During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II
Aye to Raven.
Congrats Dood!
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
Sorry, my bad.
Edited by GeorgieEnkoom on May 28th 2021 at 4:08:13 PM
J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)
It's Raven who's the candidate not Cinder.
I hate spoilers
After enough searching around, I think I've found another worthy candidate.
Intro: Valkyria Chronicles is a game set during the Second Europan War, between Gallia and The Empire (technically, there is the Atlantic Federation, but they're not important in this installment). This is a game where the titular characters are pretty much invincible unless you have one of your own to use against them (or they decide not to use their powers). Prince Maximillian is the Big Bad, but one of his generals has proven himself to the man before the events of the game.
Who is Radi Jaeger?
The aforementioned General Jaeger was chosen to serve The Empire due to his skills and being the fallen Kingdom of Fhirald's biggest Four-Star Badass. He's a tank commander that briefly shows up in the first act of the game, and fought for real near the end of the game, where he is That One Boss.
Intelligence: Simply piloting a tank wouldn't be enough for him to impress Maximillian. He's also good at leading an army well, which is shown in-game through his use of issuing commands that increase his troops' damage output, accuracy, and evasion. This puts him high on the Sliding Scale of Gameplay and Story Integration. According to his in-game bio, he is "decisive and level-headed" and has a "keen eye for strategy".
Villainy: He willingly serves The Empire as they invade the peaceful country of Gallia. It's implied that he's gone to battle against other Gallian soldiers via Offstage Villainy.
Virtues: General Jaeger is Affably Evil, refusing to raise his voice and shows respect towards everyone, even if they upset him. He only serves The Empire because he was promised the restoration of his home kingdom if they succeed. When he's defeated by Squad 7, he realizes how badly they wanted to protect their home and that he's no better than the people who took Fhirald from him and invaded it. This causes him to leave the war effort and seek a less malicious way to restore Fhirald to its former glory.
Improvising: After being defeated prior to the events of the story, Jaeger equips his tank, the Lupus, with an armored plating to block its radiator so no one can simply Attack Its Weak Point like last time. In order to prevent this from overheating his tank, he has enemy camps provide cooling to replenish it. This means the player will have to seize all of the enemy camps in order for the damage to add up. He also added a mortar onto his tank for crowd control.
Charm: General Jaeger is a suave, friendly man with an arousing voice, provided by Patrick Seitz. He's charismatic enough to be an Ensemble Dark Horse who also gives off Evil Is Sexy. Upon his final defeat, he realizes that Squad 7 is guaranteed to win the war and gracefully walks away. He never loses his chill demeanor.
Everyone look at my sandbox
Oh, I know Radi Jaeger! Easy yes
The MILF Virus
So I got another candidate in mind and this one is a bit of a doozy. Our candidate is from The House in Fata Morgana a really heavy and dark visual novel, with a pretty twisted villain. I give you the Saint turned Witch, Morgana.
What is the setting?
The House in Fata Morgana is a horror visuak novel revolving around a mysterious mansion rumored to be curse. As an unknown entity, you meet The Maid of the estate and through her you go to a journey of the past to see different moments of history inside the mansion in hopes of figuring out who you are, believing you might be secretly connected to one of those many histories. As you continue witnessing each history, there's a requiring rumor about the mansion, that it was the home of a witch and if you stay inside you'll eventually be cursed by the witch, living a life of tragedy. While seemingly like a random ghost story, it cannot be any closer to the truth as the owners of the mansion have suffered a tragic fate all perpetuated by the vengeful soul who was the first victim of the mansion, the Witch Morgana.
Who is Morgana and what does she do?
Initially believing herself the daughter of God thanks to her charlatin mother, she set herself as the Miracle Saint who can help those in need, mainly due to the claims of her mother and for being born during the same day rain came after a long drought. Taking her duty seriously, she would preach to the people about the world of God, and used her blood to help cure people, like aiding an ill old woman, while being humble forgiving her doubters and not taking anything for return. This did not bold well for her mother however, who not only started getting creeped out with how unusual she is from other children, and not taking the offerings given to her, leading to both her and Morgana struggling to survive. She eventually had enough with Morgana and sold her to Lord Barnier for cash, breaking the young girls heart.
Presented to the Lord, Morgana tried at first to convince Barnier to repent for his misdeeds, which ended up horribly. Knocked down, Morgana was stripped naked and chained to a table as a slave to be used as entertainment for the Lord and his guests during his parties, having her do degrading things from eating raw meat like an animal only to tell her it's human flesh, to scarring her all over her body, and mocking her so-called miracles by having a slave pretend he needs help only to point it was just an act. This eventually drove Morgana to despair until she was saved by a slave revolt led by Jacopo who took her inside a brothel since she has nowhere to go.
