During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
With Megiddo cleared up, I have another Sentai villain to propose.
What is the work?
Choudenshi Bioman, the 8th entry in the Super Sentai series.
500 years ago, a Civil War erupted on the planet Bio Star that eventually led to its destruction. A robot named Peebo survived and came to Earth on a Humongous Mecha named Bio Robo, where it sprayed five people with Bio Particles to turn them into warriors to protect the planet.
In the present day, when an evil organization of Killer Robots from the South Pole, the Neo Empire Gear, attempts to conquer Earth, Peebo and Bio Robo awaken and find the descendants of the five people they sprayed in the past, giving them the power to become the Biomen in order to defend the planet from Gear.
Who is the villain?
Bio Hunter Silva, a Killer Robot programmed to exterminate anything with Bio Particles. Silva was created to be the trump card of the Anti-Bio Union, one of the two factions in the Civil War that destroyed the Bio Star in the past. Like Peebo, Silva also survived the planet's destruction and wandered the universe in his mecha, Balzion, searching for Bio Particles to exterminate as per his directive.
Eventually this leads him to Earth, where he enters the battle between the Biomen and Gear as a Wild Card fighting against both sides. Upon entering the planet, Silva became separated from Balzion due to the Earth's atmospheric pressure, and thus he seeks to recover his mecha so he can use it to destroy the Biomen.
How does he operate?
Silva is rather direct with his approach, if he sees something with Bio Particles he'll shoot it. At the same time, he's not single-minded and when put into more complicated situations he's capable of being quick on his feet. There are several times when the Gear lure Silva into a trap in order to capture him, but Silva always manages to elude them and escape through his combat skills and quick-thinking. In one particular instance early on, Silva discovers a trap set up for him by the Gear and deliberately falls into it so he'll be brought to their HQ, where he promptly breaks free and steals one of their mecha.
Silva is also shown to be capable of improvising and taking advantage of opportunities as they come up. When the Gear get to Balzion first and Farrah pilots it against the Bio Robo, Silva remotely takes control of Balzion to hold it place so the Biomen can kill Farrah, though she uses her last moments alive to return Balzion to Gear. Silva can also draft semi-complex plans, such as when he creates a robot copy of Prince (Big Bad Doctor Man's Overlord Jr.) to use him to infiltrate the Gear HQ and steal back Balzion.
Silva promptly pilots Balzion against the Bio Robo in a pretty epic battle, which the Biomen narrowly win. Even after Balzion is destroyed however, Silva exits the robot and attempts to pursue his mission on foot, only being stopped when the damage he sustained catches up to him.
Is he magnificent?
Definitely. Silva is sleek, cool and unwavering from his directive to eliminate all Bio Particles. He's quick on his feet and cunning when necessary, outmaneuvering both the Biomen and the Gear multiple times, and always ready for a fight. In fact, he's probably responsible for more members of Gear dying than the Biomen are.
Is he a bastard?
He played a role in the destruction of Bio Star, so he has a very high body count to his name. At the same time, there's no maliciousness to Silva's actions, he's just a robot following his programming, and while he doesn't care much for collateral, generally he only attacks people if they get in his way.
It's also hinted that Silva's directive might have some benevolent intentions behind it, since the stated the reason the Anti-Bio Union went to war with the Bio Union is because they feared the potential for Bio Particles to be used as weapons.
Final Verdict
He's more of a fighter than a schemer, perhaps moreso than you'd expect from a potential MB, but he's cunning enough and quick on his feet to the point where I'd say he's a worthy qualifier.
Just imagine something here.
Yes to Schneizal and Lloyd, Silva, and I'm gonna lean yes to Renfri as I see her deal with Stregobor as no different to Nahiri's vendetta against Sorin Markov and we agreed she counted.
I've been doing my own thinking on the Witcher and the more I think about Geralt the more I feel he's a perfect candidate. He's a skilled monster hunter that goes in Crazy-Prepared to take on his contracts, can rival Batman in his skill as a detective, and can quickly pick up on when he's being manipulated. He's also damn charismatic as anyone familiar with the books and games can attest, even if the latter did make him look much better. Finally, he can be quite the brutal anti-hero that will absolutely slaughter those that have no chance against him, as he's known as the Butcher of Blaviken for a reason, and can be incredibly callous to the plights of others. Lighty was gonna look into him, but I don't see anything that would be a blatant disqualifier.
