Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

Or like waiting for the end of Scooby-Doo! Mystery Incorporated. Pericles seems like a monster, until the end.

That's not me who add those dealers. Just saying that to protect my rep as a troper. Another question: Did you wait until Eli David is dead to add him in NCIS?

I don't watch NCIS, but it's my understanding Eli had his arcs wrap up at points.

Look, the point I'm trying to make is Todd was introduced in the final season of the show (okay, it was split up, but still). he is an integral part of its storyline until now, and will obviously play a role in the final episode.

Seriously it's one episode. I don't know why he has to be added right now. Nobody is saying that he doesn't qualify, just to wait one more week. I'll probably vote for him when the time comes, but the time isn't now. We just want an accurate writeup.

The rule is, wait until the end of the arc or season before adding examples. We had plenty of people jump the gun and add entries only for the last two episode to throw them so far out of CM territory it looked like they never should have been considered in the first place.

The mods have backed that rule; wait for the last episode of the season, period. It's not that hard to follow.

Been going back through the pages. We never did get final votes on Elementary!Moriarty or the Agatha Christie examples. I hate to nag, but I'd really like some votes (yay or nay) so that I can either put them up, or confirm that they definitely do not count. I know that both posts warn heavily of spoilers, but unless you're watching Elementary or planning to read some sixty year old mystery novels I wouldn't think that would warn everybody off.

@forsetipurge

I'm going to back everybody up on this. We wait until the character's arc is over. Once they are dead, imprisoned, or otherwise out of the story, then we talk about them. Sometimes even then we have to go back and correct mistakes—characters do break out of jail, come back from the dead—but generally speaking it is a policy that has served us well and cut down on bad examples. There is nothing wrong with waiting one more week to list Todd. Can you imagine how silly you'd feel if the finale did give him a redeeming quality?

@16813: Vote yes on Bob Rusk and Uncle Charlie; thinking no on Franz Kidler since it sounds like the most horrible stuff is offscreen villainy.

@16848: Good rewrite for Baron Ryoval. Admiral Vorrutyer and Prince Serg should both be cut unless someone can explain what they do onscreen.

@16856: Orlok and Vess get a yes vote from me.

@16296: Good entry for Top Dollar; vote yes on Ferriman and good entry for him; you should probably state the Serial Killer's real identity from Mindhuters but other than that looks good. Sid 6.7 I'm going to have to vote against. I just can't believe that an AI composed of some of the most evil people on the planet isn't going to end up being a mass murderer. His moral agency sounds shot to hell since he sounds designed to be a monster, he just wasn't supposed to be designed smart enough to actually find a way to perform his killings. It's like mixing together Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Mengele, Charles Manson and Geoffrey Dalmer, and then saying to the resultant mutant-hybrid, "Now don't be getting up to any whacky shenanigans you crazy kid, you."

@16970: Cut the Troll Fic villain; cut bother Bonkers examples; cut the For Better Or For Worse examples and the Kirby example; cut everyone but Verminous Scum from Captain Planet. Did he seriously plant a nuke in Jerusalem? I'd watch myself to confirm, but after I saw a few episodes of Captain Planet in middle school, my brain and eyeballs entered into a murder-suicide pact, so it'd probably be best not to provoke them again.

@16981: Cut Don Ciccio as well. Dude sounds like he's not anywhere near heinous enough.

@17018: Since the season is over, I'm good with Moriarity counting from Elementary. Also agree that those Agatha Christie villains count. Also, those write-ups you wrote for Morgawr, Cree Bega, Gates, Gauron, and the three Cal Leandros examples all look good to me.

edited 23rd Sep '13 7:34:50 PM by OccasionalExister

Will start working on write ups for Elementary!Moriarty and the three Agatha Christie villains then.

I'm also going to say cut to Sid 6.7. I'm with Exister on this one. If you blend the personalities of a group of the most evil people already on the planet, what you get is going to be one evil SOB. Since the character was created this way, he can't be said to possess anything approaching genuine moral agency. I'm reminded somewhat of the Padan Fain/Mashadar/Mordeth example. Which reminds me—I keep forgetting to touch up and post the Ishamael write up. In the meantime, I'm going to ask for Semirhage to be cut.

