I've decided to start a cleanup thread for Narm, since it seems to attract a lot of misuse and complaining. Like I said in my ATT post
, "some misuse is easy to catch (e.g. saying a joke is Narm when Narm by definition can't be a joke), a lot of examples fall into grey areas that seem like misuse but it's hard to tell. Like nitpicks that at first glance seem to be valid examples, but feel like stretches the more you think about them."
I think one of the main reasons for misuse is that most people aren't clear on what Narm actually is. To my understanding, it's when a scene is intended to be dramatic, but comes off as cheesy/funny unintentionally. But going by the page description, it's kind of vague what actually qualifies something as Narm. At the top, it says "Narm is a moment that is supposed to be serious, but due to either over-sappiness, poor execution, excessive Melodrama, or the sheer absurdity of the situation, the drama is lost to the point of surpassing "cheesy" and becoming unintentionally funny." But then later on in the same page, it gives a much more vague definition:
Most often, Narm is misused to mean "anything I personally don't think worked," whether or not it was intended as dramatic or comes off as funny. And when a work is high-profile enough, hoo boy, pretty much every scene is Narm to somebody. You can look at the Narm subpages for Doctor Who, Star Wars, and Game of Thrones and find tons of examples of people nitpicking the tiniest of details in a scene and blowing whatever it is out of proportion.
Another problem is that since it's such a subjective trope, it's not clear if there's supposed to be any sort of in-fandom consensus on the example in-question, or if every example is valid under the "it's called YMMV for a reason" excuse, even if the only person who thinks the example is Narm is the troper who adds it in.
I think it needs to be clearer whether nitpicks are valid examples of Narm, especially since nitpicking overlaps so often with barely-disguised complaining. The most frequent offenders for Narm entries I see are complaining, nitpicking, adding jokes, and ZeroContextExamples. I'm going to use Venom (2018) as an example, with my comments in bold:
- The scene of Eddie freaking out on the medical table is presented as the teaser's Money-Making Shot. It... doesn't quite work as intended, which isn't helped by it being sped up, making it look like a parody.
- The final trailer features a more complete version of the clip showing Venom's face "shutter" over Eddie. Whether or not this works or if it looks like a cheap special effect depends on who you ask.
- What makes the freakout even more narmful is that Eddie's screams are different screams playing on top of each other. The actual film lacks this strange effect. This example seems fine to me, but falls into the "The trailer is Narmy but the finished product isn't" doublespeak.
- The leaked trailer revealed some pretty terrible lines (“The guy you work for is an evil person.”). Tom Hardy's horrible New York...ish(?) accent isn't doing the delivery any favors either. And it really does not help that his voice cracks on the reading of "evil person". Thankfully, that line is not in the film proper. Do we keep examples that are purely in the trailers? Also an example of "thing falls flat" instead of "thing is funny."
- Hardy's line reading of "You're not real, you are just in my head." sounds like he's suffering from Elmuh Fudd Syndwome. At worst, he sounds like Adam Sandler's signature Manchild babbling. However there's some speculation that, based on the context of the scene and Eddie's stumbling movements, he's actually drunk, or perhaps even overdosed on medication (considering he was seen taking a bunch of pills, thinking he's sick). That and it could be a case of Reality Ensues, as it's unlikely anyone would keep the mental clarity to speak normally as an alien parasite is slowly bonding with their body. Natter. Goes back and forth between snarky complaints and defending the moment. Also nitpicking.
- Movie trailers cutting quotes out of context to form a new sentence is nothing new, but the editing on the line "you will only hurt bad people" is particularly poor, and it's very easy to hear that the line has been cut together out of separate pieces of dialogue. Not really a dramatic thing, so I don't think it counts as Narm. And it definitely isn't funny, it just falls flat.
- How Jenny Slate's character pronounces "symbiote" note . Plus, her giving firm, equal stress to all three syllables like she's speaking some foreign language. Luckily, this was cut from the theatrical release. Nitpicking and not funny.
