Broken Base Cleanup

It does sound onesided. Especially the first point.

Both of those examples are one-sided. Cut.

Edited by ADrago on Oct 21st 2018 at 10:18:30 AM

On top of being one-sided, the first bullet point uses Weasel Words when claiming there's a split, instead of actually describing a split.

Reposting from the previous page, so it doesn't get lost:

These were recently added to the main Broken Base page:

* Six months after release at the time of writing, the question of whether The Last Jedi was a good film or not continues to divide the fanbase, to the point that discussion surrounding the release of Solo has often been overshadowed by discussion of the last movie, and many fans have reportedly boycotted it entirely based on that film's reception. The most heated discussions centre around whether the film was too comedic compared to previous Star Wars films, how characters from the Original Trilogy (especially Luke Skywalker) were treated, and whether a "social justice agenda" was present in the movie courtesy of Lucasfilm President Kathleen Kennedy. The character of Rose Tico is another point of contention: the vitriol surrounding her escalated to the point that the actress who plays her, Kelly Marie Tran, had to leave social media after harassment.

Think we should start a Broken Base discussion dates page?

It can cover both Base-Breaking Characters and standard Broken Base entries.

So, it's been 3 days any chance I could get a response regarding the example I brought up above.

A new subpage has been created for Arrow.

As a matter of policy, I'm suspicious that any individual television show truly has enough valid examples to constitute a subpage, especially considering that it had no examples on the general BrokenBase.Live Action TV page it was ostensibly split from. (The contents of the page were copy-pasted from YMMV.Arrow, suggesting Fan Myopia.)

I move that the contents of the subpage be copied onto a Sandbox page so those who care can comb it for valid examples, and the subpage be cutlisted in the meantime.

Edited by HighCrate on Oct 25th 2018 at 9:49:44 AM

I wanted to bring this page in his thread.

• The show itself among comic fans: Either the show's decision to go no-superpowers route and many other changes (especially the changes made to Huntress and Deathstroke) mean it's an insult to the comics, or the no-powers thing makes it approachable and, in spite of those changes, it is still a decent show.

General reception, not Broken Base. Comic fans who hate the show as a whole are not Arrow fans period.

• The fanbase has become largely split into two camps: comics fans who hate the show post-Season 2 (or in some cases, post-Season 3's mid-season finale) and those who don't. Critics of modern Arrow tend to cite poor writing (especially the elevation of Felicity), low production values and disrespect for the comics, while fans tend to appreciate the show for focusing more on Felicity and the drama aspects of the show. A quick look at Twitter and Tumblr versus YouTube and Reddit shows how polarized opinions on the show have become.

Biased toward negative

• Even the comics have seemingly jumped in on the debate by erasing Felicity's existence from the canon with the DC Rebirth◊ (while keeping Diggle) and reuniting Oliver with the Black Canary.

Irrelevant

• There's also a third, more moderate camp who also dislike the drop on quality and poor plotting (the Idiot Plot of Malcolm/Ra's in Season 3 and baby mama drama in Season 4 are the biggest complaints) but like Felicity, and are fans of the original, more gritty grounded nature of the show in Season 1 and 2 when the focus was on Original Team Arrow and Oliver. The group generally want the show to return to its core focus on Oliver's journey rather than the endless line of new superheroes - both on Arrow and in spin-offs.

"Third, more moderate camp" breaks the "no middel ground" rule

• The repeated statements by higher-ups that superpowers would start appearing more often in Season Two, to the point that a pre-superpowers Barry Allen will be making appearances in the mid-season finale and the twentieth episode of the season, would serve as a Back Door Pilot for a Flash spin-off^note It has since been announced that the pilot will not be an episode of Arrow, but rather a separate pilot. Some think it's good for the show to try to stay closer to its source material, while others think it ruins the tone the show established.

Announcement... cut.

• Slade's new mask in Season Two. Some like it, thanks in no small part to how it's introduced. Others don't and think it looks cheap. Then there are those who just think it's an improvement over the old mask.

I don't think the majority of the fanbase cares about something this trivial

• Season Two's increased Ship Tease moments for Oliver and Felicity. The fandom generally likes both characters and they're a popular ship, but some feel that it's being laid on thick.

It looks like it was added while season 2 was airing

I'm already tired. I'll see the rest later.

Edited by Silverblade2 on Oct 26th 2018 at 9:35:47 PM

This is painfully kneejerk complaining even for Broken Base. Isn't the Flash on like season 4 or 5 now?

• Season Two's increased Ship Tease moments for Oliver and Felicity. The fandom generally likes both characters and they're a popular ship, but some feel that it's being laid on thick.