At first being horrified at where she is, believing she'll be made into a prostitute, Morgana was cold towards the woman working there and Jacopo, before falling back to depression when she saw her face as a scarred mess due to Barnier's torture. She does eventually get better slowly throughout the years in the brothel, befriending the other girls and the people around the slums even if she stays quiet with them, having a close friendship with a girl around her age named Ceren who also works there, and slowly recovering from the scarring thanks to the efforts of Jacopo buying ointment to help heal it. Unfortunately this all change when the brothel was raided by Barnier's men and she was taken to be a slave once more, although she was saved by the efforts of an Asian man who was captured named Yukimasa who slaughtered everyone aside from her. Now all alone, Morgana found an old cabin in the woods belonging to an old lady who died recently. Now taking over, Morgana live by being a herb maker, creating medicine in her lonesome until she met Mell who she slowly befriended along with his sister Nellie. However again tragedy struck.
One day after a knock seemingly from Mell, Morgana opened the door only to see have her hand cut off by Yukimasa, now working for the Lord, who used Mell to get to Morgana who then kidnapped her and took her to the Lord, who is now Jacopo after he usurp Barnier a long time ago. Now trapped once again, Morgana slowly died from her wounds, and her blood being drained as miracle blood, as some sort of sabbath made to increase the prosperity of the town. In her last breath she asked God to curse those who wronged her in a way they deserve, which she seemingly got after her blood poisoned the crowd, which turned the town's people against Jacopo and his people killing them all.
Now a ghost, Morgana resurfaced after Michel came and saw her body, calling to her spirit. Returned, she first tried to get Michel to curse his family as she did to her tormenters, but it didn't work, however, when Michel and Giselle, his lover and an exiled servant from his family, were being hunted by the knights led by Michel's brother, Morgana agreed to a deal with Michel where she'd protect Giselle as his only request even if it meant dying himself. Taking advantage of Giselle grieving Michel's demise, Morgana tricked her into becoming her tool to help get revenge on the 3 once more, knowing they will be reborn one day she'll call them to the mansion and later use their biggest flaws to make their lives hell. She ultimately gets her way, breaking Mell's mind after tricking him into falling in love with White Haired servant not knowing she's actually his half-sister causing a massive rift between him and his sister Nellie which caused him to commit suicide, driving Yukimasa mad with her murderous urges including tricking him into thinking he's not a man but a beast and having him kill his lover Pauline before having his new lover the reincarnated White-Haired Girl, executed by a mob along with him, and then having Jacopo to die alone after driving all of his friends and wife, against the White-Haired Girl, leaving him with all the riches and power he wants but nobody to be there when he passed away from old age. With their deaths, they become trap in the mansion where she can torment them for all of eternity. All the way she slowly gaslights Giselle into thinking she's the Witch even making her believe a fake story as the truth.
This all comes to an end when Michel comes to the play, saving Giselle from the illusions and later getting Morgana to stop her revenge after revealing to her the sides of the 3 men who wronged her, even showing Jacopo the man she loved was the one she cursed, not the first Lord who scarred her. Ultimately while she doesn't forgive the 3 men, she should move on and be reborn, freeing the 3 from the mansion before returning to the real world with Michel, and Giselle though they were stopped on the way by Michel's brother Didier who was also a ghost tormented by his guilt. Later when she realize Jacopo didn't leave the mansion and planned to let himself be trapped in an eternal prison for his sins wallowing on what he and Morgana could've had, Morgana decides to rescue him from himself, while not forgiving is willing to give him another chance in another life walking together to the real world once more. She then reincarnates as a normal girl in Italty, befriending Jacopo and Maria in this life again, even having a slowly budding romance with Jacopo.
Is she Magnificent?
Yes, not only does she ultimately mastermind the tragic fates of those who wrong her, relying more on using their Fatal Flaw to bring the tragedy to them instead of some sort of brainwashing, but she also successfully gaslight Gisellle into believing she's the real witch, ultimately responsible for all the events in the game. While she might've been mistaken in a few details, such as not realizing Jacopo wasn't actually Barnier who was her biggest target to curse, she ultimately was able to get revenge on 3 of the 4 she wanted to curse and in the end was also the one who had to end the torment, ultimately she had full control over what happened.
Too Much of a Bastard?
