't be surprised if we saw a sort of Retcon that doesn't overtly change anything you see.Like, say, a comic book placing a clone where the hero died in later issues—the events you saw happened as you saw them, but your perception was wrong because it was at the time written differently.