Edited by LoreDeluxe on Sep 12th 2021 at 4:21:58 AM
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
Yes to Renfri and Silva.
Yeah, let me check on Geralt.
But to be fair, he's known as the Butcher of Blaviken for killing Renfri's men who were gonna slaughter the town, with nobody knowing the truth
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to Renfri, Silva, Lloyd and Schnizel (damn, we're gonna need a page for the Code Geass characters at this rate)
Goku Black
Renfiri and Bio Hunter Silvia (I love super sentai villain names btw. Like Absolute Hades God N.Ma or Hundred-Faced High Priest Chaos. Their so extravagant).
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Uh yeah I wouldn't use that. He sorta didn't have much choice in that matter....and then got unfairly blamed
Edited by miraculous on Sep 12th 2021 at 4:27:44 AM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
They are indeed. Sentai villains love their grandiose titles.
I suppose a better example would be the moment of his death in the books. Yeah, he was fighting a bunch of humans killing non-humans, but they were all farmers and such that posed no real threat to him. My point is that the bastard aspect is only real contentious one, but I think he is enough of an anti-hero to count there.
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
I think the best example is, responsible for the curse or not, Geralt literally uses a man as bait for a Striga, gets him killed and is pretty clear: No money, not his problem.
Ha! Class act, love that one.
Yeah, Geralt can be fucking cold when he wants to be. I'd see an EP for him. Yes to Silva too.
Edited by Riley1sCool on Sep 12th 2021 at 4:44:46 AM
Yes to Renfri and Silva. (Maybe I'll binge Bioman just for him lol)
I'm hoping to have a Kyouya Ootori EP done soon as well as Jianzhu from the Kyoshi book series. (They slap btw highly recommend)
Yes for Renfri and Silva.
Now I've got more Geass coming with Ravok, including reserving the upcoming show following the latest movie but I've got seven things to my name and the length of the batch is bugging me:
- Black Butler (2008 anime):
- This incarnation of Earl Ciel Phantomhive remains the steadfast young head of his house and the infamous Queen's Watchdog. Unfolding a plot that begins with drugs being placed in his company's toys, Ciel ends up infiltrating a zealous cult, brutally punishing criminals all along the way. Discovering a mad angel using the chaos to bring about the end and "purification" of London, Ciel has his demonic butler Sebastian kill it, calmly offering Sebastian his soul with their contract fulfilled. When the second season reveals Sebastian was unable to consume his soul he and Ciel join forces to dismantle the plots of the broken yet cruel Lord Alois Trancy and his own traitorous demonic butler Claude Faustas, outplaying their enemies once again before charging off after their next challenge.
- The demon going by "Sebastian Michaelis" remains Ciel's near-perfect servant. Battling through the forces of the first season's evil angel and seducing or otherwise overcoming its legions of followers, Sebastian maintains his trademark snark even under the angel's sadistic torture. Unleashing his true demonic form, Sebastian horrifies and devours the angel, saving all of London in the process. After failing to consume Ciel's soul the two work together once more, with Sebastian tricking and outplaying Alois' servants and faces down and bests the wicked demon Claude, earning his spot back as the demon to own Ciel's soul once more.
- Code Geass franchise:
- Original Anime:
- C.C. is an ancient, immortal girl who bestows Lelouch vi Britannia with Geass and becomes his most trusted subordinate. Far more level-headed than he, C.C. is able to discern the details of a trap laid by his antagonistic sister Cornelia and is the one to trick the Britannian forces while ensuring his escape. Showing herself to be a tactical Knightmare Frame pilot in her own right, C.C. even painfully gives her own life such that Lelouch may save his little sister Nunnally. Reviving, C.C. orchestrates the plot to return Lelouch's memories after they are sealed by his father Emperor Charles, going on to work with him and electing to abandon Charles' plot to merge all of humanity. After Charles is killed by Lelouch, C.C. works with him to enact his plot to unite the world's hatred unto himself, playing her role perfectly before accepting his death to move on with restored interest in living.
- Prince Schneizel el Britannia, the Prime Minister of the Holy Britannian Empire, is the only strategic match for his brother Lelouch. Seeking to force peace upon all of mankind, Schneizel operates with supposed loyalty to his father, winning countless battles for his nation while manipulating and recruiting subordinates for his own ends. By withholding key pieces of information, Schneizel even manages to wrestle away control of the Black Knights from the charismatic Lelouch's leadership to turn the tides of battle in his own favor. Arming his ship the Damocles with the destructive F.L.E.I.J.A. warheads, Schneizel aims to take it to orbit to force an end to conflict and even when beaten, Lelouch ensures he remain de facto leader of Britannia, knowing Schneizel's acumen will keep his sister safe as the new ruler.
