Pages that need the YMMV banner

Using Jyu Oh Sei as an example, because I'm familiar with it, and because the below tropes were just pulled from the main article into the YMMV section and it left me just a little bit baffled...

Adaptation Decay: The anime is different from the original manga. It's not YMMV, it's a fact. I can list you the differences. Whether it's different in a good way or not, that is YMMV but last time I looked Adaptation Decay wasn't about making a judgement on quality. The last paragraph of the article is still about how Adaptation Decay doesn't necessarily mean "bad." Maybe you should finally decide what Adaptation Decay means and then declare it subjective or objective?

Ass Pull: Actually, yes, that's how it comes across. There's no clear explanation as to why it happens and why then. Hence asspull. Again, whether it worked or not, that would be YMMV, but it's still an asspull (in the anime, anyway). Maybe there are other examples in other shows which are YMMV, but here it's hard to see how it would be.

Ho Yay and Foe Yay: so yes, Ho Yay is on the whole subjective. But here we have a guy constantly touching another guy, telling him he's pretty and getting into his face as if trying to kiss him. Maybe it's YMMV whether it's "yay" or "nay" but seriously. It's apparent enough not to be expelled into a "well it kinda depends on your POV" section.

The Masochism Tango: again, why? It's not YMMV, it's spelled out pretty clearly and it's an important aspect of Karim's characterization.

Scenery Porn: okay, what. Seriously. If this is YMMV then why does the trope even exist?

Unfortunate Implications: the example posted in Jyu Oh Sei is flawed (whoever posted it hadn't paid much attention to the story) but that aside, seriously - is Unfortunate Implications YMMV in every single instance? Even when the unfortunate implications are glaringly blatant? Or when they're deliberately invoked and lampshaded?

Come on. One size does not fit all. How about re-thinking this YMMV craze?

edited 29th Jan '11 2:24:47 PM by Barano

Is Memetic Mutation really supposed to be YMMV?

Ho Yay and Foe Yay were recently redefined as fully objective, the subjective parts were split off as Ho Yay Shipping and Foe Yay Shipping.

Fighteer even removed the banners once, now they were just accidentally put back with the Fanspeak Mistake. They shall be removed again.

^^

I'd file Memetic Mutation more under Travia. Strolling through this thread, I have the feeling a lot of Tropes should actually go under the travia namespace.

For Ho Yay, this is a trope about subtext and not all people take the same from it.

Adaptation Decay is the negative form. Decay is a word with entirely negative conjunction. Changes are always made between different media, but the positive, or better, neutral trope would be Adaptation Distillation. And we also have a trope were the cutting of a lot material does not hurt the story greatly, it is even linked in the last paragraph -Pragmatic Adaptation- . It goes on YMMV because in which category which adaption falls is very dependable on the person.

I don't see how Unfortunate Implication could ever not be subjective. Just because you see a connection between a character and say, a negative stereotype doesn't mean that I see it.

I agree on Scenery Porn and Ass Pull though. I'd file the first one under trivia too, since it isn't story related but the second is just a normal trope. The point about is that it haven't even been hinted before in the story, so I don't see how it could be subjective. If there would be even the faintest hint before, it would be Chekovs Gun instead.

And, as a general question, why do so many people have such a problem with this chance. It's not like moving something to YMMV is some kind of demotion, as if it wouldn't be a real trope or not as good as any other, it is merely a further step in categorizing the content. IIRC, story goes on main, background information on travia and Audience Reaction to YMMV. Why is this so controversial?

edited 29th Jan '11 4:50:42 PM by eX

It's not like moving something to YMMV is some kind of demotion, as if it wouldn't be a real trope or not as good as any other, it is merely a further step in categorizing the content. IIRC, story goes on main, background information on travia and Audience Reaction to YMMV. Why is this so controversial?
Probably because there are some people that have the attitude that it is a demotion. I have seen some people that have said that they'd love to purge anything that is YMMV. And there have been some people that have simply been deleting stuff that is YMMV without moving it (and thankfully, getting banned for that.)

Or they're worried it's some sort of slippery slope thing, like first it's going to be moved, then it's going to be deleted, then people are going to start going after other stuff.

People, this isn't the place to be debating these things. There are separate threads for YMMV, Trivia and even one that's attempting to define all the categories, which most tropers are avoiding like the plague. Please take it there.

My main problem with it is that the YMMV tropes are being moved onto a separate page while the objective tropes are left on the main pages. It creates the illusion that the objective tropes are better than the subjective ones because only the objective ones are being left on the work pages.

The objective tropes are more desirable from the point of view of what this wiki is about. This is Word of God stuff, not just things the mods are making up. Eddie, the guy who owns and runs the wiki, has declared that we are primarily about objective tropes in media. The subjective stuff exists on tolerance. We give you alternate pages to play with it, only as long as you don't abuse the privilege.