While Morgana had no qualms using innocent people as pawns to her scheme, and subject her tormenters to an endless cycle of pain as revenge, she shows there's a good girl in there, having been sympathetic to Michel despite wanting him to curse his family, though there's a hint it was out of concern for him, actually growing fond of Giselle despite using her, but even before that she was ultimately a quiet but polite girl who treated the people around her with respect, ultimately appreciating them and feeling regret dragging one of them, Maria, into her vengeance. She also returned and save Jacopo from damning himself because of his old guilt, showing while still angry does still lingering attachment to him.
Final Verdict:
I believe she qualifies with how she managed to get her revenge, successfully manipulating Giselle, and an amazingly written character, a saint turned to a witch.
"Are you the devil?" "Don't compare to me to those small fry" - Mir
Yes to Jaeger.
The Moron
Yes to Jaeger and Morgana
I ran two potential Write a Magnificent Bastard ideas by Riley and he seemed cool with it, so I've two Buffy entries for the page:
Under the "Greats" section, directly under the Lost duo:
- Mayor Wilkins and Mr. Trick from Buffy the Vampire Slayer: The only thing potentially trickier than an MB partnership is an MB Big Bad/Dragon duo. By definition, one of the two needs to be more powerful than the other, which is a recipe for the weaker of the two to be disqualified. In the case of these two, however, they both manage to count for several reasons. First, a lot of effort is put into making clear that the power disparity is physical, not intellectual; while the two are supposedly boss and underling, they both bounce ideas off of each other and contribute equally, giving the impression of an imbalanced partnership instead. Second, it's made clear that Trick can very well survive on his own without the Mayor's help - before the Mayor contacts him, he already has several personal schemes under his belt, mitigating the issue when he then joins the Mayor (who then gets just as many plans executed as well), and during his time with the Mayor, he front-runs the operations. Third, and perhaps most important, is the fact that they specialize in such different ways. Trick shines through due to his pragmatism, quick thinking, and personal showmanship, while the Mayor stands out with his long-term thinking, his relationship with Faith, and his constant affable demeanor no matter what is thrown his way. In essence, while they are a boss and underling, they are both equal threats in their own ways and there is no intellectual disparity between them, allowing them both to count at once.
Under the "Treat with Caution" section, directly under Obito:
- Adam from Buffy the Vampire Slayer: Much like Obito, Adam counts as a Magnificent Bastard while remaining an example of how not to write one. Unlike Obito, however, most of the issues with Adam can be traced back to a single problem: his onscreen presence. Between being introduced late in his season and being kept offscreen for most of his run, there is nowhere near enough time for Adam to properly connect with the audience, and while his philosophical nature makes him unique, it's also rather dull for the fantastic setting. Complicating the issue is that the few times we do see him, he's largely reacting to what the heroes are doing, so his retaliatory acts, while present, are kept in the background. As a result, the fanbase's opinion of him could not be more divided; while some view him as intelligent, unique, and fulfilling the role he was meant to have, others see him as dull, wasted potential, and the worst Big Bad of the show. It's always important to remember that even if your villain has enough acts and appearances to make it, they also require a full onscreen presence in order to properly land with the audience; introducing a character and then shoving them in the background might not alienate everyone, but it will certainly not leave them with a good impression of the character overall.
Thoughts everyone?
I know a potential Vito entry has been brought up before - I'm personally down for it, since he essentially codified The Don. I know a Michael Corleone entry was proposed for Treat with Caution but it never got added.
Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on May 29th 2021 at 9:48:17 AM
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Those work for me. What do you think about possibly adding entries for Vito Corleone and Arsene Lupin?
EDIT: Ah, I didn't realize the latter was already there.
Edited by ImperialMajestyXO on May 28th 2021 at 8:47:45 AM
I was gonna suggest Adam for treat with caution. Glad you wrote it up STAR!
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Gotta love Jaws!
CUT SUGGESTION
I would like to questions whether John Kramer the main character of Saw should count as an MB. 1) His traps are just a little too sadistic. 2) Plenty of times he (or someone following his plan) puts an innocent person in one of those traps and lets them die merely to mentally torture someone else connected to them. 3) as discussed under Misaimed Fandom on the franchise YMMV page, his claim of bettering the survivors of his traps is kind of bogus and most of them end up worse off mentally and/or physically.