- Emperor Charles zi Britannia, 98th Emperor of Britannia, presents as a fascist Social Darwinist who believes in a world where equality cannot exist. In truth, Charles' views were shaped growing up in the brutal, cutthroat court of Britannia until he and his twin brother V.V. outmanuevered their enemies to make Charles Emperor. Secretly researching the Geass and testing his many children, Charles utilizes his empire as little more than a distraction, placing his children in Japan to eventually gain access to the Sword of Akasha. Playing the entire world, Charles eventually sees his twin brother dead for his own betrayal and to seize immortality, intending to initiate the Ragnarok Connection and kill "God" itself to merge mankind into one single mind.
- Empress-Consort Marianne vi Britannia, aka "Marianne the Flash", is Charles' true love and a match for him in ruthless deception. Known for her immense piloting skill and iron will, Marianne was betrayed by V.V. who loathed her influence over his brother. Transferring her mind into the young girl Anya Stroud, Marianne remains dormant there, taking control as strategically necessary to deceive her enemies and even her own children to help Charles pull off the Ragnarok Connection and bring about the world both seek.
- Akito the Exiled:
- Ryo Sayama and Yukiya Naruse are a revolutionary leader and criminal hacker working to create a country for the lost and rejected. Luring a group of criminals to steal their Knightmare frame and kill them, the two nearly kidnap a high-ranking European Union general. Ostensibly working with the heroes, they make plans to betray and kill them before interest in their ideals leads Ryo and Yukiya to become true comrades to hero Akito Hyuga, willing to lay down their lives for him.
- Ravok's candidate
- Suzaku of the Counterattack: This version of Prince Schneizel li Britannia and Lloyd Asplund plot to use C.C. to turn Schneizel into a god and end conflict. Schneizel oversees multiple assassinations to cover his tracks while Lloyd manipulates Suzaku Kururugi into becoming the test pilot for their Lancelot system. Murdering his father the Emperor, Schneizel frames his brother Lelouch to come within a hair's breadth of victory before Suzaku kills him, while Lloyd merely congratulates their foe for beating them.
- Original Anime:
- The Man from Nowhere:
- Original film:
- Cha Tae-sik, "The Man from Nowhere" himself, is a brilliant former covert operative for the South Korean Army. Befriending the young girl So-mi, Tae-sik becomes ferociously protective of her, outwitting and brutalizing both the police and criminals when So-mi is taken by the evil Man-seok and Jong-seok. Discovering the depths of the Seoks' organ trafficking operation involving children, Tae-sik proceeds to utterly decimate their empire, destroying their laboratory and killing Jong-seok before charging to Man-seok's hideout and slaughtering his guards, executing Man-seok himself even while shaken by the belief that So-mi was killed.
- Lum Ramrowan is the taciturn and mysterious right-hand man to the brothers Man-seok and Jong-seok. An enforcer of their operation, Ramrowan assists in their rise to power and proves an exemplary opponent to Tae-sik when he seeks to recover the kidnapped So-mi. When given the order to send So-mi to the surgeon "500" to have her corneas harvested, Ramrowan instead kills 500 and passes his eyes as So-mi's to fool Man-seok and Tae-sik both, engaging the latter in a Duel to the Death before he can find So-mi is safe.
- Rocky Handsome (2016 Bollywood remake):
- Kabir Alawat, known as a soldier as "Rocky", now nicknamed "Handsome", is an unstoppable ex-special forces operative. When the child Naomi is captured by the evil Kevin and Luke Ferreria, Handsome works tirelessly to save her, massacring criminals and outwitting or even brutalizing cops, killing Luke and blowing up their meth lab. Even believing Naomi is dead Handsome kills the remaining villains including Kevin before being reunited with her, sharing one hug before calmly going to prison.
- The mysterious Attila is the noble, self-guided enforcer to the Ferreria brothers. Deeming Handsome a worthy adversary, Attila is also such an expert operative able to track a wealthy fleeing mob boss and the only fighter intelligent enough to match Handsome. Growing fond of Naomi, Attila saves her life while tricking the older Ferreira into thinking she was killed and engaging Handsome in the final fight he desires.
