During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Self-Declared King of Everything
Whose idea was it to adapt an old kids’ show into a horror film? How does that seem like a logical idea? What’s next, a horror movie based on The Flintstones?
Regardless, yes to Bingo.
Check out my current fanfiction project.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
. . . write that down, WRITE THAT DOWN!
Bingo to Shadow and Bingo. (lol)
Write-up done for Not-Marvel Thor, though I'm not sure if we need to reference the original films when writing for knockoffs...
- Almighty Thor: [The Asylum knockoff] The Mock Buster's take on Loki is far more sinister compared to the Marvel film, being depicted as an aeons-old Demon God banished by Odin centuries ago. Escaping from his Prison Dimension into Valhalla and seeking the Hammer of Invincibility, Loki massacres the guards in Odin's palace and unleashes his army of lindworms to devour the inhabitants of Valhalla, as he searches for the hammer, gleefully killing everyone that gets in his way. Challenged by Odin, Loki uses his illusion powers to trick Odin into killing his older son Baldir. and then kills Odin by stabbing him In the Back. After learning Thor and the Valkyrie Jarnsaxa had escaped to Los Angeles with the hammer, Loki follows Thor, unleashing a wave of destruction behind him as he orders his monster army to lay waste to LA, and then killing Jarnsaxa and casting Thor into Hell, before unleashing Ragnarok to destroy Earth and intending to do the same on every other world in his attempt at universal conquest.
Edited by RobertTYL on Nov 28th 2020 at 11:37:58 PM
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to Bingo.
We don’t need to reference the original films.
Woagh
Y'know what? I'm feeling swell.
What's the work?
The Joy of Creation: Reborn is a Five Nights At Freddys Fan Game created by Nikson, and is considered to be one of the scariest Fan Games made for it. In it, you play as Scott Cawthon himself, alongside his wife and child at one point, having to fend off what seem to be his own characters coming to life and attacking them after taking in a homeless man named Micheal Schmidt.
Alas, in true FNAF fashion, things are a lot more complicated than that.
Who is Creation?
Micheal is actually Creation, an evil spirit who seeks to take over Scotts body by killing him, being the leader/Creator of the Ignited Animatronics.
What does he do?
After taking in Micheal, their son, Nick, is attacked by strange monsters during a thunderstorm, attempting to drive the child to insanity. Thankfully (or so we think), Micheal is there to instruct him on how to avoid the monsters. Shortly afterwards, Scotts wife, Val, is attacked by them as well, complete with Micheal, once again, instructing her on what to do, with admitting that he's the reason they're here (He's not wrong at all).
Scott gets the worst of it, however, as he basically gets sent to a Eldritch Location version of his house and is psychologically tormented by the animatronics. The office level alone has a recorded tape from Scott himself, reveling he was stuck in there for what felt like days. Please note that the game takes place in the timespan of a night.
Eventually, he's captured and tied up in the attic, where the mastermind finally reveals himself: Micheal Schmidt himself. Or rather, what's possessing him. Y'see, the creature's (Named by the extras menu as "Creation") choice of wording, combined with some secret news clippings one can collect, heavily imply that he's a "Doppleganger", a spirit of sorts who steals peoples bodies, killing them. With this ability, he possesses a random hobo named Micheal, infiltrates the house, and attempts to steal Scotts body, with him purposely leaving out specifically why he's doing this. The closest thing we get is him describing possession as "Amazing" and wanting to keep it going forever, which doesn't paint a good picture of him.
As he attempts to get up to the attic, having the Animatronics attack Scott to impede him, the house suddenly catches fire. Scott attempts to escape, but is ultimately caught by Creation, with Scott begging him to at least spare his family. Creation seemingly complies, helping the family get out of the house and calling some firemen, but not after his family realize that something's wrong with Scott.
Now, the narrator of the story is a grown up Nick, who just got back to his old family house, repaired thanks to his landlord. In one of the aforementioned clippings, it reports that a man was just killed in his own recently repaired house, as reported by his landlord. Three guesses who was responsible for that.
So yeah, overall it's a pretty cheery game.
Redeeming Qualities
While he does help out Nick and Val as Micheal, giving them tips on how to survive, the fact that he was commanding the monsters in the first place makes it clear he doesn't mean it. And of corse, the whole "making a promise to Scott" shit was thrown out the window once it was all but outright stated that he killed Nick as an adult, presumably to posses him like he did to Scott.
He also never gives a reason why he wants Scott dead, mostly so he could have a psychological advantage of him. Again, it leaves us with the very selfish "I wanna feel good so die you moron lol".
Also, the game isn't clear if the Ignited Animatronics are his minions or him taking multiple forms, but it still leaves us with him either A. Having his minions kill a child and wife, or B. Killing them himself, none of which is gonna win you any respect.
