On the subject of pre-release work pages

I didn't add First Town; it was in the original example.

• Arcadia: The setting of the First Town, with a bit of Steampunk thrown in. It's based on a small village in the UK, complete with windmills, rivers, and rolling fields of grass.

I had no idea calling the place the trainer's house is located First Town was speculation. Now that I do, I will remove it from the example.

Edited by Crossover-Enthusiast on Mar 1st 2019 at 10:29:54 AM

That works for that one example. But that page, and every other page like it, is full to the gills of stuff like that, and it's just plain not worth the effort to keep it clean. It's an uphill battle, and the nature of pre-release pages for highly-anticipated works means that they tend to attract the tropers with the least patience and self-control. The ones who are most prone to shoehorning in anything that looks like it might fit, and Edit War to keep it in there when it's cleaned out.

It's Why Fandom Can't Have Nice Things.

Which is why my proposed solution is to cut the example section, lock the page, and re-open it on release day when people can trope what's actually in the work instead of what pre-release hype leads them to imagine is in it.

There are, very rarely, tropes that really can be applied to pre-release works with a reasonable degree of certainty. For example, in Frozen II, it's very unlikely that there will be a title change before release, so Numbered Sequels almost certainly applies.

Let examples like that go through the Locked Pages thread. Requiring a little extra effort will help weed out the cruft.

The other option would be to strictly enforce the rule that is already on the books, which is that unpublished works don't get works pages. I think allowing a locked page with few to no examples is a good compromise.

Edited by HighCrate on Mar 1st 2019 at 7:09:45 AM

Well, what about a cleanup thread? We already have it for Complete Monster, Nightmare Fuel, Broken Base... Making a cleanup thread for unreleased works that everyone can participate in seems like a good idea.

And if the cleanup thread isn't viable for whatever reason, can Speculative Troping be edited to further specify what counts as speculation? I doubt anyone would immediately consider that calling the place the trainer lives in the First Town would be speculation without being informed of it beforehand.

Edited by Crossover-Enthusiast on Mar 1st 2019 at 10:20:42 AM

Complete Monster, Nightmare Fuel, et al won't fix themselves if you just leave them locked until people can actually watch the work.

There's a finite amount of labor available for cleanup projects like that. Why direct it to this when a lock will do the same job better with less effort?

Tell you what: why not both.

Do an Example Sectionectomy, lock the page. Start a thread to vet examples. Once an example has reached consensus on the cleanup thread, send it to the Locked Pages thread to actually get put on the page.

That way the mods (whose time and energy is limited) don't have to do all the vetting. And overeager tropers will have an extra incentive not to take the trouble of getting examples vetted unless they're really sure, instead of shoehorning in every little thing that might apply.

Edited by HighCrate on Mar 1st 2019 at 7:26:32 AM

This really seems like trying to find a solution to something that isn't actually a problem. Unreleased works occasionally show up on ATT. When that happens, they can be cleaned up; if that proves to be too much effort, they can be locked. After release, there may need to be minor edits to the page to fix things that were inaccurate in the trailer. It usually takes a day, maybe two. It's what has been happening for literal years and everything has been fine.

Darker and Edgier isn't on the Frozen II page any more—it's been gone since before this thread blew up. Because someone already noticed it as speculative troping and removed it.

It seems like everyone (including the people who initially did it) have agreed that moving a page to Advertising/ was a bad idea, so that's off the table. But I'm not seeing a need for any change at all. Even a dedicated cleanup thread feels unnecessary to me, but if it's enough to keep people happy, I won't say no to it.

The problem is that Frozen II, Toy Story 4, and Pokémon Sword and Shield are still full of Speculative Troping, even after this thread, multiple ATT threads, and multiple cleanups.

It's taken all that, and adjudicating multiple Edit Wars, to remove only the most egregious shoehorning. They're still bad.

Edited by HighCrate on Mar 1st 2019 at 7:34:44 AM

Will you please give SPECIFIC examples of what you consider speculative troping. Because you keep saying that, but there is nothing on those pages that is not explicitly in the trailers, giving the very strong impression that you believe trailers are never allowed to be troped, which is opposite of what has been done on this site for years. (note: I haven't seen the Toy Story 4 trailer, so I can't speak on that one)

Again, for years, the formula has been simple: People trope things from trailers. The movie comes out, a few minor mistakes are noticed, those mistakes are fixed within a couple days, and everyone moves on.

I have given two specific examples already, one from Frozen II, the other from Pokémon Sword and Shield. I have also given one specific example of a trope on Frozen II that I believe is valid.

Edited by HighCrate on Mar 1st 2019 at 7:45:24 AM

I'll object to the idea that First Town is an attempt at "troping the trailer".

It's indeed speculative, but it's an attempt at troping the game based on the trailer.

