Ensemble Dark Horse Cleanup

That would be appropriate, yes.

Also check out the thread for Zero Context Examples, especially if you're editing the entire page.

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I found EnsembleDarkhorse.Mortal Kombat due to it being on Image Pickin. It appears to list every single popular character in the franchise, regardless of how important they are. I'll admit that I only got into MK starting with MK9, but even I can tell that Scorpion, Sub-Zero, Raiden, Kung Lao, Johnny Cage, and Kitana do not count as "darkhorses" by any stretch of the word's meaning, as they are some of the main characters of MK, with Scorpion and Sub-Zero in particular being the face of the franchise as a whole.

The examples that I think could qualify are Quan Chi (depends on whether he was popular before becoming a major villain), Sareena, Tremor (this one is definitely an example), Khameleon, Havik, Tanya, Frost, and Nitara (for some reason, the context for these last 3 is hidden in a label note).

EDIT: I think the following definitely don't qualify:

• Scorpion (pictured right here) and Sub-Zero are among the most popular characters in the series. At one point, a lot of the newer characters (Smoke, Ermac, Noob Saibot, etc.) were directly based off their character models. In fact, Noob was later revealed to be the original Sub-Zero after the younger Sub-Zero (debuting in II) made his first unmasked appearance in Mortal Kombat 3.
• Although his role in the story (Especially after MK9) is divisive nowadays, Raiden was always one of, if not the most popular non-ninja character from the first game thanks to his Nice Hat and gibberish in his flying move with many finding him fun to play as. Being inspired by Lightning from Big Trouble in Little China (Whose already an Ensemble Dark Horse) and having a movie performance that is generally considered to be fun to watch also helps him.
• Goro from the first game deserves mention as he was only the sub-boss of the first game, but was regarded as more imposing and difficult than Shang Tsung, the actual final boss, and is more liked than any of the sub-bosses that came after him. This came to a point that not only did he return as sub-boss in the Continuity Reboot, but became a playable kharacter in Mortal Kombat X.
• From the second game, we have Kung Lao, the razor-rimmed hat-slinging best bud of Liu Kang. There's also Sonya's superior Jax, Liu's woman, Princess Kitana, her "sister" Mileena, and Baraka. And the secret characters: Jade, Smoke, and Noob Saibot (who, as noted above, is actually the original Sub-Zero from the first game).
• In MK9, Johnny Cage becomes a darkhorse thanks in part to borrowing his movie incarnation's personality (Which was already an Ensemble Dark Horse) and having his status as a well-meaning douche amped up to the point of hilarity. MK9 has quite a few CMOFs; Johnny is responsible for most of them.
• In Mortal Kombat X, all of the newcomers have been well-received with Kotal Kahn, Takeda, Erron Black and Jacqui Briggs in particular receiving the most attention.
  This one is a Zero-Context Example

Edited by Zuxtron on Sep 6th 2018 at 9:26:59 AM

I'd say none of them qualify. Other than the last entry, which is a group entry and therefore invalid, they're all characters from the first or second game. Since they're all playable characters (or sub-boss, in Goro's case), they're all on the main character tier. That means they have to be significantly more popular than any other character to qualify. We're talking more popular than the games themselves here. None of them are, and since only one can fit that position, none qualify.

I'm not too famililar with all the games, but if there's a character who's neither playable nor fightable and still manage to be more popular than all those characters, then we might have an example. Otherwise no.

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Cutting these examples from The Devil is a Part-Timer! for being main characters:

• Despite the intense divisions in the fanbase, most agree that Alciel is the best House Husband.
• Urushihara is also this, given how much his personality appeals to fans. There are also a lot of fans who watch because they feel sorry for him.

What should we do with this last entry?: Some of the side characters like Emi's co-worker Rika, Maou's boss Kisaki, and Emi's servants Emeralda and Albert are all resonably popular for contributing entertaining bits whenever they show up.

IPP Wick Check created.

Found these on YMMV.Young Justice Outsiders:

Ensemble Dark Horse:

• True to form, Spoiler/Stephanie Brown is considered the highlight of new Team recruits, especially because this is her debut as Spoiler not just in the series but in any non-comic medium.
• Static has always been a fan-favorite for the audience, but didn't join the Team until the final episode of the last season, so him continuing as a Team member this season has a lot of people excited for him.
• Of the new recruits to the Outsiders team, the one that caught a lot of attention and interest (even from the creators themselves) was Bug the Forager. He's a very creative pick, has a unique design, and brings a unique perspective as a New God residing on Earth. Plus, having only had a small cameo in Superman: The Animated Series and a small role in one episode of Justice League, he's a relatively obscure character.

Should these be cut, considering the show has been released yet.

Cutting this example from High School Of The Dead for being a main character: Saeko. She has more fans than the rest of the cast combined. It really says something when you have an amount of member favorites nearing 4000 in My Anime List, when none of the others even reach 1000.

