Character pronoun and identity discussion

Thanks

Though it seems that both "Board Girls" and Heather's character page already had been using Scare Quoted she/her pronouns before we gained consensus here

So that's convenience

Edited by AudioSpeaks2 on Feb 7th 2024 at 12:49:01 AM

I agree on Hanami specifically, but it's worth noting that Jujutsu Kaisen has other unresolved characters that come closer to that bar:

• Tengen (who I've brought up before) is a centuries-old former human who looks like an alien. Tengen is not referred to with gendered pronouns in the original, but the English translation uses he/him. But in both languages, Tengen corrects other characters whenever they are addressed with masculine terms, stating either that they have evolved beyond gender or that they are more like an old woman than an old man. Illustrations of them as a young human depict them as extremely feminine. If a movie featured a trans character who was exclusively misgendered, we probably wouldn't default to "the pronouns used for the character in the English version," even if the character never explicitly said "my pronouns are X." Still feel like that logic should apply here.
• Uraume is another centuries-old human, but they appear androgynous rather than alien-like. The manga has gone to lengths to keep their gender hidden. The first ~240 chapters of the manga (which I have read) and the official fanbook (which I have not read) either avoid pronouns (in the manga's case) or use they/them (in the fanbook's case). Recently, a single chapter's translation used she/her. Seems like a case of conflicting official interpretations?
• Kirara is a character with a very feminine-looking body and a feminine style. But photos of their younger self seem to present them as a boy, and one character repeatedly states that despite having a woman's name, Kirara is male. I might be wrong on this (I'll have to double-check), but I believe the official English translation never uses pronouns for them at all. Right now, our page has an entry for Ambiguous Gender and uses they/them.

Ive only read a little bit of the manga, so their might be more info about kirara that I don't know about, but I'll add some of the stuff that I have read.

So the character who definitely says they're a boy is panda(I only say them do this once). Some additional things to note about that.

Panda originally knew kirara back when they attended jujutsu high, which was awhile ago, and they where male presenting at the time.

It doesn't seem like panda had seen kirara in person recently at the time that he said this

Kirara wasnt present for this conversation, so they're thoughts on the matter arent known

Here's a character I'd like some input on; Balurga, the Harvin from Granblue Fantasy. They are AFAB, 'game mechanics' sex is listed as female, and the official English translation uses she/her the few times pronouns are used in the narration, but they very consistently and directly self-identify as a man and pursue manliness, to the point of giving up an arm to prove it and even after getting kicked out of their all-male gang. They have an androgynous physical presentation, receive chocolate on Valentine's Day and give it on White Day, hate being addressed as a woman, engage in 'contests of manliness', etc. How other characters address them is inconsistent, but from what I can tell the people trying to kill them emphasize that they are a woman and the people who aren't treat them as a bro and use he/him.

If someone more familiar with the series could chime in with additional context, that'd be helpful, and I dunno enough about Japanese pronouns to make a call there, but I think at the very least their gender identity is pretty clearly masculine. They might also warrant a Trans Tribulations mention, for the whole 'getting an arm eaten to join an all-male criminal family and later getting betrayed when they are outed'?

Edited by plaiceholda on Feb 8th 2024 at 1:25:28 PM

Haven't played it but from what you described, he/him seems most appropiate (despite the narration), especially considering most other characters also use he/him (except for enemies)

He/him/his sounds like the best option. EDIT: Granted, I'm unfamiliar with the work outside of what's been said.

Edited by RandomTroper123 on Feb 12th 2024 at 6:19:08 AM

I don't know enough to make a call on this one.

If the character identifies as a man, he/him pronouns and a Trans Tribulations entry noting he's frequently misgendered gets a vote for me.

Edited by Arawn999 on Feb 11th 2024 at 4:42:57 AM

Thanks for all the input. I've made the tentative changes on the character page: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Characters/GranblueFantasyHarvins. Does the wording look good? It's my first time really writing definitively about a trans character.

Anyways, in regards to the JJK characters, I'd advise sticking with they/them for Uraume and Kirara, as they are clearly intentionally androgynous and we're lacking any definitive statements by themselves or some third-person narration. Tengen seems like a classic case of localizers jumping the gun; by their own explanation either she/her or they/them would be more appropriate.

Edited by plaiceholda on Feb 11th 2024 at 7:29:05 AM

The localizers themselves support she/her/they/them?

No, I was referring to Tengen's explanation, from Chapter 202. The current official localizer, John Werry, appears to have blown up their social media pages, so good luck finding any statements from them.

If the localizers haven't said anything, this is a tough nut to crack.

based on the description above, I would agree with he/him, unless there's some additional information that contradicts it

Edited by Tremmor19 on Feb 13th 2024 at 3:20:45 PM

Is it safe to assume that Acht/Dedf1sh from Splatoon is nonbinary? They were introduced in promotional material for Splatoon 2: Octo Expansion with she/her pronouns, but the English localization of Splatoon 3: Side Order exclusively uses they/them pronouns for them, both in-game and in promotional material, and they use the personal pronoun boku in the Japanese script, which according to Acht's own Ambiguous Gender example, "can indicate a tomboy or gender non-conforming person".

