Inspired by this thread
, I've noticed that this wiki doesn't have a dedicated cleanup thread for negativity.
As we all know, Complaining About Shows You Don't Like, Creator Bashing and other negativity isn't desired on the wiki, except in a few selected areas like reviews and several Darth Wiki pages (and even then, with limitations). And yet, it's one of the most common sins wiki contributors can make.
So, if you find a page, TLP or discussion whose content seems like a straight-up insult or any other bitching - including complainy soapboxing -, you might ask here for help with removing said content.
The sandbox for this project is located at Works That Require Cleanup of Complaining.
Edited by MacronNotes on Apr 27th 2022 at 5:36:47 AM
Angry babby
You should do a wick check to show evidence of complaining. Personally I think Franchise Original Sin has value in recording fans' responses to the same perceived problem in different eras, but it's very hard to pull off an example without getting complainy.
Edited by mightymewtron on Oct 15th 2020 at 2:14:46 PM
I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.
Maintenance?
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Opened a wick check for Franchise Original Sin at Sandbox.Wick Check Original Sin. The target is 50 wicks.
Lost in Space
Chiming in here: We spend way too much time worrying about "fan responses". It seems to be taken for granted that every opinion fans have about something needs to be written down in a concrete form everywhere that work is mentioned, but that's just not true. There are lots of places for opinions: Metacritic, IMDB, Fandango, Steam reviews, etc. TV Tropes doesn't need to do it too.
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Maintenance?
How would you classify this wick?
- YMMV.Sponge Bob Square Pants S 2 E 20 Squid On Strike Sandy Sponge Bob And The Worm: This is one of the common pre-Movie episodes where Mr. Krabs showcases his Bad Boss traits, which became more expressed in the post-Movie episodes (he even fires his employees for striking, which is illegal... though maybe Bikini Bottom has different laws than the United States). At least he learned his lesson in the end (he didn't even deserve to have his restaurant ruined by that yellow dude).
Angry babby
I don't think Franchise Original Sin can be listed on individual episode pages anyway, since it refers to changes within the whole series.
Lost in Space
I don't get it. What page is it on? Bad Boss, sure — but then it wouldn't be YMMV. It's just stating a fact without indicating any subjectivity or fan response.
Edit: This is a Franchise Original Sin wick? The hell? It doesn't even state what's wrong with the episode that would make it qualify for that trope. If that's the level of quality we're talking about, it won't be missed.
I kind of thought that "Mr. Krabs is an asshole" was thoroughly established as a baseline expectation for the show, yet somehow people keep acting surprised when it happens.
Edited by Fighteer on Oct 15th 2020 at 2:32:48 PM
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Maintenance?
Okay, I'll file it as ZCE.
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
It's sad but true. My MEH wick check also had a ton of wicks in Main/. It made no sense at all, but it happened.
FWIW, I have been in favor of cutting Franchise Original Sin as long as I've known about it.
Now a lurker. Thanks for everything. | he/him
Well, you and the others here who have issue with the trope are in luck, because I and others are working on a wick check here. Feel free to help if you see bad examples.
Hello, I have a problem regarding a certain troper, Audrion. Recently, I ended up removing Draco in Leather Pants from the Udon section of Darkstalkers due to seeing it as complaining. I posted about it twice already, but no one answered my question, so I went ahead and removed it myself. Here is the example I removed:
- Dracoin Leather Pants: The comic book version of Morrigan, is defended by some readers who justify her actions as being nothing outright evil and instead just a succubus' nature. Even Udon's publishing director Matt Moylan, when asked about that version of Morrigan being evil on twitter, has attempted to justify it by saying she only behaves like succubi do, denying that she is evil. It does not help that even the writer seems to think the same, as in spite of all the awful things Morrigan does, not only she gets away with but she has a happy ending where she reunites with Lilith and becomes queen of the Makai world, ignoring that she's killed and screwed over many people without ever learning that what she was doing was wrong or being in any way stopped from killing more humans. The worst part? Is that some people (including the already mentioned Matt Moylan) don't even realize that's an unfaithful portrayal of Morrigan, and some even excuse her behavior as well with her being a succubus.
They readded the example but shortened it a bit. They also ended up pming me to not do this again to start an edit war and to look at Draco in Leather Pants again.
- Dracoin Leather Pants: The comic book version of Morrigan, is defended by some readers who justify her actions as being nothing outright evil and instead just a succubus' nature. Even Udon's publishing director Matt Moylan, when asked about that version of Morrigan being evil, has attempted to justify it by saying she only behaves like succubi do. This is denying that the comic book version of Morrigan shows genuine pleasure at killing people, a complete lack of empathy for anybody but her father and servants and commits some very heinous acts (tricking a man by pretending to be a homeless widow and killing an innocent woman brainwashed by Demitri).
