Is this an example?

Thanks I will remove it. I may put it in Trope Finder to see if there is already something that could be used before trying TLP.

Reposting from the previous page, so it doesn't get lost:

From Characters.Sonic The Hedgehog 2020 under Sonic the Hedgehog, are the following two examples notable aversions:

• Adaptational Ugliness: Averted. In the first trailer, Sonic's realistic design has made him look downright hideous, and more like a bad bootleg version of himself. In the rest of the trailers and the actual movie, however, he looks much more like his video game counterpart, which was a result of fan backlash.
• Adaptation Dye-Job: Averted. His peach arms, stomach, and muzzle were initially blue, white, and white respectively. After the redesign, his colors are far more accurate to his game design: the only exception is that his arms are still blue, which even then actually heeds to his design in Sonic Boom.

And from the same page, should this example be allowed on the page - since it's troping a design that ultimately wasn't used in the final film and thus qualifies as What Could Have Been?

• Anthropomorphic Shift: Sonic was more humanoid looking than his normal Funny Animal appearance in the original promotional material. This extended to his teeth being more human-esque than usual and him having fingernail-esque claws on his non-gloved hands. Post-fandom backlash, and Paramount made him look far more cartoony and expressive to keep him closer to his origins, but still looks slightly more humanoid (having visible shoulders, smaller hands, a small-but-visible neck, and slightly-pronounced calf muscles).

WhirlRX: I've seen every episode of Steven Universe: Future and don't remember that. If it's from a leak, you can't add it until it airs.

I think it's from the episode that got released on the app.

Yes. It was a new episode that was released early. So is it an example of Visual Pun?

Reposting from the previous page:

Quick question about the Black Dude Dies First trope: Does it apply to a character who has dark skin in general? For example, in Sakura Wars (2019), Anastasia Palma, the sole member of the Flower Division who has dark skin, is the first of the main heroines to die onscreen at Yasha's hands in the penultimate chapter. However, it's subverted when she gets revived along with the rest of her comrades in the next chapter. Or would that count as misuse?

Also, in another repost from the same page, I would like to add a potential Face–Heel Turn entry regarding Future Rogue from Characters.Fairy Tail Criminals:

• Face–Heel Turn: Even though Rogue has struggled with his Superpowered Evil Side in both the prime and alternate timelines, he fights alongside Sting as one-half of the Twin Dragons in Saber Tooth. It is Frosch's death in the alternate X792 that led to Rogue Jumping Off the Slippery Slope into a Tragic Villain.

Does this count as a valid example or should it be rewritten?

Prime Rogue doesn't do the Heel turn. Though, it would apply to future Rogue.

Is it a Defied Trope if the narration points out that a character avoided 1-Dimensional Thinking because they're not a cartoon character, or is that just a lampshaded aversion?

The narration? No. The character(s) must reference the trope in dialog or otherwise indicate that they are aware of it.

A Troubled Production entry was added to the Trivia.Gen Lock page by a troper in October 2019. This was regarding a crunch period experienced by the Rooster Teeth animation studio, that a lot of animators publicly complained about afterwards.

I asked on this thread if crunch time was a legitimate example given how widespread the problem is in the animation industry. The consensus was that it's not the trope because it's an industry-wide problem. I therefore removed the trope, quoting the Is This An Example? thread in November 2019.

The same troper has added the entry back (reworded) citing as a reason the fact that other works list crunch time as a Troubled Production example, but they appear to have not sought any consensus for doing this. They've also vastly expanded the entry by creating multiple separate entries of new examples that come from the DVD Commentary. Their edit reason states:

The new entries can basically be summarised as: 'this special effect was hard to produce', 'the mecha suits had to be fully designed and finalised unusually early', 'one scene could only be designed on one specific computer', 'one episode was extremely stressful'.

As stand alone examples, these entries just seem like standard 'creators talk about the difficulties they have producing seasons and episodes'. Used as part of the crunch time entry, it just seems like excessive bullet pointing to justify re-adding something that was previously removed by consensus.