Heinousness?
Simple. He's the only Animatronic with any sapience (If they aren't straight up him), and everyone else are unfortunate victims.
Final Thoughts?
What do you guys think?
Edited by DoodSlayer136 on Nov 28th 2020 at 9:35:07 AM
NOISE IS CALLING, PICK UP PHONE
Bingo... who is a thing for some ungodly reason.
to Creation as well
@Critica 7 I mean there was that Flintstones comic series where Fred and Barney committed genocide.
Edited by nwotyzal on Nov 28th 2020 at 9:34:20 AM
Shin Megami Tensei IV
『 』
to the Creation.
Bingo and Creation
to the Creation
Woagh
God, I'm just adding the weirdest villains to the forums.
Both an incomprehensible being hellbent on ruining lives for his own pleasure who should not exist, and Creation.
- Creation is a ghostly Doppelgänger who invades the home of Scott Cawthon, intending to steal his body through any means necessary. To this end, he possesses a hobo and exploits the Cawthon family's kindness to get in, at which point he has the Ignited Animatronics attack his wife and son. Meanwhile, he traps Scott in an Eldritch Location, psychologically torturing him mercilessly, at one point keeping him in a office for what seems like days. When confronted, he has Scott trapped in the attic, calmly explaining that he simply wants the sensation of feeling, while purposely avoiding explaining why he's after Scott specifically. As the house burns down, he ultimately manages to kill Scott, and while he promises to keep his family safe, an Easter egg reveals that he kills his son, nick, in the future, rendering the promise moot. While he talks with a friendly demeanor, Creation is ultimately nothing more than a selfish sadist.
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
You, sir, have earned my eternal respect.
Edited by DoodSlayer136 on Nov 28th 2020 at 11:33:31 AM
NOISE IS CALLING, PICK UP PHONE
to the Creatively Credited Creator's Customized Creation
Edited by RobertTYL on Nov 29th 2020 at 2:22:09 AM
to Creation.
I'll get around to doing Kurt's writeup as soon as I can. Still busy with schoolwork, trying my best to end this final semester on a high note.
Also, R.I.P. David Prowse. Shame years are considered real-life examples and lack agency, at that.
Edited by Stellarvore on Nov 29th 2020 at 2:56:47 PM
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Bingo and Creation.
Yes to Bingo and Creation.
There's an entry on the Witcher's CM page that has been bothering me for a while and I would like to talk about it. The candidate in question is the Reverend from the first games.
- The Reverend, the spiritual leader of Vizima's Outskirts, seems to be a fair, if slightly rude priest at first glance, but is actually a Knight Templar psychopath. He has his own pregnant daughter thrown out of the village for refusing to follow the psycho-cult religion he does, forcing her to become a prostitute just to get by, and tricks his own people into believing that the innocent, kindly mage Abigail is responsible for the recent rise in monster attacks, forming them into a howling lynch mob. He does this merely out of petty spite and prejudice. If Geralt (rightfully) prevents the lynching, even after saving the village from the monsters, the Reverend will try to have him killed, again purely out of petty spite. He doesn't fight Geralt himself first, but manipulates dozens of innocent villagers to attack, willing to sacrifice the lives of his own village just because Geralt hasn't let him murder an innocent woman.
Having played the game myself and reading this entry, it feels like there are a few small but important details wrong with it. Future more I'm not sure if his actions are heinous enough.
- Throwing out his own daughter: She was actually raped by one of the Reverends followers and became pregnant. I'm not sure if the Reverend knows this, but if he did it makes his actions even worse.
- Forming a lynch mob to kill the innocent, kindly mage Abigail: How innocent Abigail really is, is open for debate. She had no qualms selling poisons to the villagers. Which includes another rape victim, who uses the poison to commit suicide. The Reverend also seems to genuinely believe that Abigail is the one responsible for the recent Barghest attacks. His logic is flawed but he's trying to save the village. Sure, once Geralt has slain the Beast (the leader of the Barghest) the Reverend and his flock still attack him an Abgail but that can be “justified” by him not wanting Abgail to get away with her “crimes”.
- Doesn't fight Geralt himself first, but manipulates dozens of innocent villagers to attack, willing to sacrifice the lives of his own village: When Geralt sides with Abgail during the initial confrontation he's actually the first one who rushed forward and only flees after Geralt points his sword at his chest. He also personally leads the mob who attacks Geralt and Abgail after the Beast is slain. He may not care that some of his followers are dying in the fight but that makes him a Bad Boss and not a CM. He clearly believes that they can win against the Witcher and isn't deliberately sending them to their deaths.