- The shot of Eddie crashing straight through a half-fallen tree in the forest that he could just as easily have ducked under comes across as more comedic than cool, as if they just needed an additional gratuitous shot of something breaking. Especially if your mind goes to Victor from Wet Hot American Summer and his inexplicable refusal to jump over anything. It really does not help that the evil bad-guy vehicle chasing him looks like a slightly modified golf cart. The context for this one in the movie is that Venom is taking control of his body and forcing him to blindly flee through the woods to escape the Life Foundation. Context makes it not-Narm. Cut?
- Although it may look better in the context of the full scene, Eddie flying 50 feet into the air on his motorcycle off a slightly steep hill seems to rather severely break the laws of physics. Clearly written before the movie came out. Cut?
- The Jump Scare (on both sides of the fourth wall) where Venom suddenly shouts Eddie's name as he brushed his teeth would have been much more scary if not for the fact that the latter Screams Like a Little Girl. There's also the fact that he somehow throws himself backwards so hard that he crashes into the bathroom wall. Intended as comedic, so it isn't Narm.
- Remember how creepy and awesome that shot from the second trailer of the symbiote forming around Eddie's face in order to eat a guy was? In the third trailer, the potential Nightmare Fuel of that moment is significantly undercut by Venom slobbering all over the man's face with its tongue in an amusingly over-the-top manner. One is reminded of the scene with Patrick licking the yellow popsicle, or perhaps "This is the taste of a liar".... This seems pretty in-character for Venom. I'm not sure with this one.
- The guy who Carlton Drake subjects to Orifice Invasion in the third trailer would have been disturbing, if not for the victim's bland expression. Moment that falls flat; not funny. Cut.
- The symbiote's Venom-face forming on the end of Eddie's arm to talk to him strongly resembles a deranged hand puppet rather than a vicious alien parasite. There's also the fact that they can communicate telepathically, making that sequence unnecessary. Seems fine.
- Venom's violent threats to his enemies are this if they're not aggressively tasteless Black Comedy. His threat to mutilate a man until he's "like a turd on the wind" is particularly groan-inducing, especially coming after a genuinely frightening threat. How It Should Have Ended was even driven by this to make a video on just the trailer for the very first time, in which he mangles a bunch of other sayings. Pretty sure they are intended as comedy, so it's not Narm. Cut.
- The animation of the yellow symbiote just looks like mozzarella cheese come to life. Nitpick. Also... inaccurate? It's more of a mucus yellow.
- After Venom heals Eddie's broken legs, he flatly states "My legs! They were broken... and now they're not broken..."
- "My leg!" Seems fine to me.
- "HOSPITAL!!!! (extremely long pause) Now!" Zero-Context Example.
- Eddie and Anne quite casually discussing cannibalism as one of the symbiote's favorite activities. It's something that would probably sincerely shock and disgust the average person and likely require therapy, and yet it's bandied about like it's a pretty normal occurrence. These kinds of entries are tricky to me. They seem valid at first glance, but there's something off about them. I don't think this one counts if the work itself is treating the moment lightly.
- Any menace from Cletus Kasady is completely undercut by Woody Harrelson's truly ridiculous wig. A common comparison is that it causes him to look like a live-action Sideshow Bob, or a make-up-less Pennywise. Uses complainy word-choice. Otherwise fine.
- Kasady promising that there will be "carnage" after he gets out is so on-the-nose that it feels like it's straight out of a parody. First off, that's not an example of Anvilicious. Secondly, this verges on a nitpick to me. I'm not sure. It's not really funny, just lame.
- The final trade of words between Venom and Riot before the final battle is nothing but total Ham-to-Ham Combat - that and the two symbiotes happen to be Perpetual Smilers, which just gives off the feeling that they don't really give that much of a damn about their goals.
- Towards the end of the film, it's revealed that Venom used to be something of a loser on his home planet, like Eddie. This is his entire reason for wanting to save the Earth. Moment played as a joke, so it isn't Narm.