EDIT: Actually, to heck with that. Here's an Ishamael rewrite, which we can replace the current Wheel of Time duo with. We decided this needed doing, and then just didn't do it. No more procrastinating.

• Wheel Of Time gives us Ishamael (aka Elan Morin Tedronai, Ba'alzamon and Moridin). A scholar and philosopher, Ishamael determined that The Dark One was destined to triumph over good at the end of time. With that in mind, he signed on with The Dark One's forces, setting himself up as The Antichrist and Evil Counterpart to his former friend, Lews Therin, whom he eventually drove to suicide. Sealed in Shayol Ghul, Ishamael managed to free his spirit, and eventually his body. He makes the life of Lews Therin's reincarnation a living hell while in his Ba'alzamon identity, tormenting him with nightmares and doing everything in his power to make him miserable, while sending his troops to lay waste to the world. Following his apparent death, he is resurrected in a new identity (Moridin), and takes over leadership of The Dark One's armies, brutally punishing the rest of The Forsaken when they fail. Unlike the rest of The Forsaken, who think they will rule the world when the war is over, Ishamael believes that The Dark One is an Omnicidal Maniac, and is cool with that. In fact, it's why he agreed to work for him in the first place—he's a Death Seeker and looks forward to The End of the World as We Know It, viewing it as the chance for a murder/suicide on a cosmic scale. Driven by delusions of godhood, and the occasional belief that he is The Dark One, even the other Forsaken give Ishamael a wide berth.

It now incorporates his Death Seeker tendencies and the fact that the Dark One may have lied to him about wanting to end the world (which doesn't change the fact that Ishamael still signed on for the end of the universe). Thoughts?

EDIT: I've removed Semirhage from the YMMV page, and cut an edit somebody made trying to DILP Ishamael, leaving a note telling people to bring any concerns they have to this thread.

edited 23rd Sep '13 7:02:26 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

for the Ishamael writeup.

for the writeup

Someone added these to the YMMV page for Breaking Bad.

• The drug dealers who get little kids to do their dirty work, making them kill to prove themselves and murdering them if they become a liability aren't exactly boy scouts, but the smile that they flash Jesse after they think they've gotten away with it shows that they truly have no remorse.
• Todd Alquist.

Todd, of course, is not supposed to go up until the end of the show. And of course, the other example violates no groups.

I have really had it with the Breaking Bad fandom at this point. I really don't care how much they hate Todd. They can wait a freaking week to put him up. And when he does go up, might I add, it'll be an actual write up, not a Zero Context Example that says nothing whatsoever about him.

edited 23rd Sep '13 7:39:13 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

The drug dealers are just two guys.

And yet the example does not specify that at all, making it read like a violation of "no groups". Not to mention that what they do sounds pretty tame compared to what the rest of the cast gets up to. I'm not sorry about cutting that. Heck, they were cut this morning by Lightysnake for God's sake, only to be readded moments later.

Then someone get a mod to remove the entry from Live-Action TV because I'm the one who readded the entry.

The request to have them cut is in the Edits to Locked Pages thread. Due to volume it hasn't been processed yet, but the voting is already done.

it's already been posted in the Edit thread to cut the dealers

Anyway, possible write up for Elementary!Moriarty. The character is a Walking Spoiler, but I'm going to try and limit the spoilers in the entry as much as I can:

• Elementary has its version of Moriarty, aka Irene Adler. A self-described "Assassin Pimp", Moriarty both arranges murders at the behest of others, and to fullfill a private agenda. In "M" Moriarty sends Sebastien Moran to kill two people by suspending them from their ankles and draining all of their blood, then betrays Moran to Holmes in the hopes that Holmes will kill him. In "A Landmark Story" Moriarty has Daniel Gottlieb shock a man to death by hacking his pacemaker, drop an airconditioner on another, and use killer bees against a woman with a severe allergy; by threatening Moran's sister, Moriarty is able to force Moran to commit suicide. Moriarty also has Isaac Procter kill a man who served as a Body Double, then sends assassins after Procter in "The Woman", before killing him personally. Outed in "Heroine", Moriarty kidnaps the daughter of a Greek shipping tycoon, in order to force said tycoon to murder two Macedonian nationals, all to prevent Macedonia from joining the EU, and make a killing by investing in Macedonian currency. Couple this with the fact that she is responsible for causing Holme's breakdown in the first place and that her crush on Holmes is more about viewing him as a piece of artwork than anything else, and there is no reason to consider Moriarty anything other than the very worst that Elementary has to offer.