The newer example is slightly better, but the problem is that Draco in Leather Pants is a fandom reaction, but the example they gave then goes into how the creators made Morrigan like that, which I find is more suitable for Trivia. I'm not denying that Morrigan is portrayed poorly in the comics, I'm just saying that this is a poor example as Udon!Morrigan is already added as The Scrappy and isn't a very popular depiction of her among fans.
They also added a this Harsher in Hindsight example for Marvel vs. Capcom: Infinite:
- This game is one of the few entries that portrays Morrigan as the friendly and anti-heroic succubus she is, and the game was announced during at the time when Udon's Street Fighter vs. Darkstalkers was releasing its issues. The fact that the crossover is a sequel to the Darkstalkers comics, which infamously portrays Morrigan as an evil and amoral succubus with no redemption through the events of the comics. It's sadly ironic, specially given how the game shows that Morrigan genuinely cares about humans not just as food or toys, even fighting Jedah to stop him from sacrificing more human souls. If this game's Morrigan had met the Udon Morrigan, she'd fight and would probably kill her in order to stop her from killing more innocent humans.
This doesn't really have anything to do with the game in question I don't think, and the last sentence is completely unnecessary.
What should I do? I have no intention of starting an edit war, but I also feel like they talk about how terrible Morrigan is in the comic far too much. Sorry if it feels like I'm the one complaining.
Redmess
Historical Hero Upgrade notes that Draco in Leather Pants also applies when fanfic writers turn a villain into a good character.
Anyway, I think the trope you are looking for is Adaptational Heroism.
Optimism is a duty.
Sorry, but I'm not sure what that means. The comic book version of Morrigan has Adaptational Villainy for a reason, due to her more evil actions like tricking a fisherman into letting her in so she could take his soul. The problem is that Audrion, the troper, emphasizes this whenever possible, regarding Darkstalkers. Not to mention they seemed rather rude when they edited the example back in.
Edited by ejmenendez on Oct 16th 2020 at 8:56:56 AM
Redmess
Sorry, I am not familiar with that work. I thought the issue was that the author did a Draco in Leather Pants of sorts with that character?
Optimism is a duty.
she/her
We should probably call in ~Audrion so they can discuss the edits.
Now a lurker. Thanks for everything. | he/him
So Undermined By Reality says on the page not to import internet drama. Yet there's an entire "Web Videos" folder:
- Channel Awesome:
- The site seemed to promote the feeling that the various producers were friends and worked well together — and while some producers had left or been removed years earlier, that feeling continued until 2018, when various ex-producers started leaving the site en masse and released a Google document detailing mismanagement, sexism, favoritism, hypocrisy, ignoring producers' concerns, and unsafe filming conditions by Mike Michaud and the Walker Brothers, as well as sexual misconduct by Mike Ellis and the late Justin "JewWario" Carmical. The site's response, which didn't include an apology and instead tried to attack the former producers, resulted in more exits, to the point that by April 13, 2018, only Brad Jones and Larry Bundy are left—and the latter openly admitted to only doing so out of spite for being ignored for a decade and to watch the whole thing go down, and the former's standing by and defending Walker and co. resulting in the destruction of his friendships with many of the people who left or were fired.
- The Nostalgia Critic editorial Doug Walker did on the nature of Shallow Parody is heavily undermined not just by Doug's tendency to do the exact same thing in his own reviews, but also the accusations that he purposely ignored the reviewers' own characters during the production of the anniversary movies in order to make them fit with his style of comedy. One video even features a "character from a movie appears and Doug says the title of a movie as if it's their name" scene that many commentators noted to be strikingly similar to Disaster Movie.
- As are the Critic's criticisms about cutaway gags, funny background characters, and scenes that go nowhere, particularly in shows like Doug, A Simple Wish, and The King and I, where he'll complain about said events either taking attention away from the plot, screeching it to a halt, or just being outright unnecessary. After the cancellation of Demo Reel he would begin to pepper his reviews with the exact same things in the form of skits before, after, and throughout his reviews, some of which can go on for as long as five full minutes.
- The very existence of Farewell, FamiKamen Rider, as Kaylyn Saucedo only learned about Carmical's history when composing the original Google document and has expressed regret over making a tribute movie for a predator. Likewise, Lewis Lovhaug expressed regret over moving up Gameboy #3 on the Atop the Fourth Wall schedule and doing that as a tribute to him as well, and he and Bennett White have stopped displaying the JewWario hats they had in honor of him. Many others, like Phelan Porteous, have taken to the Un-person approach, redoing the review to either replace Carmical with someone else, just simply remove him from them, or outright taking down videos he was a part of.
- In 2019, Rob Moor aka Cinematic Venom made a documentary, The Downfall of Channel Awesome, that detailed the events and supported ChangeTheChannel. It was endorsed and supported by several former contributors to the site. However, in the ensuing months, Moor would severely fall out with the movement, namely Eric Rodriguez aka The Blockbuster Buster and his wife Marsha and Holly Brown, accusing them of being no better than Channel Awesome. Having disavowed the movement, he later made a follow-up documentary The Downfall of Change the Channel.