Now, part of the problem here is that there are still a lot of articles being bounced around the YMMV index, which is causing the banners to get automatically added. I am going to hold off on removing them until that settles.

Fighteer, that's a pretty Unusual Euphemism for "better" you're using there.

I'm just cleaning out Shipping Tropes. I moved most of them to the YMMV index, but some of them don't qualify (or are at least questionable). Many of those have the banner when they shouldn't.

Regular Tropes (that need the YMMV banner removed):

• Anchored Ship - people in canon that can't be in a relationship
• Faux Yay - pretending to be gay
• Foe Yay - canon implied romance between enemies
• Ho Yay - canon implied romance between same sex friends

Index (banner is unnecessary):

• Shipping Tropes

Half-and-Half (examples include both fan reactions and canon)

• Ghost Shipping (has YMMV label) - shipping or being in love with an undead character
• Twincest (has YMMV label) - shipping or being in love with one's twin (or triplet, quadruplet, etc.)
• Unequal Pairing (has no label) - shipping or being in love with someone with a significant power difference (possibly subjective)

Terms (includes Fan Speak and types of Fanfic)

• Het (has YMMV label) - opposite of gay or "Ho" as in Ho Yay
• Hurt/Comfort Fic (has YMMV label) - Exactly What It Says on the Tin
• Slash Fic (has YMMV label) - Fanfic about shipped characters, usually of the same sex and including eroticism

Fanfic Trope:

• Ukefication (has YMMV label) - converting to a cute artstyle / making a gruff looking character into a cute one

Reactions to Fan Reactions:

• Ship Sinking (has label) - Author creates a relationship in order to break up a ship
• Ship Tease (has label) - Author intentionally adds fuel to a ship

There's also one oddball: Official Couple. While all the examples are about who is actually a couple in canon, it seems to only exist as an opposite to Fan-Preferred Couple, as just naming whoever happens to be a couple in a work would be People Sit On Chairs. I could see an argument either way on whether this is YMMV.

edited 29th Jan '11 11:19:41 PM by BigT

I'd say Scenery Porn is an objective trope. Something like Film.Avatar used it as the primary selling point of the film.

Some of those Shipping Tropes keep getting the banner back - I know I'm not doing it. Scenery Porn needs some debate; I'm not sure that it's completely objective as written.

Food Porn and Costume Porn are objective, whatever happens, they should go together.

I personally didn't see any disagreement ever about listing a work as having Scenery Porn.

K. Done.

Well, Old Man Ho Oh removed one lot of examples of the YMMV page using this as edit reason:"Umm, how are these audience reactions?" Here are the tropes he removed:

• Flip-Flop of God
• Getting Crap Past the Radar
• Hand Wave
• Household Names
• Jossed
• Leslie Nielsen Syndrome
• The Original Series
• The Producer Thinks of Everything
• Rated G for Gangsta
• Recycled Script
• Recycled Premise
• Sci-Fi
• Sci-Fi Ghetto
• Screwed by the Lawyers
• Screwed by the Network
• Single-Target Sexuality
• Spoiler
• Spotlight-Stealing Squad
• Start to Corpse
• Strangled by the Red String
• Stylistic Suck
• Tom Hanks Syndrome
• The Un-Twist
• Unresolved Sexual Tension
• Waggle
• Word of Dante
• Word of God
• What If?

edited 30th Jan '11 12:14:34 PM by MagBas

Uh, some of these are normal tropes, but some are audience reactions in the sense that they are not in-universe events.

There are also some that are techically not tropes to be listed on work pages, but there is nothing wrong with potholing them. Like Word of God. There is nothing wrong with an entry like:

• Pietà Plagiarism: The director admitted that this and that scene referenced pietàs.

But if it is listed on the YMMV page, the whole line would get an unnecessary scale.

edited 30th Jan '11 12:24:52 PM by EternalSeptember

Because a bunch of stuff got dumped on there by accident when Fast Eddie got rid of the Fanspeak page. We're working on cleaning it up. Removing the tropes that wound up on there by accident, like those is part of it.

I don't understand why In Name Only and Spiritual Successor are YMMV. Both of them are objectively verifiable by checking the works' contents and staff that worked in them.

See the post directly above you.

Why are all of the shipping tropes listed as YMMV? They're clearly Audience Reactions.

In fact, why is there so much overlap right now between Audience Reactions and YMMV?

See this thread.

Something of an aside, since we get so much new threads these days that are purely "Why is trope X YMMV?", wouldn't it be useful to include a link to this thread in the YMMV banner?

At least until the dust settles and we have something of a consensus on how to handle the subjectives/Trivia/Audience Reactions etc?

Isn't Ensemble Dark Horse a trope about a large number of fans liking a relatively minor character? Wouldn't that make it non-subjective?

edited 31st Jan '11 4:24:36 AM by Myrmidon

Good question... It's based on popularity, though...

Is One Of Us really subjective? Or is it a "YMMV on whether they're notable or not" thing?