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Ok, I honestly disagree with some of the Ensemble Dark Horse entries in the Green Lantern YMMV page. The examples are:

• In the 80s, it was Kilowog, who's still a fun character and a foil to the four Earth Lanterns. Recently, it's Mogo the living planet, who was introduced in the 80s and then rarely used until Green Lantern: Rebirth. He's had a lot to do since then, including being a key being in Infinite Crisis and the Sinestro Corps War storylines.
• And of the four Earth Lanterns, Guy Gardner is himself the darkhorse; originally a one-shot character who was brought back just so that he could be injured and John Stewart could take his place, writers just kept using him. He eventually became a sort of tragic-comic Anti-Hero, and his popularity and thus notability increased dramatically. He even got his own solo series for a while in the 90s and another in 2010.
• In an odd example, the Sinestro Corps War storyline was originally meant as a minor storyline, the big stories of the DCU were supposed to be Countdown to Final Crisis and Amazons Attack!. However, Sinestro Corps War was a massive hit, and both Countdown and Amazons Attack were massive failures. In fact, Sinestro Corps War was such a great success, that its sequel, Blackest Night, became THE next major Crisis Crossover, and DC's way of repairing the damage Countdown has done to their reputation. Fan outlook on the books is positive.
• Larfleeze.
  The fanbase is MINE!
• Hell, the Red Lantern Corps as a whole (especially the leader Atrocius, the Team Pet Dex-Starr and the Ms. Fanservice Bleez). They got their own series.
  • Ganthet. The only non-Lawful Stupid Guardian on all of Oa. Had the Fridge Brilliance moment of realizing that when a Lantern's hopeful, their will exponentially increases. Hence why he's the man.
• Arkillo has fast become one as well thanks in no small part to the massive amount of character development he received.
• Alan Scott is strikingly popular, despite having essentially nothing to do with the modern mythos and often not even existing in the same universe. Every comic he shows up in gets wide praise, and he seems to have little to no hatedom relative to the other human Lanterns.

---

The Green Lantern mythos feature one of the largest casts in comic book history, and some of these characters have starred in their own stories. Ensemble Dark Horse is "character that becomes unexpectedly popular despite their small role in the main narrative", not "any popular character that isn't the protagonist." We might need a Green Lantern expert to sort these examples out.

I'm not familiar with the work nor fanbase, but I can judge the examples as written.

• Nothing about Kilowog's examples says anything about how popular he is, nor how that relates to his prominence. Not an example as written.
• Guy Gardner's example has the same problem. It basically says he got more popular as he got more prominent, but that's not what the trope is about.
• Sinestro Corps War is not a character.
• Larfleeze.
  Shut up and get out.
• Red Lantern Corps as a whole. No groups. Otherwise still lacks proper context for individual characters.
• Ganthet's example lacks proper context.
• Arkillo became popular with more exposure, from the example. Doesn't sound like an example to me.
• Alan Scott is probably an example. I don't know how prominent he is, but he at least seems popular enough.

Edited by AnotherDuck on Oct 31st 2018 at 9:41:13 AM

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From Masterchef

By the virtue of being the winner, Christine is not a "minor character," so she is disqualified.

Luca briefly appeared in Season 3 and was well-liked back then, so he counts for Season 3. He does not count for Season 4 for the same reason as Christine.

Edited by RAlexa21th on Nov 15th 2018 at 12:43:39 PM

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Why would any of the contestants be a 'minor character'? The show is entirely about those contestants. All of them. The point is to eliminate contestants until there's a winner, so no contestants should be 'minor'. The show wouldn't exist without them — both the ones who are eliminated and the eventual winner.

Edited by Wyldchyld on Nov 23rd 2018 at 9:01:33 AM

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.

Question: Is it possible for a non-character to be an Ensemble Dark Horse? YMMV.The Stanley Parable has the "eight game" from the game's demo listed because it's a very popular feature (even made into an app) despite not being a major part of the demo and not at all featured in the actual game besides a small reference. The other example listed is the "Adventure Line", which is a bit more ambiguous because, though it's just a line on the ground (and on the walls...and the ceiling...), it's almost treated in-game like a character, at least by the Narrator.

Edited by WarJay77 on Dec 4th 2018 at 1:29:00 PM

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So, EnsembleDarkhorse.Dragon Ball. I made a discussion post here, but I'm mentioning it in this thread.

Now, it's certainly Loads And Loads Of Characters so in some instances I'm fine with a formerly-major character being listed (like, say, Yamcha, who gets more popular as he gets more irrelevant). But a lot of these characters have their popularity directly tied to their prominence (like Android 17, whom I just cut, or movie villains who are the main character of the media they are in). Not to mention, a lot of the characters are very much Base Breaking Characters (hello, Broly) and even more are explicitly Germans Love David Hasselhoff.

I found this ranking here but I don't know the data behind it to know how reliable it is, but it seems legit.

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No, it has to be a character.