Olicity has since become a Official Couple and an unpopular one. It's kinda outdated

• Felicity's treatment of Oliver in season three is also proving divisive. Some feel it's great Character Development for her, helping her move beyond her little crush on him by standing up to Oliver more and being her own person, while others feel that she is being unfair and insensitive, even callous, to Oliver, who admittedly is no saint himself but currently has a lot on his plate, especially when it comes to his sister and his admittedly questionable decision to reach out to Malcolm Merlyn for help in dealing with Ra's Al Ghul.

Ok, this one has the merit of developing both sides in more or less equal measure but I'm wary about how sustained the conflict is.

• Deadshot's death, especially after the episode prior gave him a sympathetic backstory. The reveal that his death was the result of Executive Meddling. Marc Guggenheim pretty much confirmed that they had to kill him off because the big boss has something else planned for the character.

Zero-Context Example It doesn't explain why the spoilered entry is controversal in one way or another.

• In general, Season Three has this in spades: Sara's death and the following murder investigation, Laurel becoming the Black Canary, Quentin being left in the dark about Sara's death, Ra's Al Ghul's appearance, massive drama between Oliver and Felicity (who were popular as a ship because they lacked this), the original Team Arrow dynamic being played down, an increased emphasis on comic book characters, Ray Palmer and his relationship with Felicity, Malcolm joining the team, Deadshot's death... it's easier to list what storyline hasn't been controversial in season three.

Just a list of why season 3 sucked without elaborating on any of those points.

• Nyssa being forced to marry Oliver/Al-Sahim has received a lot of mixed (mostly negative) reactions. Most of the fans are extremely angry that the writers force the only living LGBT character as of Season 3 into a heterosexual relationship. Other fans however note that it's meant to be a horrible event that we're clearly meant to find appalling. It's really a matter of if it suits as a Moral Event Horizon for the villain forcing this or if it crosses a line into just too disgusting.

Okay this one also elaborates on both sides however I'm not sure if it's really a long term conflict. Oliver eventually leaves Nyssa alone for the rest of the series even though they only officially divorce in season 6

• Another example is the characterisation of Ra's al Ghul. Some fans LOVE his character as a villain, other's think that he's nothing but a sexist, homophobic hypocrite for not only wiping Malcolm's debt even though he killed over 500 people, but for wanting a male heir, disowning Nyssa, only for him to bring her back and force her into a marriage with Oliver that she clearly doesn't want. It doesn't help that he seems to be VERY inconsistent on his motives and his Blue-and-Orange Morality just comes off as a means to allow the writers to do whatever they want.

First, Base-Breaking Character would fit better because it's specifically about the reception of a character. Secondly, the positive side is only elaborate as "Some fans LOVE his character as a villain" before going on a rant about how terrible the character is. While I agree with it, it fails to properly adress both sides in equal length.

• Whether or not Oliver is right to refuse the mantle of Ra's Al Ghul— people for him taking the mantle point out that Ra's himself notes that the League will adopt a Thou Shall Not Kill path if Oliver wills it, and it would have made things a lot easier (as well, as Ray points out, Oliver was still killing people just two years prior). People against it believe it goes against his character development from the last few seasons and point out that it essentially makes Oliver Batman in all but name if he goes down that path— which many people feel would weaken the show's quality.

I doubt that it's a sustained conflict as it happened in season 3 and now the show is running its seventh one.

The Rest later...

Edited by Silverblade2 on Oct 27th 2018 at 11:50:40 AM

Pretty much all of those sound like, "people have different opinions". Nothing about any kind of fandom civil wars.

What about my suggestion for a discussion dates page?

x9. So, it's been 6 days any chance I could get a response regarding the examples I brought up above.

A discussion dates page sounds like a good idea, so we can put aside a time to discuss specific works and subpages.

Started the page here.

Any improvements are welcome.

Edited by MasterJoseph on Oct 27th 2018 at 10:37:47 AM

x12. So, it's been 10 days any chance I could get a response regarding the examples I brought up above.

The D&D examples sound like they might be legitimate, but the first one seems too biased against 4th Edition. For the other one, I'm not sure if conflicts that lasted for many years but eventually died out still count as "sustained".

I'm not a big sports fan, so I can't weigh in on the NFL's rulings, but the Colin Kaepernick example sounds like it's edging on the Rule Of Cautious Editing Judgment, so I'm not sure if it's necessary.

The Last Jedi sounds like a case of "is this movie good or bad", which is explicitly said to not count as Broken Base.