- Original film:
Gotta love Jaws!
to Deglan, Schneizel, Lloyd, Renfri and Silva.
Here's my writeup for Silva. Any thoughts?
- Bio Hunter Silva is a Bio Particle exterminator created by the Anti-Bio Union and by far the toughest opponent the Biomen faced. Coming to Earth after causing the destruction of Bio Star, Silva easily outmatches the Biomen while outmaneuvering the Neo Empire Gear's attempts to capture him. When the Gear steal his Balzion mecha and Farrah pilots it against the Biomen, Silva remotely holds it in place, allowing the Biomen to kill Farrah, before using a clone of Prince to break into Neograd and kill Mason. Silva then enters Balzion and pilots to eliminate the Biomen and the last of the Bio Particles. Even when Balzion is destroyed, Silva attempts to fight the Biomen on his own, still trying to complete his mission in his final moments.
Caesar
'Yes' to the Akito duo, Schneizel & Lloyd, Renfri, and Silva. I'd definitely be interested in hearing out Geralt!
WHAT A WONDERFUL DAY!
Abstain on Renfri, but Silva.
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Yes to Silva.
By the way Aladdin – Jafar. Do you mind that I potholed it in his entry on Magnificent Bastard Disney?
Edited by Bullman on Sep 12th 2021 at 8:27:29 AM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Writeup looks good bud!
Renfri and Silva
Looking forward to Geralt’s ep
So today I finished Scarlet Nexus, and since no one called dibs on it for this trope and the CM trope, I will discuss them. So spoilers for the story and whatnot.
While no one counts for the CM position, I have two possible candidates for being MB, and I'm going to start with the primary Big Bad of the story first, Major General Karen Travers.
Who is Karen Travers? What have They Done?
Major General Karen Travers is the Commander of the 2nd Regiment of the Other Suppression Force (OSF) and one of the Septentrions, the highest ranking officials within the OSF, and is also fellow Septentrion Luka Travers' older brother and the childhood friend of the 1st Regiment Commander and Septentrion Fubuki Spring.
Originally a dud (People without powers) alongside his brother who received his powers through experiments done on him by New Himuka, Of all the powers a psionic could gain Karen was given Brain Eater, arguably the strongest power as it allows him to mimic the powers of anyone he touches and lets them wield multiple powers at the same time with no limit other than stress on his brain and body.
Karen eventually enlisted alongside Fubuki and another childhood friend, Alice Hachijo, in the OSF, becoming quite a powerful psionic and soldier despite always clashing with the higher ups. Though he acted cold and aloof, Karen cared deeply for his friends, especially Alice who he always protected in battle. One day however on a mission the Extinction Belt which creates Others came very close to the surface of Earth and rained Other Particles down on Alice, turning her into an Other which devastated Karen and made him obsessed with trying to save her, leading to a cycle of complex events.
Karen originally allies with the city Seiran, who were at odds with the New Himuka government over what to do about the Extinction Belt and the Others not to mention learned of their unethical experiments and practices. Karen then starts a rebellion in the OSF that has half of its forces aligning with Seiran who create their own faction of the OSF in the city. This leads to a fight on the Kunad Highway which in turns has protagonists Yuito and Kasane resonate their powers and creates a gravitational anomaly called the Kunad Gate.
To give some context, there exists a power called the Red Strings, an extension of Gravikinesis (The power to create dimensions as well as simulate Psychokinesis) which allows the wielder to travel through time. The two main characters both have this power, Kasane being created by the cult Togetsu to use it for their plans while Yuito somehow obtained it when he met Kasane as a boy. The Kunad Gate is created by the Red Strings as a gateway for time travel, but normally it would disappear after being used, but Yuito's power resonating with Kasane's has only made the Kunad Gate grow which 50 years from now will turn most of the Earth into a barren wasteland. Yuito's lifespan is connected to the Kunad Gate and if he's killed then it will disappear.
Back to Karen and his alliance with Seiran, the city has a Supernatural Life Research Facility where they keep the humans turned into Others, feeding them medicine made from human brains to keep their sentience and prevent them from going berserk.
Although they claim they want to weaponize the human turned Others, Karen in truth wants to try and turn them back into humans, as one of them is Alice. He initially convinces Kasane to join forces with him when Seiran captures her sister Naomi, who was turned into an Other by New Himuka, in hopes of curing her as well. Also when Seiran learns of Yuito's connection to the Kunad Gate and suggests that Karen kills him, he objects though most likely for the reason below.