How's that?

edited 23rd Sep '13 8:19:43 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

Rewrite time.

This one is called 'Richard Laymon writeup or why I hate you all.'

• Roy from Richard Laymon's The Beast House is a sadist, pedophile and murderer who molested his daughter and tortured his wife before going to prison. After his release, Roy sets about hunting down his ex and his daughter with full intention of revenge. On the way, he murders an innocent couple and kidnaps their young daughter, using her as a sex toy on the way for his personal satisfaction.

In case they get qualified, here're the classic cinema writeups, plus another I missed a long time ago

• In Stoker we are introduced to Uncle Charlie Stoker after the death of heroine India's father. Initially charming and charismatic, Charlie murders the house's caretaker, and then his own aunt after he believes she'll expose him for what he is: a murderer who buried his younger brother alive when he was younger. He even murdered his own brother, India's father, and staged his 'car accident.' He later tries to seduce India and attempts to murder her mother

• Uncle Charlie of Shadow of a Doubt is a remorseless Serial Killer who targets rich widows to kill them for their money, viewing them as cows who deserve to be slaughtered for living pointless lives. When his niece, named after him as Charlie learns his secret, Uncle Charlie attempts to murder her in increasingly desperate ways, from pushing her down the stairs, to trapping her in the garage with a running car engine and finally yanking her on the train with him, intending to push her to her death when it goes fast enough.

• Bob Rusk from Frenzy is one of the most deranged villains in an Alfred Hitchcock film. Known as the 'Necktie Murderer,' Rusk is implied to rape his victims, before graphically strangling them to death with his tie. Rusk displays his violent compulsions multiple times, but even frames one of the only supposed friends he has for the murders with a dead woman's item, perfectly willing to let innocents take the fall for him.

• Franz Kindler, played by Orson Welles in the 1946 film The Stranger is a Nazi war criminal fleeing his complicity in the Holocaust who adopts a new identity as Charles Rankin in a sleepy suburban town. When a repentant Nazi tracks him down, Kindler promptly murders him and then poisons his wife Mary's dog Red when Red sniffs around where he buried the corpse. When a Nazi hunter named Wilson tracks Kindler down, he reveals to Mary her husband's complicity in the Holocaust and how Kindler helped to develop the final solution, showing her images of his atrocities. In a final attempt to keep his secret, Kindler tries to murder Mary. When stopped, Kindler protests he was Just Following Orders which Wilson rejects by saying "you gave the orders."

edited 23rd Sep '13 10:09:02 PM by Lightysnake

Okay for Scream, Jill and Roman are the only keepers right? In that case Roman needs expansion:

• Scream 3 has the worst of the lot so far in Roman Bridges, Sidney's half-brother, who is revealed to be The Chessmaster of the entire series, masterminding Billy and Stu's original killing spree to get revenge on Sidney's mother for rejecting him as her son.

Other than removing Charlie, is there anything to be done for Jill's entry?

• But he loses his title in Scream 4. Sidney's cousin Jill is easily the worst villain in the series, a deranged copycat killer who wipes out her own friends in a twisted attempt to become Sidney and hijack her fame. She even has her own mother killed and is easily the most Ax-Crazy of the Ghostfaces so far. Her partner in crime, horror geek Charlie, may be the only Ghostface not to qualify as a Complete Monster. While he is a murderous psychopath, he was suckered into it by Jill, and his woobieish expression when he's killed by his own partner/girlfriend makes it seem like he was in way over his head.

edited 23rd Sep '13 9:53:31 PM by TVRulezAgain

That needs a serious despoilering.