Schenk kind of makes sense as an MB, going after a specific set of people who he had a genuine grievance with, many of whom were still being dirty cops. Kramer, I feel more doubt about. That being said, I haven't actually seen the Saw movies (I doubt I'd have the stomach for it), merely read the wiki pages. Often a characters actual role and performance can add something more than just the some of what they do (for instance, just reading about Vergere in New Jedi Order for years I thought I'd hate her but I really enjoyed her in the two books where she has the biggest role when I finally read them). Maybe Kramer should stay an MB, but based solely on what I've read about him, I'm not so sure.
Since the search function is unreliable at best, why didn't we add Mike Corleone's writeup to the "Treat With Caution" section?
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
I am reasonably sure we voted to keep John several times with those same arguments being brought up before. I don't think he's too sadistic personally and he truly believes in his cause. He always gives the people a fair chance, and almost every trap that doesn't is because his apprentices didn't fallow his rules and sabotaged it. I am voting keep.
Edited by Bullman on May 28th 2021 at 11:45:10 AM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Lizzid people!
John legitimately believes his cause. That and there was also that tragedy of his character as well.
Actually, I may have an entry of my own for the Treat With Caution section:
- Batman: On paper, the title character may seem like a quintessential anti-heroic MB. He's brilliant, determined, darkly charismatic, and an iconic Badass Normal to boot. His MO involves being a figure of terror, he's willing to manipulate friend and foe alike, and he's certainly not above bending or even outright breaking the rules if he feels the need. So what's the problem? Well, ultimately, he has the exact opposite problem faced by many on this list: at the end of the day, he's a bit too morally clean to really meet the "bastard" part that this trope requires. While he's certainly more gray-shaded than many other DC heroes, his no-kill rule and unwillingness to cause harm towards people who aren't villains or criminals holds him back from being bad enough to genuinely qualify as a bastard. Further complicating matters is that his more ruthless moments are not only fairly out of character, making them outliers from his normal behavior, but generally either born out of desperate situations or moments of weakness on his part, making it hard to find them "magnificent". While he's often fairly antiheroic, he demonstrates being an antihero doesn't necessarily make one bad enough to fall into this trope. However, he still makes an excellent Guile Hero, and if one were to amp up his ruthlessness and make him a bit more willing to get his hands dirty, even if only in pursuit of justice, it would be easy to make a case for him; multiple versions of him from alternate continuities have counted due to darker characterization.
Thoughts?
Edited by ImperialMajestyXO on May 28th 2021 at 11:43:21 AM
Goku Black
I don't think batman in his original version is intended to be this unless I'm missing something?
I'm gonna sleep on the Batman one but the Mayor/Trick and Adam ones are looking good to go in my opinion!
Well, I've seen him cited as a "heroic" example of this trope a lot, so whether he was intended to be that way, it's how a significant number of people perceive him. Besides, Light Yagami definitely wasn't intended to be this trope (see his utterly pathetic death, at least in the manga), but he's listed there.
Take as much time as you need.
Edited by ImperialMajestyXO on May 28th 2021 at 9:54:34 AM
And sure. ![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Jaeger and Morgana.
Caesar
'Yes' to Jaegar, Morgana, and all the Treat with Caution suggestions, even Batman I'm fairly fine with, him or versions of him come up enough as is that I'm ok with an entry specifically for him.
Con-grad-ulations, Dood! 
Alrighty, here's a fun duo, with thanks to miraculous for tossing 'em my way...
What's the work?
Mighty Morphin' Power Rangers/Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles is a 2019-2020 comic series written by Ryan Parrott and starring the two titular teenage teams, the Power Rangers and the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles themselves, as they first face off with each other...and then a pair of threats from each of their personal Rogues Galleries!
Who are the Shredder and Rita Repulsa? What makes them candidates?
Depicted here with far more gravitas, badassery and intelligence than many of their iterations, the Shredder and Rita serve as the Big Bad Duumvirate of the comic.
Shredder is introduced using his Foot Clan to pull off a variety of crimes, and while the legendary "Green Ranger" has apparently gone undercover and infiltrated the Foot's ranks...Shredder is totally aware that Tommy Oliver is the Green Ranger and out to spy on him, and manipulates Tommy into doing his dirty work before tricking him into a trap. After brushing off Tommy's poor attempts at goading Shredder into a typical fistfight, Shredder steals away Tommy's Power Coin using Dimension X technology and uses the Power Coin on himself, uttering the magic word of "Dragonzord" and becoming a Power Ranger himself, complete with a fuckin' sick design.
Rita Repulsa, who has been monitoring the entire situation, invades Shredder's Technodrome to steal the Power Coin from him, but after a long fight, the two villains realize their talents would be much better spent working together against their mutual foes, and form a tentative alliance.