When New Himuka captures the human turned Others in order to weaponize them, two of them being Naomi and Alice, Togetsu attacks trying to come after Kasane and her platoon in which all the human turned Others sacrifice their lives to save them. Karen arrives and sees that Alice had been killed, muttering about how he failed to save her again before taking Kasane's power for himself. He then goes to the supercomputer underneath the city of Suoh, Arahabaki, where he fights Yuito and his platoon before using Arahabaki to immobilise them and takes Yuito's power in order to fully unlock the Red Strings before using it to travel back in time.
Karen travelled back 2,000 years ago when the Moon Colony sent people to re-colonise the planet, to the era where New Himuka's founder Yakumo Sumeragi was from. He appeared to Yakumo and kills them, taking the man's place in history and using his knowledge of the future to basically create what the New Himuka government was in the present, all in an effort to both save Alice and figuring out a way to get rid of the Extinction Belt over the Earth that creates the Others. Karen as Yakumo built Arahabaki using human brains much like Togetsu's supercomputer BABE and used it to store as much information as possible while also running simulations on how to get rid of the Extinction Belt, then used cold sleep to keep himself alive for centuries until the time came to be awakened once more.
Karen's actions created a stable time loop in which he has travelled to the past several times but was unable to save Alice each time, though he did not give up and would always take Yuito and Kasane's powers to keep time travelling over and over again, which explains why he didn't kill Yuito as he needs the Kunad Gate to exist in order to keep on travelling through time.
When he realises that his efforts haven changed anything, Karen goes to Sumeragi Tomb to confront his alternate counterpart, who he absorbs into himself and gains his memories and experiences. Upon encountering Yuito, Kasane and their platoon, who escaped a Brain Field created by Yakumo!Karen, Karen attempts to take their power once more, leading to a huge fight. Though he is the strongest psionic, he fights alone while Yuito and Kasane fight through SAS with their allies which allows them to keep up with his multiple powers by sharing theirs, leading to Karen snapping and creating a manifestation of his rage, sorrow, pain and anguish in the form of masked beings while also fighting using shadows of himself that reflect 2,000 years worth of memories and experiences.
Yuito and Kasane and co. are able to beat these manifestations to which Karen then is able to remove their connection to SAS and isolates them in order and try and pick them off one by one. However the connection is re-established through the Power of Friendship and they defeat Karen, who is convinced by them and Fubuki (Who arrives after Karen is defeated) to help them, which involves removing the entanglements created by his use of the Red Strings to make the Kunad Gate disappear. He agrees but not before convinces them to use their power to move the Extinction Belt into the Kunad Gate to prevent new Others from being born.
Yuito, Kasane, their friends, Fubuki and Karen use SAS to connect to Arahabaki in order to give Yuito and Kasane enough power to move the Extinction Belt, with Karen taking the full brunt of the power due to being connected to the supercomputer for 2,000 years. When the Extinction Belt is sucked into the Kunad Gate, Karen then takes Yuito and Kasane's powers yet again, seemingly betraying them. However Karen promises to remove the entanglements and will not kill Yakumo this time around, intending to erase his own existence in order to ensure Alice survives in the new timeline.
And after doing this so many times, it works. He saves Alice's life all while preserving the history of the world. However because he erased his own existence, Alice never met Karen and Luka was born an only child. The protagonists and their friends appear to be the only ones who remember him and at the end of the game create a tombstone in honour of his memory.
Is He Magnificent?
Karen is not only the strongest psionic in the story but he is highly intelligent and charismatic in how he operates. He convinces half of the OSF to rebel against the New Himuka government, constantly one-ups the main characters in combat and strategies and not to mention how he took Yakumo's place as the founder of New Himuka and ensured that history always happens the same way despite his actions possibly leading to alterations in time.
He was connected to Arahabaki for 2,000 years and gain so much knowledge and information on the Red Strings, the Extinction Belt and Other Particles which then ensured that when he awoke from cold sleep that his present counterpart could absorb him and gain said knowledge and memories.
Even after he was overpowered and defeated, Karen seized the opportunity to time travel once more and succeeding in saving Alice at the cost of his own existence, all while ensuring history yet again happened the same way.
Is He a Bastard?
He very much is. Karen is a cold and ruthless man who was willing to do whatever it took to save Alice, even if it meant he had to beat Yuito to near death in order to take his power. He sided with Seiran despite their politicians going behind his back and intending to use the human turned Others as weapons, though Karen himself wanted to ensure that wouldn't happen.