@Lightysnake

I assume that Roy's entry will replace the current Beast House entry which tries to claim three qualifiers?

Write ups look fine. Still don't think Kindler qualifies, but I have no stylistic issues.

No problem. if Kindler doesn't qualify (That's you and Exister against) that's fine. Just did the writeup just in case since the other three were keeps.

For Scream...give me a bit to expand Roman. Offhand, I'd also say Billy Loomis qualifies as well, on reflection.

Few other things...I'm submitting Largo's old rewrite to replace Professor Moriarity. That got lost in the shuffle.

All the People Under the Stairs' Mommy and Daddy need an entry.

• Mommy and Daddy from The People Under the Stairs are a pair of incestuous siblings who are known as cutthroat landlords in a poor neighborhood, evicting tenants ruthlessly. In private, they're worse. Mommy and Daddy abduct children from poor families and abuse them hideously, cutting out 'the bad parts' from them and imprisoning them under the stairs while killing any intruders and feeding them to the imprisoned and starving kids. When the hero, Fool, is lost in their house, they spare no effort to try to find and kill him while abusing their abducted child Alice. when Alice discovers the truth and rejects Mommy as her mother, Mommy tries to kill her, screaming at her to burn in hell.

Sundowner from Metal Gear Reveangeance

• Sundowner from Metal Gear Rising: Revengeance is a Blood Knight war profiteer who seeks to spread War for Fun and Profit around the world, believing it to be the natural state of mankind. He begins the game by killing the President N'mami of the country Raiden begins in whilst being needlessly sadistic, and has street children kidnapped while their brains are removed into cyborg casings while they are aware the whole time. We see hundreds of these brains as well. They re forced to commit endless atrocities in virtual reality before they are sent off to commit them in the real world as well.

And I took a look at the Monster.Rurouni Kenshin page...okay, need a rewrite, stat. For Jin-E Udo

• Jin-E Udo is a remorseless Blood Knight and Serial Killer who lives for murder. In the era of peace, Jin-E makes his living as a Psycho for Hire assassin who goes out of his way to slaughter as many human beings as possible for the fun involved. when he encounters Kenshin Himura again, Jin-E becomes obsessed with turning Kenshin into a killer like him and kidnaps his Love Interest Kaoru Kamiya. When Kenshin arrives, Jin-E uses his powers of hypnosis to freeze her in place and force Kenshin to break his vow to never take another life as the hypnosis will be lifted only if Jin-E dies and Kaoru's body will shut down within minutes.
• Kanryu Takeda is a Sleazy Politician and Smug Snake who earns a massive amount of profit by peddling opium to hook innocent and desperate people on. To this end, he enslaves Doctor Megumi Takani, having killed her mentor, and forces her to create a drug to destroy lives. Kanryu, when his elite bodyguards, the Oniwaban Group are defeated, Kanryu unveils a Gatling gun and opens fire on their leader, killing the rest of the group when they try to save him. Kanryu simply gloats how invincible he is before trying to kill everyone else, bragging about how his money gives him the right to do anything he wants.

One entry I wanna bring up...

Magua from YMMV.Last Of The Mohicans

• Magua. Right from the start he's out to kill Alice and Cora, massacres hundreds of British soldiers and American civilians on multiple occasions, oh, and also rips Colonel Munro's living heart out. He gets a small Pet the Dog moment at the end, but almost the entire body count of the movie is directly his doing. In fairness, he does have a dead little sibling for wanting revenge on Munro, who isn't exactly a saint himself. And in fairness, Munro's children have done nothing to Magua, and if ripping the still-beating heart out of the man you hate isn't enough to slake your thirst for revenge, nothing will.

Magua doesn't count at all. He has a legitimate Freudian Excuse in what happened to him. Munro took him from his home and his wife believed him dead and married another. While he goes too far, Magua is too human. Permission to burn?

edited 28th Sep '13 4:18:07 PM by Lightysnake

@ Lightysnake: No, can't say that I have watched the Crow sequels. What does Judah do exactly?

