Discussion Characters / MarvelCinematicUniverse

I agree

They’ve been re-added now that the first trailer of “Eternals” is out.

Personally, I don't have a problem with that, but Pepper doesn't have her own page.

Can we make a separate page for her?

We make separate pages when the character section gets is too long, this is not true for Pepper yet. But we can still move the Rescue Armor section to this page: MCU: Companies – Stark Industries

OK.

Done, we've actually had a parallel discussion about that on the old "New Avengers" page that has now been turned into a redirect.

I would say species is pretty useful for the alien characters.

Considering the fact that the MCU has plenty of characters of various species, I think we should keep it.

Considering the page isn't only about Myserio himself, but also about his team, shouldn't it be named "Mysterio's team" or something like that, instead of simply "Mysterio"?

I think you can add all that in the Nine Realms page, since there is already a section about Midgard (in other words, Earth) and its inhabitants (in other words, humans).

Current and Retired / Past Members?

I don't see any problem with the current page, it's not like Stark and Cap stopped being the Avengers. Also before P4 announcements it is unclear who is indeed retired. Thor is getting his 4th movie so does he count?

Actually, we don't know if Thor is getting a 4th movie, just that Waititi pitched one. Based on the ending of Endgame, I find it more likely he'll be in Vol. 3.

I think we should wait until Avengers: Endgame is released.

I would say no since we have gotten no confirmation that Fury and Hill are specifically working for S.H.I.E.L.D. in Far From Home yet. I would wait until either the film or Agents of Shield season 6 makes it clear if they are working independently or not.

I'd keep them. There are exceptions when some characters are Affably Evil or make a Heel–Face Turn, but in most cases the division is straightforward. Thanos is definitely a villain and leads a villainous organization (see the page about his forces).

Also, the MCU wiki divides all characters into heroes and villains, check:

• https://marvelcinematicuniverse.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Heroes
• https://marvelcinematicuniverse.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Villains

Then I think we should at least seperate by place, meaning villains from Earth, from the cosmos etc. It's quite inconsistent as of now, with Hela being listed under Nine Realms etc

Also, the headerson the respective pages need to be updated too whenever one moves characters

Well, Hela is not a part of a Villainous Organization, so "Other Individuals and Organizations" fits her. I see your point but I don't think that dividing characters into "Those from Earth" and "Cosmic one" instead of the current three major groups would be that beneficial (i.e. I'd rather see the Guardians grouped with the Avengers than the Guardians grouped with Thanos and Co). Not to mention that it would require extensive editing to change all the indexes.

I agree that some characters from the "Other Individuals and Organizations" section could be moved up to either of the first two sections though, but it is better to discuss on a case-by-case basis.

PS All characters with more than 25k characters of text written about them currently have a page.

Characters with pages or sections between 18k and 25k symbols in descending order:

There really need to be some sort of guideline about the limit for page length before splitting.

I'm really unsure here. Gamora is definitely a more major character than Yondu, but she has quite fewer characters of text... and with that argument we'd also have to make a separate page for Red Skull because he's got more characters than Yondu and that isn't necessarily imo.. yeah guidelines would be great here :D I tend towards making a separate page here but if it comes to depend on one vote I wouldn't really choose a side.

I don't see a need for it. If it is not comparable in size to character's who have their own pages, it wouldn't make sense to give her a separate page. It is unlikely to get bigger any time soon.

I'm on the fence about it. They won't be making more appearances, but their sections are indeed quite long.

Neither is Ego, yet he's got his own page. Does the amount of appearances matter versus how many tropes they embody and how long they are? I feel like they should have their own pages, especially since it would save space on the pages they're currently on.

This is why I'm undecided :) Let's wait for others to reply.

I'm kinda unsure as well, especially about Hela and Killmonger, since Ultron was an Avengers-villain, but since they are really quite long and Ego has his own I think it's alright for all of them to get their own as well!

I think there could be a page for supervillains in general that have a large presence in spite of limited screenitme. Should fit for all three you listed.

So are we in agreement?

I think [1] suggested creating a single page for all three of them, something like MCU Supervillains. I'd rather either keep them where they are or create a page for each of them to keep it consistent, tbh.

Yeah, I'd rather not make a page called "MCU Supervillains" where unrelated villains are grouped together. If Ego can get his own page, I don't see why the other three can't.

Ultron I could see getting a page simply because he doesn't fit in the grouping and was significant enough of a character.