That's right, it's not troping the trailer. The trope is not present in the trailer.

It is Speculative Troping about the video game, which is against the rules. You can't trope the video game, because the video game isn't published yet.

Edited by HighCrate on Mar 1st 2019 at 7:54:59 AM

Arc Symbol is not speculative. It's misuse, because a logo is not an example of Arc Symbol. That has nothing to do with pre-release. I moved it to Iconic Logo with an edit note.

First Town was speculative, you're right. Barely, but still. And someone fixed it. Which is what happens on unreleased pages all the time.

Again, the only problem I'm seeing is "people need to keep an eye on these pages," and the solution is already in place: People keep an eye on these pages. If things get too crazy, they get locked. YMMV pages that cause problems get nuked. It's that simple.

Edited by Discar on Mar 1st 2019 at 8:06:47 AM

Having a Fridge page on Toy Story 4 is what landed me into this discussion in the first place.

The current YMMV.Toy Story 4 page as of typing (since it's on the Cut List), both folder'd for size:

Edited by Brainulator9 on Mar 1st 2019 at 11:13:18 AM

is there a timeline of what exactly happened that warranted the move? I missed the whole thing.

What happens "all the time" is that people engage in rampant Speculative Troping, it takes a disproportionate amount of effort (multiple ATT threads and Edit Wars) to clean up only the most egregious shoehorning, leaving behind a page that is still full of slightly-less-egregious misuse, shoehorning, and Speculative Troping.

All that trouble so that impatient tropers can indulge in a little hype? It's not worth it. Example Sectionectomy it and lock it until the work is released.

Edited by HighCrate on Mar 1st 2019 at 8:11:15 AM

Like I said, I haven't watched the Toy Story 4 trailer. But yes, the Fridge page should definitely be nuked, and I'm not liking the look of that YMMV page either. But as you said, it's already on the Cut List. The Funny/ page is also on there and probably doesn't need to be cut, but I won't fight about that too much if that's a necessary compromise.

You keep saying that with no evidence except an extremely broad definition of speculation. Plenty of people here keep an eye on unreleased works without any undue difficulty. If it does cause undue difficulty, it gets locked. This most recent discussion wasn't even caused by a real problem.

Edited by Discar on Mar 1st 2019 at 8:13:50 AM

I have given two specific examples of misuse / shoehorning / Speculative Troping / whatever you want to call it, and you agreed.

The rest of the pages are full of exactly that same sort of thing.

Edited by HighCrate on Mar 1st 2019 at 8:18:32 AM

And those examples were immediately fixed, because that's what happens on a page. Any page, unreleased or released.

The question here isn't "is there anything at all wrong with unreleased work pages that needs to be fixed?" The question is "is there anything that needs to be fixed worse than released work pages, to the point that major policy change is needed?" And there isn't. Unreleased pages require more of an eye for speculative troping, but that still happens on released pages, just with less frequency.

If any individual page does get more difficult than a released work, it gets locked. That's what happened with the Star Wars pages. It's what we've been doing for years.

The solution I've been pondering is leave the actual work pages as-is and cleanup speculation as it comes, locking on a case by case basis if it creates bigger issues, and lock the YMMVs and audience reaction pages because, in my own opinion going by the issues we've had with Captain Marvel (2019) (YMMV had to be cut because if drama and edit warring) and Avengers: Endgame (where the trailer spawned a crapton of speculativev tearjerkers), that's where the worst of the trouble we're having spawns from.

I have no issue with troping a trailer, per se. The trailer is part of the work and intended to be representative of it, so keeping an eye out for things like "Frozen II is Darker and Edgier" should be enough for all but the most wonk-inducing of works.

An "Unreleased Work Speculation Cleanup" thread, as suggested above, might be a good idea too. That way we have something specific to point to when we remove something for being speculative than just the Speculative Troping page.

Edited by sgamer82 on Mar 1st 2019 at 9:31:08 AM

Unreleased pages require more of an eye for speculative troping, but that still happens on released pages, just with less frequency.

Yes. That's why released pages shouldn't be locked, but unreleased pages for anticipated works like the ones under discussion in this thread should.

Also because pages for unreleased works tend to turn into pages for released works (thus requiring less oversight) with the passage of time, but the process seldom works the other way. Therefore nothing of value is lost by leaving them locked for a little while.

Edited by HighCrate on Mar 1st 2019 at 8:35:54 AM

You still haven't given a reason why this is a major problem that needs a policy change to fix. Yes, pages have problems. Literally every single page on the wiki has had problems. Most of the time, they are fixed with minor cleanup efforts that no one outside the page even notices.

