Discussion SuperWeight / Film

I'm taking out non film items from the Star Wars Film Super Weight entry. SW Legends stuff belongs mostly to Comics and Books.

I've memorialized the old kitchen sink entry here if someone later wants to fish out the Legends stuff and find a home for it.

• Star Wars/Star Wars Legends
  • Type 0: Padme Amidala while pregnant, Mon Mothma, the Separatist Council, most sentients without Force-sensitivity, C-3PO and most other droids.
  • Type 1: Han Solo, Mandalorians, Leia Organa, Padme Amidala. Rey prior to discovering the Force. All armies, be droids, Stormtroopers, or rebels.
  • Type 2: Jedi Younglings, sentients sensitive to The Force but without proper training in it (ex. Ephant Mon), Yuuzhan Vong, alien races with natural capabilities surpassing those of humans, Tauntauns, R2-D2, Banthas, Wampas, Rancors, Varactyls, Droidekas.
  • Type 3: Most named Jedi and Sith, the Nightsisters, basic starships (*-Wings, TI Es, the Millennium Falcon).
  • Type 4: Force Masters (Revan, Meetra Surik, Satele Shan, Darth Bane, Galen Marek, Yoda, Emperor Palpatine, Mother Talzin, Darth Vader whenever he manages to get some grasp of his true potential ^note Word of God puts him at 80 percent of the Emperor's power, even in his crippled state., Luke Skywalker in the Expanded Universe, Darth Krayt reborn), General Grievous^note depending on who's writing him that day, massive starships (i.e. Star Destroyers).
  • Type 5: Force Entities (Darth Nihilus, the Sith Emperor, Palpatine after he returns in Dark Empire, The Father, The Daughter, The Son, any Force-user who achieves Oneness), the Death Star, Zonama Sekot, the DarkStryder.
  • Type 6: The Celestials, Abeloth, The Force, The Dark Side, the Bedlam Spirits, Centerpoint Station, the Sun Crusher, the Starkiller Base.
  • Type 7: Possibly the Celestials, if everything Darth Plagueis hypothesized about them was true.

I made a videogames super weight entry for KOTOR, KOTORII and SWTOR.

Being on the same Type as another character/power does not make them equal.

The Types are focused on broad strokes and simplicity, which means that there's a LOT of difference between the weakest end of that Type and the strongest. For example, in Marvel Comics, a character who is able to destroy all of reality and all of existence across the entire multiverse (but can be killed) is on the same Type as someone who can destroy a single star.

So the answer is: no, the Starkiller Base is not as powerful as The Force, but that isn't how we're organizing things here.

Yeah no question. She is Type 4 easily.

Does "rule over" mean they can control it with direct power? If not, then no.

Hmm... that's a good point. However, Ursula also said "The sea and all its spoils bow to my power!" It seems like control over the ocean is implied. In the sequel (if that's canon), it's even more strongly implied, with statements like "All the power of the seven seas at my command!", "And all the creatures of the sea are in my power!" And apparently, Morgana could forcibly control all creatures "with fins".

Then I say it's close enough to fit, but add a note stating that this is an interpretation of their words. :)

... honestly, the entire MCU entry seems a bit inflated. Type 4 really should be a Person of Mass Destruction, but a lot of what is listed is more of a One-Man Army, which is (a high) 3.

One-Man Army is not a scaleable trope. It describes a plot element (defeating multiple opponents), which means nothing. You could be describing anything from Batman (Type 1) to Captain America (Type 2) to The Terminator (Type 3) to a freaking Gundam (Type 4).

It's like when Red Shirt used to be the measure of Type -1, which we eventually realized was inadequate because most Red Shirts are trained soldiers and not Muggles.

You can't scale something by plot significance.

I'm going to have to agree with Larkmarn, the MCU entry feels a bit inflated. Post-Thor Loki is considered to be a Type 4 when he isn't anywhere as close to the Person of Mass Destruction that Thor or the Hulk could be without using any outside weapons. And someone added Aldritch Killian as a Type 4 before when he only looks as strong as Savin or Pepper. INSIGHT Helicarriers here can devastate entire cities but they can't do something like World-Wrecking Wave if we're going by the main page. Plus, they can only target a certain number of people until they have to relocate and reload.

The ranking does not discriminate between someone using "outside weapons" and someone not doing so. Loki was in use of the Mind Gem in Avengers, which I'm assuming is why he was included there. Although, I agree, he didn't really use power on that scale.

One of the main problems with this page, though, is that people have different "triumphant examples" for a class. Both Thor and Hulk are on very extreme ends on the Type 4 scale, in my opinion. When we previously debated this, it was explained that a Type 3 was about the level of Spiderman while a Type 4 is a Flying Brick. Person of Mass Destruction is a good baseline for determining a Type 4, but the scale is stretched a lot wider than that. I take Type 4 to mean someone with powers that can, at its weakest, affect entire neighborhoods or city blocks and, at its strongest, cause significant damage to a biosphere.

Which brings me to the next problem: questions of scale and speed of effect.