I asked on ATT, but wasn't able to get any advice. My questions are as follows:

• Is there an Edit War involved? If so, is the whole thing an Edit War or just the specific entry that directly mentions the crunch time?
• Is this one example that's been excessively over-bulleted or legitimately several different examples?
• Are the other entries valid examples of the trope in their own right even if the crunch time entry gets removed?
• In short, is there anything here that should be removed or kept?

The example in question:

• Troubled Production: The commentrary track has several frank discussions between the higher-ups in the animation crew about how rough the production cycle could be for the show:
  • The nanosmoke effect in general was a pain to work with. The composition and R&D teams had to effectively remake it for each individual use due to settings it was used in and due to having multiple different states, models and modes. Episodes were nanosmoke didn't need to be animated were generally far easier for the crew to work on.
  • Several design choices such as having the final versions of the Holon suits appear in the opening meant that they had to be made far ahead of when they were intended to be modelled in the production pipeline (RWBY specifically does the animation for its openings near the airdate of the season premiere so it has as much resources pre-made to avoid this where possible).
  • The extended flashback sequence in episode 6 included a particularly strenuous one-take shot that proved too much for many of the composition team's computers. Only one person (Kim Newman) had a rig powerful enough to run the entire scene while working on it.
  • Episode 6 was a rough experience for the crew. Video post supervisor Zane Rutledge acutely remembered the stress and anxiety he and the team went through making sure the episode landed given it was an extensive and heavy collection of fight scenes.
  • Several months after the season wrapped, additional news came out about the production of the series through Glassdoor that were later confirmed by several ex-employees and staffers, saying that production was in general a rough time for the crew. Crunch culture became predominant with most of the animation staff having to work eighty-hour weeks with unpaid overtime, resulting in a third of the season being effectively made for free. Multiple workers were brought in on unpaid 90 day temp contracts with the promise of a full-paying job upon completion, but were all unceremoniously let go instead. Gray stepped down as Head of Animation soon after the news broke, and later admitted to having left Rooster Teeth entirely.

Edited by Wyldchyld on Mar 25th 2020 at 10:22:52 AM

I don't think it's an edit war at this point, since the readded version is substantially different. Dispute, sure.

I was going to add this to Audience-Alienating Premise, but I don't know. It technically counts, (it's an album that, at the time, didn't do very well with fans because of its content and failed commercially), but the fact that it later went Platinum and became Vindicated by History makes me question it. Maybe its because the example reads as something that fits another trope?

• Weezer, following up from the success of the light and peppy Blue Album, released Pinkerton, a much darker, more personal record inspired by frontman Rivers Cuomo's Creator Breakdown. At the time, this drastic shift didn't sit well with fans nor critics and it sold poorly, resulting in the band going on hiatus for three years and taking a Lighter and Softer direction afterwards. However, the album later became a Cult Classic and critics eventually put it in higher regard, along with going Platinum twenty-two after release.

Is this really Numbered Sequels, or is it Idiosyncratic Episode Naming, or both?

I should also scrub "popular", in any case.

Edited by Malady on Mar 26th 2020 at 3:11:53 AM

That's And You Thought It Would Fail. If it's commercially successful, it didn't alienate audiences so can't be an Audience-Alienating Premise.

I have a question about Author's Saving Throw examples.

• Many fans objected to the ending of "A Friend In Deed", which destroyed its intended message that some people just won't respond to your pushing friendship on them by vindicating Pinkie for eventually winning him over through her unyielding determination. This episode makes the same message much clearer as Pinkie unwittingly threatens Maud and Starlight's budding friendship with her constant interference, the difference being that Pinkie takes it to heart once called out on her behavior. This is also a throw towards the very divisive "No Second Prances" by showing that Pinkie is 100% in the wrong for her actions breaking up the friendship with Starlight and Maud, unlike that episode where Trixie was in the wrong, but only because Twilight's paranoia and distrust got the better of her.
• It seems that the writers apparently agreed that there were too many redemptions. After Lampshade Hanging how many villains had been Easily Forgiven in the Season 7 finale, the final two seasons dialed the redemptions back. The only antagonists who were redeemed were Chancellor Neighsay, Ahuizotl, and Dr. Caballeron, who were Good All Along and/or Well Intentioned Extremists rather than outright villains. Outright villains instead now got actual punishments, such as turning Chrysalis, Cozy Glow, and Tirek into stone in the Grand Finale.

