Character pronoun and identity discussion

I'm trying to holler the OP to have it updated but I'm not sure if it's working — the page gets stuck loading.

If a mod sees this, please add to the "resolved" folder:

• The Toaster from The Brave Little Toaster: He/him pronouns. This decision was made in this thread.

And for the Snapdragon and Yamato entries, please change "the thread" to "this thread".

I added the Vivian part as it's not mentioned anywhere else in the page

because it's not true. she's never presented as male. she's either a trans woman or a cis woman depending on the localization.

It's on the previous page, but I'll reiterate it again to add onto : Vivian also consistently self-identifies as a girl, and any descriptions of her as male come from other characters. This is more or less consistent with how trans people were represented in media at the time, to the point where academic studies on LGBT+ representation in media have used her as a go-to example, and the fact that other characters call her a boy doesn't change the fact that she herself identifies as a girl.

Edited by bowserbros on Sep 2nd 2022 at 11:13:26 AM

&I agree.

Vivian is an example of what we now have in Adaptational Gender Identity.

x5 I initially thought Vivian was a man in the Japanese version, however I took a closer look & it was just her sisters misgendering her.

On a slightly unrelated note, fuck Vivian's sisters.

Hey, would there be any merit in listing Kris from Deltarune in the pinned post? I just remembered there was this big debate on their gender and the Undertale Cleanup Thread ultimately decided to treat them as nonbinary (albeit the crowner was specifically for keeping Ambiguous Gender off their character sheet).

i remember that. since you have the discussion for us to cite, i think adding Kris to the OP is a good idea.

Going by neutral pronouns doesn't always mean enby (it could also mean agender for instance), but it does enough of the time that it's a fairly safe guess. Third the above.

I thought non-binary normally encompassed agender, genderfluid, and specific additional genders? That's how I use it for myself, at least.

Agree with including the Kris discussion, though.

Edited by Noaqiyeum on Sep 4th 2022 at 7:09:28 PM

Yeah, nonbinary is anything that isn't strictly he and/or she.

Maybe that's what it means, I thought it was separate, idk.

I agree with adding Kris to the list.

do we need to add Vivian to the OP?

...

Edited by ChloeJessica on Sep 5th 2022 at 10:46:17 AM

We're not aware of any confusion over Vivian's identity. She's a woman in all regions, just in some regions she's explicitly trans and in some she's not.

this post details why i think she should be listed; she's misgendered by the other characters, which misleads some people into thinking she's a man. there's more context up there.

Uh, quick correction to the Kris bit in the pinned: they always use they/them pronouns, the debate was over if that was enough to call them nonbinary or not. Something more accurate would be "They/them pronouns, and is to be treated as nonbinary unless otherwise stated." Maybe better worded, idk I'm tired

As for Vivian, I don't think she needs to be added? There's not much debate about her gender identity from what I understand, it's just a matter of contrasting localizations (for the record, the English version treats her as cis, so examples wouldn't even be talking about her being trans unless it was tropes specific to the versions where she is or audience reactions)

Edit: 'd by in regards to Vivian. Personally I still don't think she should be listed, though it's a valid point.

Edited by Crossover-Enthusiast on Sep 5th 2022 at 2:05:00 PM

Yeah, with Kris the big argument was whether they had an Ambiguous Gender or if they were nonbinary, with the crowner eventually settling on nonbinary.

Per ATT and cleanup question.

Morpheus D. Duvall is a male villain from Resident Evil: Dead Aim who transforms into a Monster Girl for the final fight. On Characters.Resident Evil Umbrella Corporation they are referred as "They". That's pretty much all I know about this.

One troper unilaterally changed everything to "He", which warranted a suspension and a revert, so it needs a discussion which one applies.

It heavily depends on how the game treats the character. If the Monster Girl and Morpheus are treated as different characters, and the Girl is treated as a woman, then She/Her and He/Him should be used to refer to each of those forms. Otherwise, we should use whichever ones Morepheus prefers or, if those are unknown, whichever ones others refer to Morpheus with.

There are a couple of in-game in which Morpheus is gendered: Regular Report No. 1162 and Emergency FAX, both of which use He/Him. I'm not all that familiar with the game, and I'm just going by browsing the Wiki (which uses They/Them). There is also this passage in the wiki:

Wouldn't this explicitly make Morpheus a trans woman, if I'm reading this right?

i don't believe they are ever gendered by themselves or others after their transformation, but given it's all but outright stated they're a trans woman, would prefer to stick with they/them.

If she's a trans woman, why use they/them?