INSIGHT Helicarriers, as we're told in the movie, are a global level threat. How many targets they're capable of at once is never stated. They are shown as capable of shooting thousands of people at once, or destroying what amounts to flying fortresses in a matter of seconds. How many times they need to reload or relocate is also never stated, as their targeting systems are done by satellite. We're never told that they need to relocate to destroy targets at all, and we see that ships located in Washington DC are capable of targeting people thousands of miles away.

The next issue is, at what point does speed of effect matter? For example, if a character is a Plague Master that can cause a worldwide pandemic in a matter of days, is he a Type 5, or is he a Type 4 because the speed of the effect isn't immediate? Not every power is explosive, and the scale as it currently exists isn't equipped to deal with splitting that hair. For another example, Ultron's Doomsday Machine uses physics to do most of the work for it. The actual machine itself only produces power that would be at Type 4 at best. The Type 5 stuff comes from the inherent chain reaction caused by a Colony Drop, not because the machine directly kills everyone, and those chain reactions are not immediate. Again, this is like our Plague Master example I mentioned before; if he causes a country-wide infection that clauses a extinction level event in days, is that Type 4 or Type 5? And then, if we're going by that, at one point, Superman destroys a large moon by flying through it and letting the momentum from that rip it apart. Is that Type 4 or Type 5?

This is what I mean: too many hairs to split if we're taking this too seriously.

I guess the final decision comes down to the amount of destruction the character can do in a certain amount of time. MCU Thor showed potential of being a Type 5 with his weather powers but he never showed levels close to his comic counterpart. If the INSIGHT Helicarriers can really wipe out more than a county the size of America with one go, then I guess it makes it a Type 5. But this brings me to this. Why are regular Helicarriers listed as Type 4s if they haven't showed firepower of that kind at all? Is it to compare with the INSIGHT Helicarriers? They have just functioned as regular flying aircraft carriers with standard battleship guns so far according to Ao U.

Also, Superman destroying the moon is a Type 5 feat, which makes sense because his true level is Type 5.

Right, but what I'm getting at is that there are things called "chain reactions" and "force multipliers". Superman (depending on the version) can destroy a planet-sized object, but the instance I'm talking about involved him causing chain reactions to do it for him. If we knew nothing else about the character, would that make him Type 4 or Type 5? It's hard to say, right?

As for regular Helicarriers, as I said before, Type 3 is stated to be at a level somewhere between Mr. Fantastic and Poison Ivy^note Well, most versions of her.. What makes a Type 3 isn't necessarily the amount of force they use; it's the fact that they possess a variety of powers and secondary powers. Type 4 characters are able to produce radical effects upon I'd say roughly an entire neighborhood or a few city blocks. A Hellicarrier, considering the mere size alone, could wipe out a city block or two just by ramming into them. And that's not getting into the onboard weapons and stuff like that.

Also, you unintentionally bring up another problem that came up in the previous TRS thread: not all powers are destructive, so we can't judge the scale strictly by that, either. Because this page is attractive to people with Small Reference Pools, it's really tempting and easy to always think of it in terms of physical gods fighting it out with megaton punches, wave motion beams and destructive blasts. But, there are far more uses of power besides that, including powers which are creative, or add things, without destroying anything else, and powers which perform non-physical effects such as telepathy or projection.

I forgot about that. I guess the power scale when it comes from types 2 and up comes from the amount of area a character can affect in a given amount of time. While I'll begrudgingly agree with the INSIGHT Helicarriers being Type 5, I wouldn't agree with a regular one being a Type 4 if the most destruction they can cause is if they crash into things like Boeing 747s. I'd consider them Type 3s though since they're like huge battleships.

While its unrelated to thr MCU, I had a harder time ranking the Bayformers since by the amount of destruction they can cause is more than Spider-Man but less than Superman.

"I wouldn't agree with a regular one being a Type 4 if the most destruction they can cause is if they crash into things like Boeing 747s. I'd consider them Type 3s though since they're like huge battleships."

Why?

Scale matters. Continuing to use Spider-man as the benchmark for a Type 3, Spider-man wouldn't be able to single-handedly construct, shield, or destroy a passenger jet nor a battleship. If either were alive, they'd be objectively tougher, more durable, more mobile, and possess more destructive force than Spider-man. Moving at their full speed with their mass and density behind it, they'd be able to destroy a few city blocks no problem.

And again, this scale is not merely about destruction. The longer we're stuck in that box, the more misunderstandings are going to arise.

Who-can-beat-who is not a good indicator of who belongs where on the list. Hulk beating Thor does not make Thor not a Type 4, for example.

The Chitauri soldiers I think can be bumped to Type 2 simply because we don't see them do anything that involves Combo Platter Powers or Functional Magic.

Iron Man, to me, is still a low-end Type 4, because he's still a person of Mass Destruction. If Tony wanted to, he could level an entire town. War Machine, likewise.

Thor is definitely a Type 4.

Hammeroids should be Type 3, not Type 4. Considerably less powerful than Iron Man and War Machine.

Also, remove Bifrost and Tesseract because they are objects/devices, not characters.

The list isn't about characters being stronger or weaker than others, and it's also not about characters versus objects. The Hammeroids are walking armories with various ballistic and artillery weapons capable of essentially being walking small-scale disasters. That qualifies them from Type 4.