I consider Sid 6.7's moral agency sufficiently debunked. There's some agency in Grimes repeatedly coming to the surface in Sid's mind and informing a large part of his behavior, but he never does take full control. Could Sid be considered Made of Evil (Or at least human evil)?

Re: Jan Valek (John Carpenter's Vampires): Other than the needless "he's the worst vampire in all fiction" claim, does his entry need further amendment? It's pretty accurate otherwise.

Unless anyone else wants to submit a counterpoint that negates his horrible past, I'll request a cut for Lou Ford (The Killer Inside Me) when I submit the other write-ups.

I've amended the write-up for Mindhunters to include the killer's identity under spoiler tags.

• The serial killer in Mindhunters plays cat and mouse games with his victims by infiltrating a group of FBI profilers during a field mission to a deserted island with a makeshift town used as a training ground by the bureau, where they must solve a case involving a fictional serial killer called "the Puppeteer" organized by their supervisor. He sets the island up with an array of boobytraps and puzzles to kill them while watching from within the group to turn them against each other and give himself good sport. His more cruel murders include a victim getting slowly killed with liquid nitrogen from the feet up, and another one burned to death from inside through acid-laced cigarettes. He kidnaps the supervisor (who had been monitoring the group in secret) to an abandoned warehouse on the other side of the island where he proceeds to torture him for days before preparing his corpse and hanging it up for the trainees as a sort of perverse puppet. It's only after his identity as Sarah's best friend Lucas is revealed that the true level of his manipulation becomes apparent, and he frankly admits he started his string of murders by killing his parents as a child and now simply enjoys a good hunt for new and more intelligent victims.

I've attempted preliminary write-ups for Roman and Jill. I'm not sure how to go about spoiler-tagging this. Every Ghostface's identity is the film's major reveal. There's almost no way to disclose anything without the entries turning into either walls of white or swiss cheese.

• Scream:
  • Roman Bridger, Ghostface in the third film, revealed as the instigator of the entire series. He's actually Sidney's half-brother, born of Maureen Prescott being raped during her Hollywood career. He decries his birth mother as a whore and stalks her extramarital liasons in Woodboro. He uses the evidence to mastermind Billy and Stu's original killing spree in the first movie, killing Maureen and their own friends, and lets them take the fall. He grows jealous of Sidney's fame as a survivor and sets out to frame her for his own kills. He disguises himself as a low-budget movie director and kills off the movie's crew while tormenting Sidney with mind games of her traumatic past. He tries to pass himself off as tragic victim who is lashing out at the world, but Sidney points out that he's self-deluding himself and simply enjoys killing people, prompting him to fly into a rage. His sole attempt to connect with Sidney during his death is subverted when seconds later he gets up to try to kill them all again.
  • Sidney's cousin Jill Roberts, Ghostface in the fourth film. She's a deranged copycat killer who wipes out her own friends in a twisted attempt to become Sidney and hijack her fame and is easily the most Ax-Crazy of the Ghostfaces so far. She manipulates her lovestruck friend Charlie into helping her, then kills him when he's no longer of use to her so she can be the sole survivor and the center of attention. She even has her own mother killed simply to better emulate her cousin's life with a dead mother. She kills her boyfriend Tevor to take the blame for the massacre, then tries to kill Sidney to complete her status as the new "valiant Ghostface survivor". When she realizes that Sidney survived after they've both been taken to the hospital, she goes on a final murder spree in a last attempt to secure her fame.

edited 24th Sep '13 12:54:18 AM by Morgenthaler

While Top Dollar's an evil gangster, Judah is basically....Satan. He has the 'Crow' of that film, Ashe, killed with his young son with his orders and runs the city like his personal hell, flooding it with drugs. He's a cruel occultist who also figures out how to steal the Crow's powers.

good writeups, though. My only contention is that I think I would include Billy for starting the whole damn mess.

As for Valek...yeah, his entry is quite accurate. Guy is indeed quite the CM

edited 24th Sep '13 1:01:46 AM by Lightysnake

The Sundowner entry looks better than the last one proposed, I give it .