- Finally he knows of the Salamandra's smuggling operations and may even know that they're kidnapping children but looks the other way.
To sum up his crimes: An attempted body count of 2 (the Protagonist and the women he thinks is behind the monster attacks), kicking out his pregnant daughter (possibly knowing that she was raped by one of his followers), possibly not caring about the lives of his followers and possibly ignoring the kidnapping of children.
In a standalone work, I could see him barley passing the heinous standard. But not in the Witcher universe, that's full of people committing horrible crimes. Therefore I suggest we cut the Reverend.
I find the arguments compelling. Cut the reverend
Edited by Silverblade2 on Nov 29th 2020 at 1:05:52 PM
Cut the reverend.
Goku Black
Cut the reverend. I think tier wise he'd stack badly against Rejk alone
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Bingo and Creation. Cut the reverend.
Enough about video games. Let's talk movies!
The Film in Question
Operation Delta Force is a 1997 Made-for-TV movie starring Ernie Hudson, Jeff Fahey and yet another villain-actor of 80s and 90s cinema, Joe Lara. Despite the title, the movie isn't related to the Chuck Norris Delta Force movie, and isn't a cash-in attempt either, considering the Norris picture is 11 years old when this movie came out. Yeah, an odd choice of title if you ask me, but anyway...
Ernie Hudson is Major Tipton, a former Delta Force leader who had resigned in shame after a mistake on his part leads to the death of his entire team. Now working for the UN's medical department as a consultant, Tipton is sent to retrieve samples of a newly-discovered strain of virus and its antidote in a UN Research facility in the South African outskirts. But while Tipton is in the base, a terrorist legion intending to hijack the virus for their own purpose decides to attack.
So, the Candidate for Tonight...
Colonel Johann Nash (Joe Lara) is the leader of a White Supremacist Terrorist Group based in Africa, working alongside a renegade South African General named Praetorian, who intends to hijack a deadly strain of highly-contagious virus and release it in major cities across the world, keeping the antidote to themselves to hold entire nations hostage.
Right at the start of the film, Nash and his terrorist legion launches an attack on the UN Research facility in the outskirts of South Africa, where the viral strain is being developed and Tipton is a consultant. Nash, leading his men to slaughter every UN personnel stationed outside the facility, demands for his minions to retrieve the viral samples and leave no survivors; Tipton barely escapes the carnage by hiding in an Air-Vent Passageway, where he witnessed several of Nash's men coralling a large number of staff, scientists and officers from the laboratory into a narrow corridor, before Nash personally machine-guns all the unarmed personnel with a sadistic smile on his face. One of the personnel, who is The Mole responsible for leaking information regarding the virus research to Nash and his men, eagerly awaits his reward, only for Nash to coldly shoot him by the end of the raid.
Tipton sneaks his way to the helipad of the facility, where Nash's transport helicopter is parked, just as Nash retrieves two metal vials from the lab - the strain of Ebola virus, and the antidote. Stealthily killing two guards outside the helicopter, Tipton leaks a fuel line, and blows up Nash's helicopter before Nash and his mooks can leave, without being spotted by any of Nash's henchmen. Without their transport, Nash had to find an alternative way out as Tipton tries radioing for help.
The US military responds by sending their elite army currently stationed in South Africa (and in fact had just completed a routine training exercise in Johannesburg just a day earlier), the titular Delta Force crew, led by Jeff Fahey's Captain Lang, who rendezvous with Tipton outside the destroyed facility; however, there is bad blood between Tipton and Lang, because years ago, Lang's brother used to be a member of Tipton's team, before a mistake from Tipton leads to his entire team, sans Tipton, being killed. However, they have no choice but to work together to stop Nash. Tracking Nash to a nearby train station, the Delta Force are met with the carnage of the station being filled with dead bodies, massacred by Nash and his terrorist squad when they hijacked a train to make their escape with the viral samples.
Lang, Tipton and co. managed to catch up with the train, slice the throats of a few terrorists stationed on top and infiltrate their way inside, where hundreds of innocent locals are held hostage by Nash and his mooks. A shootout ensues, and as the train reaches it's next stop, Nash immediately guns down hostages while using the crowd of fleeing civilains as cover, escaping into a nearby series of tunnels. The Delta Force, with Tipton in their ranks, tries to track down Nash, splitting into multiple teams going into several nearby villages.
Lang, Tipton, Lang's corporal McKinney and the team female commando Marie ends up in a rural village where Nash and his minions are waiting; turns out the terrorists have taken the whole village hostage, intending to lure the Delta Force into a trap. In the standoff that follows, Nash gleefully reveals he had strapped the vial of Ebola virus on a child he's using as a hostage, forcing Lang, Tipton and the rest of the commandoes to drop their weapons. Nash then leaves with half of his remaining mooks, with the virus and the antidote, telling one of his lieutenants to kill Lang, the other commandoes and everyone in the village and rendezvous with his crew at a nearby river.