Hela for now I'd say no. As awesome as she is, she just hasn't been prevalent enough, as Ragnarok wasnt even entirely focused on her. Same goes for Killmomger. They'd only get pushed if the page they are currently on gets too long

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe this is covered in Theres No Such Thing As Notability. Basically, if they embody enough tropes than they deserve a page if someone thinks so. It doesn't matter how "notable" or "significant" they actually are. This isn't Wikipedia. Given how long their pages are, I feel they should have a page.

That applies to a work in general. Wikipedia loves doing a lot of "this work has to have had a cultural significance" stuff, which is not the issue here.

There are priorities on which one gets a page first. They won't get a page just for the sake of getting a page, there has to be enough reason to split character pages into individual pages. If all of them fit on one page then they go in one page.

But it's not for the sake of giving them a page. It's because their entries are so large that they should get one. The way I see it is if that Ego can his own page, I see no reason why the others can't. It makes no sense to give Ego a page but then not give the others their own when they should ideally be judged by the same standard.

But not all of them need a page, or alternatively split the page into separate sections rather than one character per page. Well idk why Ego specifically got a page but for these one movie villains they don't really feel warranted to have one.

Splitting the character folder into separate sections still takes up space on the page they're on. Again, I feel like "they don't really warrant a page because they only appear in one movie" specifically goes against Theres No Such Thing As Notability where anything can be tropable and warrant a page if they have enough tropes to support it. I'll see what others think, because if Ego can get his page, there's absolutely no reason for why the others can't.

Then by that logic why don't we make one page per character from the beginning? Because it floods the site with unneeded pages.

No. We make pages for characters with enough tropes and space to justify occupying it. Ultron, Hela and Killmonger fit that criteria.

Do we have a word count limit for pages? If yes, what is it. Are the pages Ulton, Hela and Killmonger on over the limit? Would moving them elsewhere be the best fix for that?

I'm not sure the exact number is needed, but apparently 25k symbols is a good minimum. They each exceed that and even have more symbols than characters who do have their own pages.

If the page notifies that it's too big then of course we remove sections and split into new pages. But you keep bringing up the reason "because Ego has his own page", making it sound as though they are given pages just got the sake of it.

We might not be Wikipedia, but we're also not a wikia. Splitting up characters into individual pages is done as a last step.

I'm also for not splitting pages unless they are tagged as too long. There are already many pages for this franchise, it's daunting for the casual visitors to even find the one character they want to see. I would be, in fact, more for merging back one-character pages if they were split too early.

@Snowy 66

Because I have to keep pointing it out that saying "this character shouldn't get their own page, they're not significant enough" doesn't really hold up when Ego, a one-off character, does in fact have his own page. It's not because "I want it for the sake of it", but because they have a lot of tropes and symbols (as mentioned, more than others who do have their own page) that warrant it. I don't see the problem in giving people with large amount of tropes their page when they need it, it helps me find them easier if anything. It's clear as day navigating through the character page and besides, we also have an index.

Having all these pages was a natural result of the series its based on, nothing we can do there. We can't really cut down on pages when we its bursting at the seams with characters and more just keep getting added.

Well you can't use something that was done wrong as an example to justify more things being done wrong. I don't know why Ego's page got split, but that is not a good enough reason to warrant every Big Bad being split too.

If the size has become an issue then split the largest ones off until the page is within limits again. For now I'd say we're in agreement that Ultron can safely get his own page. If the page is still too large after that then Killmonger or whatever can be moved too.

This isn't a case of every Big Bad getting split, just the ones that embody enough tropes in their appearance to justify it. It's no different than the heroes getting their own pages, it just happens that way due to how Trope Overdosed the MCU is. And whoever said it was done wrong? Now I'm curious.

Well if common sense dictates the page is over or about to be over the limit then the largest ones get split into individual pages. I can't really give any other input aside from this.

Some statistics (I'm still on the fence myself):

• MCU: Asgard: 117 106 symbols without spaces, including Hela's section - 30 161
• MCU: Criminals & Terrorists: 159 148 symbols without spaces, including Ultron's secion - 31 662, Killmonger's secion - 34 632 (I'd argue this page needs a split).
• Size of four pages Avengers: Infinity War got split into: 57 162, 50 415, 26 859, 42 138.
• Mass Effect and Star Wars have quite a few individual character pages as well, we could use those for reference.

Some Star Wars character statistics: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/remarks.php?trope=Characters.StarWars#comment-113230

Ok, I've done some homework :) There are currently 84 MCU character pages: 47 of them are at least partially related to movies, 37 deal exclusively with other content. I checked those related to the movies only. Here is the list of pages in symbols as of today: https://imgur.com/a/GN8k2d2. I also checked all MCU movie pages, here is another list: https://imgur.com/a/X500DI3. It appears that 4 character pages potentially need a split (highlighted in red), and the 3 villains in question would solve the problem with two of those pages nicely, so I'm now in favor of creating 3 new pages - 1 for each of them. I would also propose to merge back two pages highlighted in green.