Luring the rest of the Power Rangers into a trap where Shredder ambushes them and thrashes them all, Shredder and Rita use their tech and magic to remove the Rangers' abilities to morph, sending the heroes fleeing as Shredder informs them that if they haven't handed over their now-useless to them Power Coins in a certain time, the still-captured Tommy will die. Rita then unleashes one of her monsters in the middle of New York to draw out and attempt to kill the Ninja Turtles and take more Power Ranger tech from them.
When this plan fails thanks to the Turtles becoming Mighty Morphin' Rangers themselves, Shredder and Rita turn Shredder's two thuggish mutants Bebop and Rocksteady into gigantic Kaiju versions of themselves and sic them onto New York to lure out the Turtles and Rangers into a final battle...and when the Rangers arrive in a giant mecha Megazord? Shredder uses his own Zord in the form of a giant dinosaur robot to ambush and fight them while they're distracted with Bebop and Rocksteady...then the Turtles show up in a giant turtle mecha! This shit crazy, y'all ![[lol]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/lol2v12_4863.png "[lol]"){kind=small}
As the Turtles and Rangers only win thanks to combining their Zords into one, Shredder tries to use the Technodrome's weapons to wipe out all Zords at once, but our heroes move fast enough to overwhelm the Technodrome and destroy it. Meanwhile, Shredder and Rita, recuperating in her massive space station, are tracked down by our heroes...and though Shredder faces them all down and beats them repeatedly, an escaped Tommy manages to use Ranger power and tech to steal his Power Coin back, reducing Shredder to normal.
And though he's now reduced to normal? Shredder stands his ground against all of the Rangers and Turtles, proclaiming he will die before surrender...only for Rita to spring into action, trap Shredder in a forcefield, and—as she has been hinting through the comic—forces his hand to take them both to Dimension X so she can deal directly with Shredder's extradimensional allies (hinted to be the Kraang), and though Shredder is disgruntled at her trickery, he accepts and the two villains vanish from sight, down but not forever as our celebrate their temporary victory...
Are they magnificent?
Definitely. They both outwit and have the heroes on edge consistently and are portrayed as far more dangerous and cool than many versions of themselves.
Shredder is a beast here, using Ranger tech, giant mechas and facing down all the damn heroes at once without flinching, while Rita is a background schemer, pulling strings and ultimately heavily implied to have only formed an alliance with Shredder to eventually get to Dimension X to learn the secrets of it...and while Shredder is technically one-upped by her (to a point) successfully at the end when he's stuck between facing the heroes alone or taking her to Dimension X, I think he balances it out nicely by being overall more impressive in the longrun and his only reaction to her treachery is just mild grumbling lol
Are they bastards?
Well of course, they're supervillains out to kill the heroic Rangers and Turtles, while threatening countless innocents of New York as a byproduct. Nevertheless, it's total basic bitch supervillainy, with no onscreen deaths because of the two, and their cool factor is far more focused upon.
Final Verdict?
Hell yeah to 'em both!
WHAT A WONDERFUL DAY!
Let's finally get this done so I can move on to all the Runescape candidates, hopefully starting tomorrow.
Magic: The Gathering: Liliana Vess is the sultry yet vain planeswalker from Dominaria whose spark ignited when the enigmatic Raven Man tricked her into cursing her beloved brother Josu when she sought to cure him. Learning necromancy in her mortal life, Liliana gained godlike power which she lost in the Mending and brokered a contract with Nicol Bolas to serve four demons in exchange for her youth and lost power. After gaining the Chain Veil on the order of one demon and seeking her freedom, she used its power to kill him and later engineered the freedom of another from imprisonment in the Helvault to slay him as well. Seducing fellow planeswalker Jace and joining the Gatewatch, Liliana manipulated them into facing Bolas so that she could slay a demon serving him, and rebounded from their defeat at Bolas's hand to track down and slay the final demon and finally give her brother peace in the process. Now forced to serve Nicol Bolas as the contract holder, she helps to lead his harvest of all planeswalker sparks yet ultimately turns against him and helps to ensure his defeat. Ultimately seeking redemption, Liliana finally frees herself from the Chain Veil and the Raven Man to atone for her past.
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
to Shredder and Rita
Goku Black
Oh happy shredder and rita.
I'll toss a Jaegar, Morgana
Radique, Madara, Raven, Jaegar, Morgana, Shredder and Rita
![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
Dakarai
Radique Write up