It's worth noting that Splatoon 3 also uses they/them pronouns for Agent 3 and Eight (as well as the original Agent 3), but this is likely a case of Gender-Inclusive Writing. On the other hand, Acht stands out because they're a predefined NPC rather than a stand-in for the player, which means Nintendo's decision to use they/them pronouns for them might be an indication they're nonbinary.

Edited by GoosefromWikipedia on Feb 24th 2024 at 7:36:33 AM

If the actual game uses they/them then to they/them pronouns; the she/her could've just been a mistranslation or a leftover from a beta concept if it's only in promo material.

I've been meaning to comment on this for a while, but since Japanese first-person pronouns are being mentioned:

"Boku" is a mostly masculine pronoun and in Japanese fiction it's used by a large variety of character types. If they're not male ("Boku" is used by younger and less masculine male characters all the time), they can be tomboys to gender non-conforming female characters to non-binary characters too, so it's one of those situations where it's too hard to say for sure.

Bokukko is a trope, but all it means is that the pronoun is being used by a female character who isn't traditionally feminine. Basically pronouns used by female characters can be a bit of a scale of femininity, sometimes. "Watashi", the most common, is feminine. "Boku" is more on the masculine side. Occasionally you get female characters who use "Ore", one of the most masculine pronouns, but they're quite rare. Then there are others like "Uchi", "Jibun", "Watakushi", "Atashi", etc.

But the first-person pronouns a character uses for themselves really isn't an indicator of gender, because "Watashi" is used by men who speak formally, such as judges and priests and noblemen. So if you have someone use "Watashi", they can be a 15-year-old high school girl or a 50-year-old male politician. Similarly, "Boku" could be used by a 5-year-old boy or a 27-year-old woman. When it comes to non-binary and genderless characters, they can use literally anything.

Writers enjoy playing with first-person pronouns. Japanese fiction is, in my experience, almost always written in first-person, so you can easily conceal the narrator's gender if you want to.

TL;DR: First-person pronouns aren't a good indicator of character gender in Japanese fiction due to how liberal you can be with speech. Writers like being vague with them on purpose a lot, too.

(Disclaimer that this is just my opinion as someone who speaks Japanese and is somewhat familiar with the culture — though fictional characters definitely don't talk like real people do a lot of the time!)

Edited by Zazie122 on Feb 25th 2024 at 4:57:10 AM

Yeah Japanese pronouns are tricky like that

It sounds like we should go with they/them here if the English localization uses that.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Feb 24th 2024 at 10:46:44 AM

Indeed. I totally get why there's confusion over them and why people misunderstand how they're used, but I just wanted to throw in my own perspective. Honestly, I love the variety of first-person pronouns in languages like Japanese — it sucks that a lot of characterisation automatically gets lost in translation because things like pronouns and character speech patterns are impossible to translate into English. Even if you use something close (like for super formal speech or dialects), most of the nuance is lost. But that's nobody's fault in particular, it's just how language works. And in fiction, characters tend to speak in exaggerated ways, too, so it makes it trickier in my opinion.

Anyway, I'm not familiar with this character or series but they/them seems to be the best option if it's what's in the game. My guess, as someone else said above, is that she/her was just an early localisation for promo materials, and was changed to they/them somewhere along the line. Perhaps it'd be work mentioning in some kind of entry on the game's Trivia page? I'm not too sure though.

EDIT: If anyone's confused by the difference between "Boku" and "Ore", "Boku" tends to be used by male characters who aren't traditionally masculine and are seen as soft/gentle/delicate and whatever other traits (it also seems to be used by nerdy and socially awkward characters a lot too), whereas "Ore" is used by tough guys and manly men. Someone switching from "Boku" to "Ore" is a trope, and it's a sign the character is growing — either in age, or in maturity. "Ore" can be used by younger male characters (like the guy in my avatar, who's a teenager of some description) in an attempt to seem more mature and dominant (for lack of a better word) than they actually are.

Edited by Zazie122 on Feb 25th 2024 at 6:43:36 AM

I remember taking a Japanese class in university and we were strictly informed never to use pronouns other than watashi and atashi, so I've also seen it be used by people who aren't very fluent in Japanese—with native Japanese speakers making fun of them for coming across as stilted and overly formal... that is, when everyone isn't speaking super-fluent Japanese due to Translation Convention.

Getting back on topic, I don't recall whether Acht is referred to with feminine pronouns in Splatoon 2 itself, but even if so Splatoon 3 supersedes and retcons that portrayal. to they/them, though Acht being referred to as she/her in the second game should still be noted if only for posterity.

Edited by Arawn999 on Feb 25th 2024 at 10:32:00 AM

They/them/their for Acht/Dedf1sh sounds right to me

I added Acht/Dedf1sh to the header since we've had multiple posts in favor of they/them, plus this seems pretty clear-cut if that's what's used in their most recent appearance in the series.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Feb 26th 2024 at 10:01:10 AM

The pinned post says this thread decided on he/him pronouns for Yena Madaraba, but ~jmf6401 changed the pronouns to they/them on Characters.Seton Academy Join The Pack.

Just do a change the pronouns back to he/him. That's what the policy says.

Edited by AudioSpeaks2 on Mar 4th 2024 at 11:39:07 PM

Done. Can the tropes The Lad-ette and Lady Looks Like a Dude and the pothole to the defintion-only Ore Onna stay, or do they have to go since they're female-exclusive and we're treating Yena as a trans man?