He started a rebellion, leading to so much destruction and strife, though it did open the world up to the corruption and malpractices of New Himuka. Karen had no qualms killing in order to fulfil his goals, and also time travelled countless times despite it creating entanglements that would lead to the Kunad Gate expanding and growing.
Despite this, he did care about his loved ones and was disgusted by Seiran's deceitful nature. He relented when he believed he could no longer win and even when he got one last chance to save Alice, he promised to fix his mistakes and not kill Yakumo again. He ultimately sacrificed himself so that the woman he loved could live.
Any Competition?
There is another character I want to propose but I'll get to him afterwards and he doesn't clash with Karen's actions or outstages him.
All the other characters are either not ruthless enough or don't have any altruistic motives like he does or initially had.
Final Verdict
Out of the two I want to propose, Karen is the one who has the highest chance of counting. But I'll leave the rest to you guys.
Yes to Karen. Good work being thorough.
Yes to Karen (definitely not a Karen).
Karen.
Yes to Karen.
(Sigh) Okay, so this isn't the sort of thing I wanted to do tonight, but I just finished the Kang arc in The Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes (Still kicks ass) and... I'm sorry, but I have to say we should cut Kang. He's not too evil, unlike the other two we cut, not by a long shot, and he's still an awesome, awesome villain, but...
Kang's really arrogant, and awesome or not, I gotta say it crosses a line for me. Kang initially has a stoic demeanor, but it repeatedly flies right out the window the second he's angered. He's guilty of Just Toying with Them a lot, including at one point actively keeping his own robots from overwhelming the Avengers so he could fight them himself. He's prone to Fantastic Racism against people from the past (Proclaiming notably at one point that "I will not be beaten by neanderthals!") and has a bad habit of underestimating his enemies. At one point during his final fight with Cap and Iron Man, he directly tempts fate by taunting Iron Man about how he can't hurt him... before Iron Man promptly fucks him up six ways to Sunday thanks to his tech advancement, leaving Kang shocked. While I'll give Kang bonus cred for getting back up from that and giving Cap and Tony a hell of a fight, it's an utterly humiliating moment.
He is firmly in the Anti-Villain category, wanting to save his wife and timeline by ridding the world of Captain America since Cap fucked up the timeline, but at the end, when he's beaten down, clearly going to lose, and the Avengers have offered to help him save his wife in exchange for surrender, Kang... angrily yells "Never!" and attacks, only to get wrecked by Captain America in a single blow. He's got Villainous Valor for days, but there's only so far you can go before it becomes way too arrogant, and I gotta say I can't see attacking the heroes when they've offered to help you achieve your main goal in exchange for your surrender as anything but an undignified last shot. We see him in a prison cell afterwards, and he's much calmer, but basically all he has to say is the same as usual: Captain America is going to betray the Avengers and they should've let Kang kill him.
While he returns later, and it's an awesome showcase where he reworks the Arc Reactor into a time machine, teleports the Avengers through time and nearly spearheads an invasion all under a day, (And I'm not gonna fault him on his Villainous Breakdown at the end, it's tiny compared to some other villains on the show) he maintains the arrogance he started with, referring to the people of the past as "Primitives," taunting Thor while bound with no actual ability to back up his taunts at all, and only even getting out of prison because the Council of Kangs intervenes to tell him to straighten things out and kill the Avengers. He does much better than the first time, yes, but the stuff that made me hesitate on the first go-round is clearly still there— he's by no means developed out of those tendencies.
Now, I'm not gonna try and refute that Kang's a goddamn genius— hell, even watching his fight scenes alone makes it clear how brilliant he is, considering the tactical edge with which he absolutely styles on his adversaries, and I'm willing to allow a certain level of arrogance with my kids' cartoon villains, especially when it's combined with as much pure badass as Kang has to offer (I'm talking gets his fancy tech brought down and pulls out a sword and puts up a solid fight against two stronger opponents badass) but again, I'm looking at the guy and his constant fist-shaking anger and narcissism combined with his Fantastic Racism and I can't say in good conscience I think he belongs up on this trope.
Absolutely love the guy but I think he's too arrogant for this overall. Would love to be proven wrong, I happily invite any argument that might let him stay up.
Edited by Riley1sCool on Sep 12th 2021 at 9:57:26 AM
I thiiiink I'm leaning yes to her