Character pronoun and identity discussion

for the sake of trying to finally put Stop!! HibariKun in the crowner, i went and reread the entire manga. i marked down every instance of Hibari referring to themselves as either a boy or a girl.

it's already been mentioned that boku is used as Hibari's self-referential pronoun, so it's not really an indicator on how Hibari identifies.

there. no cherry-picking. every single instance of Hibari referring to themselves as either a guy or a girl.

given that a core aspect of the plot is that Hibari continually wishes to be seen as a girl and called a girl while out in public, the fact that Hibari only once refers to herself as a guy (and it's clearly to get a rise out of Kousaku), and the fact that Hibari (even if jokingly) refers to herself as people's daughter, wife, and sister, etc, i think that's more than enough reason to use she/her when discussing Hibari.

Edited by EpicBleye on Jun 1st 2023 at 8:44:16 AM

For the sake of putting this to rest, there is something that's been bugging me for a while.

In Face's Music Party, it was confirmed through Word of God that Face has no defined gender in that show. However, Nickelodeon (and by extension, Nick Jr.) has been inconsistent in what pronouns to give the character. In official episode descriptions and on social media, Face is referred to with they/them pronouns, while their character bio on the Nick Jr. website uses no third-person pronouns at all. Further muddying the waters is that in the description of a YouTube reupload of Face's SuperSnowtacular Holiday Special, they're referred to with he/him pronouns.

For comparison, in the original 1994 bumpers where Face originated, and on their appearances in NickRewind, they explicitly used he/him pronouns. So my proposition is to use he/him when referring to the original iteration of the character, and they/them when referring to the Music Party iteration.

EDIT: Forgot to add this, but one of the episode descriptions erroneously referred to Face with it/its pronouns, but it was changed to they/them sometime in the past few months.

Edited by YuriHaru567 on Jun 5th 2023 at 11:33:55 AM

It's always hard to decide on how to handle external contradiction, but this isn't a Toaster situation. It's more complex than that because we're dealing with a "sequel".

I want to ask if there's even enough continuity to establish both versions as the same character, but it probably doesn't matter since he/him for the first and they/them for the second makes sense either way.

FWIW, there is a segment in the first episode of Music Party, "Friendship", that confirms that this iteration of Face is the same as the original incarnation.

Nickelodeon has also taken this stance in a few otherposts on their social media accounts.

Edited by YuriHaru567 on Jun 5th 2023 at 11:17:40 AM

if they're they same character, then they/them should apply in both cases.

we do the same thing with characters like Bridget, where we use she/her pronouns for her in XX despite her not using those pronouns during that game.

Then I'm fine with they/them for Face. It's gonna take me a while to get used to the change, though, since I'm just so used to using he/him for the character pre-Music Party.

EDIT: Also, for more proof, this promo for the show also explicitly confirms that Music Party Face and OG Face are one and the same.

Edited by YuriHaru567 on Jun 5th 2023 at 11:36:47 AM

Aside from the flip-flopping video descriptions and whatever the heck happened on NickRewind, does any media actually address Face's gender? Because we've got claimed WoG flying around everywhere, and two different generations of sources to worry about.

EDIT: My position for the moment is that Face is male and should use he/him pronouns, per NickRewind. I don't think the flip-flopping video descriptions can really tell us anything, because they're inconsistent and dear god, we're dealing with a literal face here and it's 4 AM and I need to sleep.

Edited by bwburke94 on Jun 6th 2023 at 3:59:06 PM

I wouldn't say it addresses their gender, but rather the lack thereof.

Rewatching Music Party, I noticed Face has changed their form quite a few times. Some are obviously supposed to be female-presenting, such as their mermaid form in "Imagination", while others are male-presenting, such as their rapper form in "Confidence."

[sigh]

One Piece recently posted art of all the female characters bathing in a hotspring and playing around in swimsuits, and guess who's among them?

Yamato.

Seriously, Oda? Why? =_=

Edited by Arawn999 on Jun 6th 2023 at 7:15:47 AM

Somebody just edited the Ranma ½ pages, specifically the YMMV and Recurring Characters pages, to refer to Konatsu (a Raised as the Opposite Gender Wholesome Crossdresser in canon) as a transgirl. Has this been decided as official policy?

Edited by WanderingBrowser on Jun 7th 2023 at 12:21:29 AM

I cannot recall Konatsu being discussed before. Does seem like a rogue edit unless there has been some Word of Gay or Queer Establishing Moment in recent years that might reaffirm Konatsu's identity.

Probably just a rouge edit.

Rogue. There's a trope for that.

I mean, I've said it before, but even if Yamato is explicitly confirmed to be a cis woman by Oda himself, if he still goes by he/him pronouns then that's what we're sticking with.

Edited by AlleyOop on Jun 7th 2023 at 12:14:35 PM

Yeah. We'll need something that trumps Yamato declining to bathe with the women because it would be mixed bathing and joining the men while a confirmed trans-woman does join the ladies. A pretty color spread is not that.

Edited by sgamer82 on Jun 7th 2023 at 8:17:45 AM

I think the contradiction is simply a case Oda trying to have his cake and eat it too. Oda writes Yamato as firmly identifying as a man, and as the other characters respecting that. But also Oda reaaaaally likes boobs. So he includes Yamato in horny pinups.

Two months ago, I said revisiting Yamato was a huge can of worms. At the very least, let's see if there's any fandom fallout from the recent art before we commit to a second crowner.

Ainvolve's post said "recently" but the latest one, the color spread, was two and a half weeks ago. Meanwhile the hot spring one isn't even the main series but a High School AU. I know this because I hollered a post about it incorrectly thinking it was being claimed for the then-most recent manga chapter

I think we're good.

ETA: Catching up on the thread I have passing familiarity with Hibari and am voting she/her for Hibari. Never heard of Face before now though so I'd need to read in more detail.

Edited by sgamer82 on Jun 7th 2023 at 2:03:37 AM

Ah, if it's just a High School AU then nothing to worry over, then.

Yamato can present however the fuck he wants and use whatever pronouns he wants because gender isn't restricted to a binary, and that's my final answer for the time being.

Been catching up with the thread and I just noticed this. I actually reversed my take on this a few months ago here.

This 100%. The presentation is marred by Oda being greedy as a creative, but an imperfect presentation is not inherently invalid (Yena is also a clear have-your-cake-and-eat-it-too scenario, and a lot of my earlier confusion was trying to determine whether or not he was still valid).

Edited by Watchtower on Jun 8th 2023 at 8:49:53 AM

i think its fair to request a crowner for both Hibari as of this post and Yena as of this post then, given that both have been sitting with a majority opinion for over a full 24 hours now

as for Yamato, nothing has changed so we don't really need to keep discussing him further. i think we can all agree that the only time the discussion ought to be brought up again is if he outright says that he's a woman or something

fair enough, i definitely agree with that

Edited by EpicBleye on Jun 9th 2023 at 12:40:06 PM

Eh, if Yamato does that I still wouldn't change anything unless he starts calling himself "watashi" or something to that extent.