- Despite angrily forcing Eddie to spit out cooked meats because they're no longer living animals, the symbiote develops a taste for tater tots, and it practically demands that Eddie buy some during a conversation in the ending. The director admitted in an interview that the writers just thought it was funny and put it in the script. It unfortunately invites comparisons to a similar tots-focused scene in Napoleon Dynamite as a result. Entry admits it's a joke. So it isn't Narm.
- Drake having bonded with Riot is treated as a huge shocking twist going into the final battle... except for the fact that the audience was already well aware of it and saw the whole process. It feels very much like a consequence of Executive Meddling to give Riot more screentime. Another tricky example. Seems to fall under "scene doesn't work" instead of "scene is funny."
- Right after Eddie is separated from the symbiote, a rather obvious ADR overdub replaces the intended "fuck you" with the much less vicious "we're done". Not really funny, just falls flat.
- Eddie's "DRAKE! STOP!" sounds less like he's in pain and more like a little kid telling his Big Brother Bully to stop giving him a wedgie. Nitpicking. Most people wouldn't even pay this sequence any mind.
Another issue with Narm is the distinction between moments that are unintentionally funny on their own, and moments that are only unintentionally funny after Memetic Mutation or similar feat. Does the latter truly count as Narm? Because you can make the case that everything that has ever been made can fall under that.
Edited by MisterApes-a-lot on Mar 31st 2019 at 7:06:31 AM
Tobias/TJ (He/Him)
Not sure if this cleanup would be the right place to ask, but there are a few quotes on Quotes.Narm that I'd like to ask if we should have on there. Could I bring those up?
Cold turkey's getting stale. Tonight I'm eating crow.
Tobias/TJ (He/Him)
Alright — there are probably some more quotes on that page that don't really fit the trope, but these two stood out to me:
Neither of these really sound like Narm. The first sounds more like Unfortunate Implications if anything (and the quote admits that it runs on Fridge Logic, while Narm has to be accidentally funny in the moment — not to mention that I don't really see the humor in the supposed unintended meaning). The second is talking about Art-Style Dissonance, not a specific moment in a work. I've heard that Jack is pretty hard to take seriously due to how its art style clashes with the tone, but "the whole art style" is too general.
Also, I'm really not sure that we should be quoting Bad Webcomics Wiki, especially with links to the site (the original quotes on Quotes.Narm contained links to the site's reviews for the webcomics, but I've decided to remove the links in the above-quoted passage). Horrible.Webcomics has a commented-out note saying not to link to BWCW or other sites that primarily bash creators — if a So Bad, It's Horrible page doesn't allow it, I don't think that a main page should, either.
Should those quotes be removed from the page?
Cold turkey's getting stale. Tonight I'm eating crow.
I can't speak on whether we should use quotes from the Bad Webcomics Wiki, but I agree that the quotes seem to fit examples of misuse more than valid examples
The second quote also seems overly negative and snarky, which may not be a reason in itself to cut, but it does capture how a lot of tropers will write Narm entries and try to sound like their favorite snarky reviewer. I guess my point is that quotes like that encourage those sorts of overly-negative entries.
I agree with cutting both of those.
Tobias/TJ (He/Him)
I've cut them from the page with a citation.
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Yeah, the extreme negativity was one reason that quote stood out to me. I've seen some reviews from BWCW before, including the one for Jack, and it was just as bashy (to the point of including personal attacks on the author).
I agree that I've seen a lot of Reviews Are the Gospel and parroting what Caustic Critics say on this site, and Narm in particular seems to get a lot of that. I understand that Narm is a negative reaction, but... still.
Cold turkey's getting stale. Tonight I'm eating crow.
Mobile Suit Gundam SEED Freedom
- Narm: Stella's ghost appearing and transforming into a monster is meant to be played for horror but it felt so out of place in the realm of the Cosmic Era that it may seem unintentionally hilarious, especially with the Black Knights freaking out for trying to read Shinn's mind. That being said...