Conan The Barbarian sounds more like Only the Creator Does It Right, and is already on that page, where the wording implies that the "Howard only" side is a Vocal Minority.

Worm doesn't give enough context about Taylor's actions, making it unreadable to anyone not familiar with the work.

Alright the Arrow page has been cut already.

I'll put what I haven't reviewed yet in the folder. I suppose there's nothing salvageable.

This was recently added to the main Broken Base page under films:

• On the topic of superhero movies, there's also a few regarding the DC Extended Universe, DC Comics's answer to the Marvel Cinematic Universe.
  • The tone - should it take a Darker and Edgier approach to the source material similar to the one used in the Nolan's The Dark Knight Trilogy, or should it be Lighter and Softer like the tone used in the aforementioned MCU? This issue only really started after Man of Steel, since it was made very clear that Nolan's films would be divorced from the more fantastical elements, and only intensified with Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice.
  • On the other hand, the decision to make all films starting with Wonder Woman (2017) to be Lighter and Softer has caused one among the people who liked the darker tone. Some feel that changing the tone would invite a better reception since Wonder Woman (2017), which is the lightest film, has the best reception, whereas others feel the dark tone was what allowed the DCEU to stand out from Marvel, while also pointing out that the last time such a tone was tried, it flopped^note although one could argue that it was because said film blatantly copied Iron Man so much that it underperformed). The hiring of James Gunn, director and writer of Guardians of the Galaxy and its sequel, has only intensified this debate.
  • Lastly, the decision to introduce so many characters in Batman v Superman - with both Batman and Wonder Woman being fully introduced in the film, as well as Aquaman, Cyborg, and The Flash being given Early-Bird Cameos has some people excited to see them finally hit the big screen^note although Wonder Woman had a 70s TV show, and the latter 3 all appeared in Smallville, they hadn't appeared in any DC film, unless one counts the never-produced Justice League Mortal, whereas others feel it's yet another sign of Warner Bros attempting to catch up with Marvel.

I've found this on Rosemary's Baby while I was purging woobie entries: The Mini Series remake. The You Tube comments on the trailer are all arguments as to how they changed the setting to Paris, made the Castavets younger, cast an "ethnic" actress as Rosemary (along with arguments as to just what ethnicity Zoe Saldana isnote ), and remade it in the first place...

I was going to say that that entry doesn't represent both sides of the debate, but I looked at it again and I don't think it represents either side of the debate. No idea if it's valid, but it's super unclear as-is.

Dead by Daylight has a Broken Base page here. I don't know much about the game or its fanbase, but a lot of them seem like knee-jerk reactions to me. I actually had to do a little bit of an Examples Are Not Recent cleanup on it a while ago, which makes me think that people are adding examples as soon as updates/new characters are announced.

At the very least, we should probably remove this entry, give that it literally says that the conflict died down:

• The Huntress. Many people, particularly survivor players, weren't fond of the idea of a ranged killer. However, many seem fine with her now.

So it's been a week, any chance I could get a response regarding the example I brought up above.

IDK, it look like general reception overal. The second point at least is a cut as it's about upcoming works.

From Black Panther (2018)

• Broken Base: Believe it or not, Shuri's "What are thoooose?!" line. While the line is considered one of the film's funniest moments by a large number of fans, it actually also garnered a surprising amount of heat from those who not only found it obnoxious, but also regarded it as a Discredited Meme even at the time of the film's release. In one notable instance, CinemaSins got a lot of negative responses when they actually removed a sin for the line instead of adding one like the line's detractors wanted.

May I remove something as trivial as a two seconds joke?

That isn't major enough. Cut.

Found this in YMMV.My Little Pony Friendship Is Magic IDW Issue 51 To 53.

Broken Base: The Take That! towards Dilbert. Some readers thought it was a harmless joke that didn't affect the story, pointing to jabs in a previous story arc that mocked the "Martha" scene from Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice. A few even argued that it made sense Pinkie Pie of all ponies wouldn't "get" the strip's kind of humor. Other readers found it to be oddly mean-spirited for a comic about friendship and not even that good of a parody, mischaracterizing Dilbert himself ^note  The Dilbert pony exclaims that "No one is smart but me"; while Dilbert is an Insufferable Genius, he usually only remarks on it when bothered by his legitimately dumb bosses or is otherwise pushed by the Crapsack World he lives in, neither of which occurs in the parody strip and having two panels in the comic instead of the usual three.

I dont think a slight gag is Broken Base worthy.

Edited by WhirlRX on Nov 12th 2018 at 3:41:28 PM