My impression is AST is retcons or additions to the contentious story things to fix them. So what's described here, a similar story with a more desirable handling/outcome, seems a misuse as it's not directly connected to and thus directly fixing the original contentious story.

The second part is controversial as several find it unfair they were punished after all the prior redemptions. I believe since YMMV can't be played with AST has to be widely viewed as successful, which given the drama surrounding that I don't think is the case. This likely wouldn't have been so controversial if they went back and did something to fix the criticized redemption (it worked great for Discord in season 4 and Sunset Shimmer in Rainbow Rocks) highlighting how their lack of redemption was deservingly punished, arguing ATS should only apply to direct fixes to the original contentious story.

Okay. Well, in that case, are the entries legitimate examples of Troubled Production? And how should the re-added crunch time issue be handled?

Edited by Wyldchyld on Mar 26th 2020 at 2:53:09 PM

This is some Adaptation Relationship Overhaul, right? It's talking about the Anime version of a Manga that doesn't mention its Anime version in its work description....

Disneyfication:

Edited by Malady on Mar 27th 2020 at 6:27:41 AM

Dont know how thats Disneyfication. But it does seem more like the other trope.

I was thinking of adding a Dork Age entry to YMMV.Animal Crossing. Does this check out? I haven’t included Animal Crossing: Pocket Camp because I wasn’t sure how well it was actually received.

• Dork Age: 2015 was one of the worst times to be an Animal Crossing fan, with the releases of Animal Crossing: Happy Home Designer and Animal Crossing: Amiibo Festival. The former was precieved as So Okay, It's Average for its lack of any real challenge, while the latter was critically panned for just being a slow, boring board game, and for not being a mainline Animal Crossing game for the Wii U. The franchise would not get another main game for another five years with Animal Crossing: New Horizons.

Edited by PlasmaPower on Mar 27th 2020 at 6:07:12 AM

Better this way:

• Dork Age: 2015 was one of the worst times to be an Animal Crossing fan, with the releases of Animal Crossing: Happy Home Designer and Animal Crossing: Amiibo Festival. The former was precieved as So Okay, It's Average for its perceived lack of any real challenge, while the latter was critically panned for its board-based gameplay and reliance on the amiibo, and for not being a mainline Animal Crossing game for the Wii U. The franchise would not get another main game for another five years with Animal Crossing: New Horizons.

For future reference, when adding YMMV examples based on audience reactions, always elaborate in a manner of reported or indirect speech based on the words of those who criticize or praise the work in quest. "For just being a slow, boring game" is you criticizing the game, regardless of how many people might agree with you, and is a sign of Complaining About Shows You Don't Like.

(Post edited for minor clarifications)

Edited by MyFinalEdits on Mar 27th 2020 at 8:35:51 AM

Honestly, it’s not so much me trying to complain, than it is me trying to figure out how to phrase everyone’s reactions to Amiibo Festival. I thought I had the gist of what everyone thought of it when I phrased it as “a slow and boring board game”.

Anyways, should I include mentions of Pocket Camp (a mobile game) and the Welcome Amiibo update in that entry? I’m not sure how they factored into the Dork Age, as the former dosent have a clear reception to it, and the latter is just an update to New Leaf, not an actual game release.

Edited by PlasmaPower on Mar 27th 2020 at 10:54:34 AM

Welcome Amiibo was pretty popular, despite being just an update.

If a One-Shot Character appears in the background as a cameo later in the series, but that's their only other appearance, are they still a one shot? Does it also still count if the character only shows up once but is mentioned a few times later?

• YMMV.Steven Universe Future: It's very difficult to watch the second half of the series where the trauma from past seasons catch up with Steven, and his sanity severely decays as a result.

Edited by Crossover-Enthusiast on Mar 27th 2020 at 11:35:03 AM

Does Keep Circulating the Tapes apply to dubs?

No. At least I don't think so.

Not unless those dubs are unavailable by any other method.