Alright sounds good. So I got the green light to make the pages for them then?

As soon as the majority agrees with the idea. I asked here as well: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=12911386090A37310100&page=66#comment-1646 and got the reply "100,000 text characters is likely too long".

Go ahead

I get a "404 not found" for those two Imgur link, I would have liked to see them.

But count me in the camp for "split if needed to reduce size", "merge back when still possible".

Try to copy these: https://imgur.com/a/X500DI3, https://imgur.com/a/GN8k2d2.

The following pages were created: MCU: Ultron, MCU: Hela, MCU: Erik Killmonger.

Weird, I can't get this thing to look well. Anyways, you get the gist I'm sure.

I think it wouldn't hurt, and MCU wikia has citizenship listed for most characters, so information can be copied from it.

I have to agree that streamlining these pages would be a good idea.

I'd be totally up for that, the only reason why it is the way it is now is because everything was one page once and got split when it got too long over time, but if someone only now created those pages, that's the way it have been organized from the beginning.

As the whole project is a trimming down of the pages, I approve. Pages like Hawkeye, which shouldn't have been split in the first place, certainly can be repatriated back.

Also, don't hesitate doing a bit of clean-up in the process, like with indentation, it's always a good opportunity.

This seems much more organic than the current structure. The only questions I have are whether Black Widow should be merged back to the Avengers page if Hawkeye is getting merged and whether Black Panther's page should be listed under the "Avengers and Allies" page.

I disagree with the "AOU Recruits" name ("New Avengers" is what's used in-film but we could go with something like "Recruits"), but I agree with pretty much everything else. I think it's preferable to keep things in-line with their in-universe name as opposed to going somewhat meta.

Also, I'm thinking that the characters could be listed on the "Avengers and Allies" page should have Hawkeye, Ant-Man, Sharon Carter, Erik Selvig, and Helen Cho, plus details on the Avengers as a collective team. Should be more than enough content for a single page.

@DustSnitch Black Widow's page is 19k symbols.. I don't have a strong opinion on that. As I've written below, there are 17 characters with pages longer than 25k symbols (and their list hasn't changed since 6 May), I would keep those. Now we also have 5 more individual pages that are shorter (Black Widow, Rocket, Drax, Yondu - 19-23k and Hawkeye - 12k). Hawkeye stands out, but I believe if the rest are to be merged back, the same decision should be made about all four of them.

@KingClark Upd Let's simply keep the "New Avengers" then.

I believe though that Sharon Carter should be moved to the SHIELD page, while Erik Selvig and Helen Cho - to Citizens (just like Jane Foster). They are not Avengers, and all heroic organisations are technically Avengers' allies. Not a reason to list minor characters on the Avenger's page.

Please see MCU: Avengers and Allies. Anyone willing to check the formatting?

Upd I moved three remaining characters to this page as well.

Yeah, good suggestion! Especially for Spider-Man, Black Panther and Strange since those are also main characters. But yeah, I vote to do it for all characters you suggested!

See MCU: Bucky Barnes, MCU: Spider-Man. Upd + MCU: Doctor Strange, MCU: Black Panther

I'm not quite sure if it is a good idea to split the Guardians though.

Upd Created by others as of 01 June 2018: MCU: Star-Lord, MCU: Ego the Living Planet. Mission completed )

MCU: Citizens - She's here

These are the main characters, or "most important" characters, and they are bold so that you can find them faster in the list.

Ah, ok. Thank you for the explanation.

i agree. that kind of stuff is uncalled for. Especially for movies with such intricate world building and international fanbase

Shall we revert the edits then?

Really late, but we can revert the edits if it's necessary.

I actually appreciate removing the species stat if characters are simply human. Most Writers Are Human, after all, so there's no reason to clutter character entries and bring these pages to breaking the character limit with something people will assume default.

I agree, I don't really see a reason to separate those into two pages. I'd vote to call it "Masters of the Mystic Arts".

Really late, but I'll get onto that.

Split it so the Peggy Carter characters are separate. Seperated by areas of New York. Or shows or movies they appear in.

If we mix it with the Kamar-Taj page I think it could work. I'd suggest it in the Repair Shop first though.

I strongly agree with this. The new arrangement is incredibly confusing and I think incredibly counter-intuitive considering the amount of individual series of movies and shows there are in the MCU.

Who made this decision anyway? A moderator?