- The site seemed to promote the feeling that the various producers were friends and worked well together — and while some producers had left or been removed years earlier, that feeling continued until 2018, when various ex-producers started leaving the site en masse and released a Google document
- Many of the messages in Sequelitis about game design and teaching the player rather than giving them obvious tutorials became undermined with Game Grumps, where Egoraptor is shown ignoring or dismissing tutorials constantly and then struggling to learn game mechanics to a memetic degree.note His criticism of The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time and how every enemy battle requires "waiting until they are vulnerable" is similarly undermined when you watch his playthrough and see how he utterly refuses to use most of Link's arsenal that are designed to circumvent this, like Deku Nuts that stun enemies or projectiles that hit them during the "wait" phase, showing that the issue is his gameplay style rather than anything inherently wrong with the game itself.
- During the Angry Video Game Nerd's review of Lightspan Adventures, he points this out when criticizing using Calamity Jane as a role model in an educational game for kids that teaches math, reading, and grammar:
Nerd: Calamity Jane? According to common history knowledge, she was an illiterate alcoholic prostitute. Really great role-model you dug up there, Lightspan!
- Max Gilardi, best known for his animated web shows such as PONY.MOV and Wacky Game Jokez, 4 Kidz!, portrayed Rarity as a racist using Mexican immigrants for slave labor in the PONY.MOV series, while clearly portraying her racism as wrong and having her get her just deserts for it in the end, and made a video defending The Simpsons character Apu Nahasapeemapetilon in light of the controversy of the character's accusation of being a racist stereotype. This was all well and good until it eventually came to light that Max was bigoted himself, having been reported to have made sexist remarks at conventions and come under fire for an incident where he poked fun at Steven Universe by drawing an Antisemitic caricature of the title character dubbed "Steven Jewniverse" and a comic strip where Steven told his love interest Connie that she was beautiful while drawing her with an exaggerated, beak-like nose, then responding to the backlash by drawing Steven Universe as a racist depiction of a black man.
- The Mysterious Mr. Enter is an animation reviewer known for criticizing various works of animation for, among other things, mean-spiritedness, bad morals, Unfortunate Implications, poor humor, and other forms of bad writing. This all becomes wholly ironic when his own idea for an animated series, Growing Around, is guilty of all of these things. Similarly, him condemning shows like Teen Titans Go! for mocking their critics ring hollow given Enter's own inability to handle criticism.
- Tribe Twelve of The Slender Man Mythos has an overarching theme that fighting fate is possible, but one has to be willing to commit to doing the things required to win no matter what, rather than running away and hiding from the problem at large. Come 2020 however, this moral seems especially ironic after series creator Adam Rosner's response to pedophilia and grooming accusations was to briefly disappear from the internet and to quietly rebrand himself without ever addressing said allegations.
Since all of it is complaining and drama, should I cut it?
TRS Queue | Works That Require Cleanup of Complaining | Troper Wall
Regarding the Darkstalkers thing, Audrion is already edit warring; it's add-delete-add or delete-add-delete.
Jawbreakers on sale for 99ยข
Welcome, traveller, welcome to Omsk
The The Angry Video Game Nerd example about Calamity Jane shouldn't be cut, since it's in-universe.
Everything else is pretty incendiary, I agree. The The Mysterious Mr. Enter example (second from bottom) is particularly bad: it barely makes a case, just says "all these bad things are in his web series."
Edited by DoktorvonEurotrash on Oct 16th 2020 at 1:13:01 AM
It does not matter who I am. What matters is, who will you become? - motto of Omsk Bird
Now a lurker. Thanks for everything. | he/him
Thanks, examples have been removed
I'm Sad Frogerson.
Wait, if web examples aren't allowed, shouldn't the page quote be removed too? It's about the Jew Wario drama, so should it be cut?
Wait how is the whole Jew Wario thing Undermined By Reality?
Edited by PlasmaPower on Oct 16th 2020 at 5:49:11 AM
Thomas fans needed! Come join me in the the show's cleanup thread!
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
Justin gave messages about being a kind and respectful person. He was anything but. Therefore, his actions contradicted the message of his show.
Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
Angry babby
More specifically, the quote is from Linkara's tribute to JW after his suicide where he praised him as a good person and all. Then allegations came out and Linkara disavowed him. Personally I think the quote should change if internet examples are disallowed (which I don't quite get since other media can have just as incendiary drama), it better fits Distanced from Current Events anyway.
I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.
Did we message Audrion to discuss the edits? According to the Crossover Enthusiast, and the Edit War page, they already started edit warring when they added back the Draco in Leather Pants example I deleted.
Laconic: "A problem with the franchise that was there before it became 'bad', but now lacks what first balanced it out." The description concurs with this usage. This is just complaining; I'll file a TRS thread. Can you come up with previous discussion on this trope, to reference in TRS?
I'm back!