- Narm Charm: Stella's ghost is also entertaining precisely for those reasons and after the Blacks Knights have been unbearably smug the entire film, having her scare the shit out of them is very satisfying. Almost as satisfying as seeing Shinn kill them, even.
I assume the Narm should be cut if Charm applies, correct? (Narm was added by someone who made a bunch of problematic entries to the page, so there's that to consider.)
Astolfo my Man
Yes. The example was said to be cut if that applies to the page.
From Narm.Saw 3 D:
- All the drama put on Bobby's final test to save Joyce is practically a waste, considering that Joyce had no role in publishing or advertising Bobby's false story, nor did she have the most screentime in the flashbacks to it. Besides, the fact that Bobby had already failed to save Nina, Suzanne and Cale would make you give up hope that he can succeed for once, and he ends up failing anyway.
Seems more like Foregone Conclusion.
Edited by costanton11 on May 19th 2024 at 2:41:13 PM
Cut for being Fridge Logic-y misuse.
Cleaning up some entries on YMMV.The Dark Knight. Moving the valid ones to Narm.The Dark Knight Trilogy.
- Narm:
- Commissioner Gordon verges on this toward the finale with the Joker, wailing "I HAVE TO SAVE DENT!!", which is just a little bit too over the top. There are also some examples of the extras clearly not being in the same league as Bale, Ledger, Oldman and the assorted cast, which doesn't help when the Joker's final plot has scenes dealing heavily with them. Second sentence is too general and appears to be describing a regular, non-funny flaw.
- "Things are worse than ever!" ZCE
- When Dent screams the word "FAIR!" towards the end of the film, the CGI on his mouth opens a bit too wide. Special Effect Failure
- "No more dead cops!" ZCE
- "You brought this craziness on us!" Extra silly when the camera pans up to show Batman perched above her doorstep, listening in. ZCE
- Speaking of Mrs. Gordon, her inarticulate, heart-wrenching cry when Harvey puts a gun to her child's head is pretty effective. Her making the exact same noise again only a minute or so later... isn't. Can't tell from context, but I'll leave it.
- The cop riding shotgun with the disguised Gordon only speaks in clichés and Captain Obvious statements. Not a funny thing.
"Lower fifth? We'll be like turkeys on Thanksgiving down there?""That's what I'm talking about!""You can't stop here, we're like sitting ducks!""That's not good!" (In reference to a helicopter crashing into the street right in front of them)
- And of course, Christian Bale's "Batman voice", which can lead to odd pauses... in the middle... of a sentence, and the occasional inflection of a cartoon pirate. ("Someone KNOWS where 'e izzz!") Already covered on the Narm page for the trilogy.
- In general, the fact that the film constantly shows brutal acts of violence but without ever depicting any actual blood, possibly stretching the audience's Willing Suspension of Disbelief a little too far. General and regular flaw.
- Harvey Dent telling the guy who tried to shoot him that he should have brought an American gun is worthy of some eyerolls. You half expect him to yell "In America!" Not sure, so I'll leave it.
"Worthy of some eyerolls" is hardly Narm. Narm is supposed to be drama executed so poorly it becomes funny. I would cut the last one and the one with Mrs. Gordon's yell.
Neither says that they're inadvertently funny, theyre just complaining.
Alrighty, I've removed those entries as well.
- Narm: Intended to be deep but coming across condescending, multiple tired and cliched New Orleans references and phrases are used to trite effect. From Joseph Gordon Levitt rocking the Saints jersey the entire movie, to talking about "the people of New Orleans," it's a Hollywood-style pat on the shoulder that could cause a tad bit of cringing on the part of some locals/natives.
Dafuq does this even mean?
Astolfo my Man
I'm going to be honest this entry doesn't make sense when reading it. I am not sure what the point it's trying to make but if there are no objections it's a cut.
I don't want to brag or anything but when it comes to being the worst, I'm always at the top!
I'm gonna cut it.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]")
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]")
Automatic cut
I don't want to brag or anything but when it comes to being the worst, I'm always at the top!