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So the button is out, what of the line? It's treated by the Narrator like it's alive even though it's just a line and seems to have free will with where it goes and what it does

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Hi, I'm new to the forum discussion here, so I apologize if I do anything wrong.

I would like to ask whether Yuri Watanabe from the video game Spider-Man (PS 4) qualifies as an Ensemble Dark Horse? For info, Yuri Watanabe was a rather obscure comic book character but exploded in popularity with her role in the game. She's Spider-Man's Friend On The Force who occasionally provide Spidey with support and useful info, and her chemistry with Spider-Man (plus the fact that both their voice actors are married to each other) is why she's popular with many fans in that game, hence why I thought she qualifies as a darkhorse.

But a troper named Master Hero didn't think so. He removed the entry by reasoning that an ED "is about minor characters who do little in the main narrative, not "any popular character who isn't the protagonist."" and that Yuri doesn't qualify because she often supports Spidey with important info, which is why she arguably is a major character and thus not a Darkhorse.

I checked the ED page itself for the definition. On the page itself, it said that an ED is "a side character making up part of the ensemble, either a non-lead secondary character or a mere Flat Character, who then becomes unexpectedly popular with the fandom..." Nothing in it says that an ED shouldn't be "any popular character who isn't the protagonist". Personally, I thought Yuri qualifies as a former. She's not a Flat Character, but she definitely is a non-lead secondary character, because her role in the game is just helping Spider-Man out from time to time, she doesn't play a role in Spidey's character development on the overarching story.

Another troper named Fried Warthog seems to agree with me, but Master Hero said that we take it to the discussion. Well, it's been a month now and nobody replies anything there. And with the release of the game's second DLC (Turf Wars) that puts Yuri Watanabe in the limelight, I guess it doesn't mean anything anymore, but still, I really would like to know what should or shouldn't qualify as an Ensemble Dark Horse. Or at least a clear definition about which character could qualify as one, because right now I believe that an ED can be any character who's NOT the lead characters in the story's main narrative.

Edited by Willy2537 on Dec 14th 2018 at 11:13:05 AM

Yuri is a secondary character. The DLC is just a minor optional part of the game.

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The thing about "unexpectedly popular" is that it relies on their prominence in the work. A character is generally expected to be popular relative to her prominence. Sometimes a little more, sometimes a little less. This is the main reason it's not just any popular non-main character.

For that reason, to qualify as an Ensemble Dark Horse they have to be significantly more popular than their character prominence tier. A secondary character would have to be at least as popular as a primary character, and a tertiary character would need to be as popular as a secondary character. Roughly speaking, since character prominence isn't a strict tier list (but it helps for understanding).

Previous appearances can be taken into account, but usually just as a disqualifier. This is because if they're less prominent in a previous work, it doesn't change that they're more prominent in the work the trope is supposed to apply to, so their expected popularity is on par with the new work. On the other hand, if it's a character who's already got a fanbase, you'd expect that character to be popular in a new work even if she only has a small role.

For this character, the voice actors being married raises the expected popularity (it provides a closer connection to the main character even if only on a meta level, and fans are often eager to transplant RL relationships into those actors' works), which means she's less likely to be an example.

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Yuri Watanabe and Spider-Man's voice actors in-game might be one of the reasons why Yuri becomes popular, yes, but some players don't realize that at first. They've taken a liking to Yuri as much as, say, MJ Watson herself, because of the well-written interactions between Yuri and Spidey in the game. The voice actors being married is a plus, yes, but personally, I don't think it factors in much about why players liked Yuri. They like her even before they know her voice actress is married to Spidey's.

Also, Yuri was never intended to be one of the main characters (in this page http://marvels-spider-man.wikia.com/wiki/Yuriko_Watanabe, she's explicitly stated to be a supporting character). Aside from the DLC where she is the focus, Yuri only appears in some missions and occasionally calls him to provide some info. The main story itself is driven by the three main characters (who are also playable), Spider-Man himself, MJ, and Miles Morales, yet Yuri is arguably more popular with some players than MJ despite not really making a meaningful impact on the main story.

Edited by Willy2537 on Dec 15th 2018 at 10:06:49 AM

That's a better argument. If she's comparable to the other main characters, then she qualifies. That's context that needs to be in the example.

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I can't tell if Kei from Moyashimon is minor enough to be an Ensemble Dark Horse. Anime-wise at least, she appears early on, disappears until the second-to-last episode of season 1, and appears several times in season 2. In the narrative, she's the protagonist's childhood friend and, I guess, also an Implied Love Interest.

Edited by RAlexa21th on Dec 15th 2018 at 4:51:07 AM

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At that point, it seems like she's prominent enough that she has to be more popular than the series itself to count. Can't say I've seen many characters of that level of popularity.

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So, she isn't an Ensemble Dark Horse?

No idea, but probably not.

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If there are no more opinions, I'll remove the Stanley Parable example.

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