While I still think this is unnecessary, it seems like a good compromise. Rather than bringing it up in ATT, whenever someone has a problem with an unreleased work, it gets brought up in the thread. Sort of like the "Get Help With English Thread," working through specific examples. Then if the thread decides it's bad enough, the page can be locked—or nuked, for subpages.

Edited by Discar on Mar 1st 2019 at 8:38:21 AM

Although the pages about unreleased works may cause some problems, think outside the box for a moment: they are one of the highest magnets of new readers, and potential new users. There's probably much more people out there searching pages about a work that is soon to be released, while the hype is still high, than people searching about works that have been released some time ago. If you want to avoid problems, lock the YMMV entry and do not include trope examples (add a disclaimer instead), but have a page about the work anyway. The WMG page is a valid page for unreleased works, and many things from the Trivia page may be also valid, for those who are following the aspect of the production of the work.

I made a google search for "Avengers endgame" (no extra terms or search configuration), the TV Tropes is at the 4º page of results. Are we really going to give up that, just because of an internal guideline?

I was gonna do this after I woke up, but y'know what, I'm gonna post Sword and Shield's examples now for all the thread to see which ones are actually speculation. This skips the Arcadia example because it's already been brought up. This list also doesn't include the commented out examples. My own thoughts are below the examples in bold.

For simplicity's side sake, here's the trailer, and here's the Nintendo Direct the trailer originates from.

With that out of the way, here we go:

• Breaking Old Trends: Galar is the first region not to have the letter "O" in it in English (if one doesn't consider any spinoff regions or the Sevii Islands from the post-game of Pokémon FireRed and LeafGreen, at least).

• The Bus Came Back:
  • After Let's Go Pikachu and Let's Go Eevee relegated itself to only Gen 1 Pokémon, the first trailer showed Pokémon from other Generations coming back into the fray (Including Minccino, Zweilous, Lucario, Munchlax, Flygon, Wailmer, Tyranitar, Hoothoot, Meowstic, Wishiwashi, Grubbin and more)! Whether this means they will all return is not yet confirmed.

• Gyms make a return, after the seventh generation games swapped them out for Island Trials.

• Random Encounters also make a return, after the Let's Go games made use of Pre-existing Encounters.

• Console Cameo: A Nintendo Switch can be seen in the protagonist's room.

• Crystal Landscape: One of the places that can be explored is an mineshaft Underground Level with gemstones scattered all around the walls.

• Don't Go Into the Woods: One of the areas of the games is a very ominous looking forest shrouded in fog.

• Establishing Character Moment: Rather than just simple images with descriptions, the three starters are instead introduced with a small video showing off their characterizations:
  • Scorbunny sprints onto the field first, skids to a halt complete with flaming streaks, poses for the camera boldly, and quickly springs off.
  • After that, Sobble sprays out the flames Scorbunny left behind, decloaks from its spot in the fountain, then hops out cautiously. It is then frightened off by...
  • Grookey, who strikes a rock with his stick a few times, causing the grass to regrow, then climbs a nearby chimney to survey the surrounding land from a high vantage point.

• Mythology Gag: One shot of the reveal trailer shows the player character entering a stadium, wearing a jersey with the number 227 on the back. February 27th is the date of both the release of Pokémon Red and Blue (in Japan) and the reveal trailer itself.

• Pointless Band-Aid: Scorbunny has yellow patches above its' nose and on its' feet that resemble bandages.

• Shout-Out: A blink-and-you'll-miss-it moment from the trailer showing off the stadiums shows that they have several fictional advertisements stringed along the boarder of them. One of them◊ bears a striking resemblence◊ to a fictional company from one of the most influenctual animes of the past several decades.

• Stealth Pun: The map shows the region to be very straight and narrow. Given the that the player's home is on the southern end, the protagonist is both figuratively and literally "working their way up" to become the Champion.

• Steampunk: There's one city in shown in the trailers that has this aesthetic, with rotating gears that let out steam and a general mechanical feel.

Edited by Crossover-Enthusiast on Mar 1st 2019 at 12:01:40 PM

Hence why I said to leave the work page up for inbounds.

Edited by Brainulator9 on Mar 1st 2019 at 12:00:52 PM

If pages for anticipated upcoming works are actually places where the site receives the greatest influx of new users, that strikes me as a good reason to make sure those are some of the best examples of how we do things, instead of one of the worst. A locked page with a carefully vetted example section (or none at all) seems like a much better way to do that than one full of rampant speculation.

But if it's seriously on the fourth page of search results? As someone who used to work in SEO, let me tell you, anything that's not on the first page might as well not exist.

Except they're not the worst pages. At all. They're perfectly fine pages that are causing no more problems than normal pages.

Our specific reasoning aside, it seems like we're coming around to making an "Unreleased Work Speculation Cleanup" thread. Do we need a crowner, or should we just start the thread?