Luckily, before that can happen, the other Delta Force arrives in a Big Damn Heroes moment, culminating in a massive shootout where the good guys are victorious, but suffering one casualty (the Delta Force's resident heart, Hutch). The good guys managed to catch up with Nash's forces at the river; in the middle of a lengthy shootout-slash-boat chase, one of the two terrorists carrying the vials of virus is hit and falls into the river, but Tipton managed to dive in and retrieve the vial. Unfortunately, Nash escapes with the second vial, which contains the viral antidote.
The Delta Force decide to have Captain Lang radio in for transport to send them back to the States, where they are informed their ride back home will take a few more days to arrive, but they can report to a nearby US-owned military base. Unfortunately, later the day, inspecting the retrieved vial of virus, Tipton realized there's a dent on it's surface, hit by a stray bullet during one of the many shootouts. There is indeed a leak, and now the virus has started spreading; a news montage following the hostage incident at the village now reveals that the entire village's population, numerous surrounding villages are infected with the virus, and it's getting out of control. Worse still, Tipton deduces that due to their proximity from carrying the virus vial, they - the ENTIRE Delta Force team - have been infected as well, and they will very likely be quarantined the moment they reached home in the States and succumb before a backup antidote can be found.
Nash, meanwhile, made it to General Preatorian, with the antidote. The terrorist members are likewise infected by the viral strain, and Nash intends to send his minions to cities across the world as carriers of the disease, spreading the viral strain as many times as they want, because they have the antidote and can re-infect themselves repeatedly to spread the virus to as many cities as they can. When news of the outbreak in the village reaches Nash, he gleefully declares it a success, because without the antidote, millions will die in the ensuing weeks - just as Nash wanted.
The Delta Force managed to infiltrate Nash and Praetorian's hideout near a harbour, with Lang spearheading the assault by blowing up fuel drums near the docks as Tipton, Marie, McKinney and the rest of the Delta squad goes in, shooting terrorists left and right. Tipton managed to subdue Praetorian and force him to give up the second vial - the viral antidote. Praetorian turns out to be merely Playing Possum - however, in a Stab the Scorpion moment, Lang fires at Tipton's direction and kills Praetorian instead, revealing that he had forgiven Tipton over the death of his brother. But Nash suddenly reveals himself, holding Marie as a hostage; declaring that he is aware of the viral outbreak, gloating over the deaths he had caused, and proceed to call Tipton all kinds of racist names, but Marie broke out of Nash's grasp, allowing Tipton to whip out a concealed pistol and shoot Nash dead.
To quote Ernie Hudson's Tipton:
- ”I’ve had just about enough of that kafir shit!”
In the aftermath of the film, the antidote allows for the viral outbreak to be contained, and for the Delta Force members to gradually recover. Tipton said he's still haunted over his bad decision causing the deaths of his old team, including Lang's brother, but Lang decide to forgive him as they made their way back to the States.
Any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse for Nash?
Nope, Nash's a terrorist leader who wants to wipe out entire nations with a virus simply For the Evulz (this trope gets thrown around a lot, really). His only justifications of attempting to wipe out entire populations is that "The World Needs Some Cleansing, in HIS Image". No Freudian Excuses either.
What About the Heinousness Standard?
He started the film launching a terrorist attack that massacres an entire UN Research Facility housing at least 50 staff, with Nash personally gunning down scores and scores of unarmed personnel gleefully. And he's not above using the entire population of a village as hostage, or killing dozens upon dozens of unarmed civilains.
Granted, his fellow partner-in-crime, General Praetorian, may be a Greater-Scope Villain who supplied Nash with weapons, mooks and transport, but for all he's worth Praetorian doesn't really have proper development and is a Flat Character at best. And Nash isn't just a minion, he's enjoying the carnage and atrocities he committed throughout the film.
Should We Count Johann Nash then?
As far as Terrorists Without a Cause (What's worse than that? Okay, how about White Supremacist Terrorists Without a Cause?) goes Nash's a keeper.
Edited by RobertTYL on Nov 29th 2020 at 9:22:36 PM
Nash.
I have no idea how I managed to get him approved.
Speaking of Hostile Animatronics, there's a certain popular fan game of a certain popular franchise I wanna check out in a bit...
And yes, unlike Funtime Freddy, he actually does something this time.
Edited by DoodSlayer136 on Nov 28th 2020 at 7:32:30 AM
NOISE IS CALLING, PICK UP PHONE