I'm not entirely sure if it was a moderator, but the discussion thread about reorganizing things is here: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=1457851228077461700&page=1

Yeah, this page is a complete mess and an eyesore, with no indication as to which characters go where.

Yeah, I despise these changes too.

^^ How so? The page names give pretty clear indications as to what kind of characters go on each page, and notes are being added on the index that tells who goes where. This was a necessary switch since there are many characters now whose most prominent appearances are not in the movie/series they first appeared in and organizing them in such a way no longer made sense.

It's nice for the universe as a whole, really shitty for people trying to look at character sheets from individual works.

I really don't like the changes but my objections got outvoted.

honest find a single character in this caos is a challenge.

New subpages would help the articles to become less cumbersome. If the Council of Nine and the Chaste have their own page, why not The Hand or Leviathan?

I support this

I'll start on some Sandboxes now. Please let me know what changes should be made.

• S.H.I.E.L.D.
  • Team Coulson
• HYDRA
  • Project Centipede
• Strategic Scientific Reserve
• United States Government and Military
• The Howling Commandos
• Technology Companies
• Asgard
• Extraterrestrial Heroes
• Extraterrestrial Villians
• Other Superheroes
• Other Villains
• Unsorted Characters

It doesn't seem that anyone is interested. I'm still awaiting suggestions on how to improve the sandboxes.

The Guardians of the Galaxy should get their own page.

Let's say I'm a new person to the MCU, having only watched one film...

How the heck am I supposed to find a specific character?

^ That's easy. I'll unmark all of the spoilers up to Captain America: The Winter Soldier and Season 1 of Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D..

Look, we have many characters the cross over into other films or series (cough cough Howard Stark cough), and there are other film sheets with a similar design pattern to mine like Star Wars. In any case, these sheets are not meant to appeal to those who just started watching the movies.

^^ Did something similar by splitting the heroes and the villains while moving the non-affiliated to the Unsorted page.

I will put Gordon in Unsorted Characters for now. I will move him when more of his personality and alignment is revealed.

I think we should go back to the way things were. I find this new system highly confusing!

I am guessing the statement by James Gunn that they could appear elsewhere as well prompted it.

I never once heard that. In fact, I've heard the exact opposite, that he was put in as a joke and not to expect a lot from him.

And either way... I still don't see why that would get him on this page instead of the GOG one. I'm going to move it to the GOG page.

Main character page.

Iron Man and The Incredible Hulk don't, and neither do the many third party characters like Maria Hill or Nick Fury. Ax this page, and you lose a lot of useful info.

Ironically we have to split it now anyway, since it's over 500K and on the list of "big pages that need splitting", so it might be worth revisiting this matter. Should we just straight out split it, or should we move the tropes for each movie to their individual character sheets and keep this only for franchise-wide things like SHIELD and original characters from the One-Shots?

I don't see any problem with it.

Only if it gets too large. So far HYDRA's just appearing the First Avenger film and First Vengeance comic. SHIELD gets its own folder because there's many Agent characters. But there are only three HYDRA characters.

Yeah, the reason it wasn't complete in The Incredible Hulk was because Erskine never wrote down the formula before his death. Only Rogers ever got the complete version.

http://marvel.wikia.com/Johann_Schmidt_%28Earth-199999%29

Read here. It says here that he was taken away to make the serum, and so Red Skull took it when he was brought to him "to finish the serum". If you have any deliberate evidence otherwise in the film, fine, but say what that is first. Until then, saying it is unfinished seems less accurate.

...Um, "the unfinished serum made Schmidt stronger, however it also caused a combustion reaction that horribly scarred his face, disfiguring its appearance to that of a hideous red skull."

Hitler gave Erskine to Schmidt "to finish the serum", and Schmidt said "screw that" and took it before it was complete. Do you need stronger evidence? It seems weird to be so stuck on this one point.

Okay then, that's all I needed. I misread.

That still seems most appropriate. Loki may be an Avengers antagonist, but he is primarily a Thor villain.

I took off many of them. The tropes themselves are not supposed to be covered up and many of the spoilers were shown in trailers, are now examples of It Was His Sled, or simply did not spoil anything at all. Is it really that much of a spoiler that Thanos is played by some obscure actor?

And honestly, Thanos' name should not be a spoiler since his picture is clearly visible. Comic fans will come onto this page and instantly recognize him. For the average non-comic reader, they have no idea who Thanos is anyway so seeing his name spoils nothing.

Monster hunter from a family of them. A bit like Van Helsing (or maybe the Belmonts). Her dad is Ulysses, another Marvel character. She had her own series and she was in Nextwave, but she's fairly obscure, I think?