Character pronoun and identity discussion

early on in the anime, Mordred angrily shouts at Sisigou "Don't call me a woman", but shortly after that when Sisigou calls Mordred a man, Mordred shouts "Don't call me a man!".

so i'm pretty sure that the "joke" is that Mordred doesn't like either one. but at no point in the franchise is they/them ever used for Mordred, and the vast majority of characters just stick with she/her, which Mordred seems to ultimately accept in the vast majority of appearances.

d'Eon's bio is about their skill, which reads:

• Self-Suggestion: A. A strong self-hypnosis. Unique skill. Has a high defense against all spells, skills, and Noble Phantasms that work on the psyche. Sometimes a man, sometimes a woman, they are able to change their physiology...

d'Eon's also says that they are willing to be whatever master wants them to be, whether it's a man, woman, or neither.

though quite frankly d'Eon's existence in FGO is downright insulting, given that in actual history, d'Eon demanded to be seen as a woman and her identity has been totally written over in order to appeal to cisgender otaku in a similar manner to Astolfo.

"There's not a girl alive who wouldn't be happy being called cute." ~Tamamo-no-Mae

I'm leaning towards calling Mordred "she/her" with an asterisk, and a note under Ambiguous Gender Identity noting the complicated history and circumstances of the matter.

based on what has been said i agree she/her with a note somewhere explaining the context might be best, also keeping in mind that using she/her doesn't mean a person is female (i doubt they thought it through this far, but mordred being a nonbinary person who is fine with she/her is a valid option here). i imagine it's another problem created by japanese being a pro-drop language, which makes it much easier to avoid using pronouns in cases like these. if the localization is most consistent with she/her and has removed cases where he/him is used, then my assumption is that's what they've settled on

This is the specific part of the profile I was talking about: I think Mordred was one of few people who knew who Artoria really was, but the profile is written in the way that it masquerades the true gender of King Arthur. Basically "King Arthur" and "Artoria Pendragon" are two different people when talking about King Arthur's rule.

But backon Mordred, this is just something that the Apocrypha Material mentions about her:

I definitely feel for she/her with a note about her Ambiguous Gender Identity.

Continue the bloodline, Fujimaru!

I agree with using she/her for Mordred, partly since she's often referred to as that by other characters. I also agree with leaving a note regarding her Ambiguous Gender Identity.

Edited by RandomTroper123 on Apr 18th 2023 at 1:42:31 AM

I suppose a She/Her with a note to Ambiguous Gender Identity would be alright with what has been brought up.

Victor of HGS S320 | "There's rosemary, that's for remembrance. Pray you, love, remember."

I remember that first scene in the anime, but not the second one. What episode was it in?

That's what I was thinking myself. She/Her and an Ambiguous Gender Identity entry that sums the matter up.

Did some skimming over Apocrypha and we also have Mordred getting annoyed when Jack refers to them as a woman, and of course Mordred referring to themself as "the son of King Arthur" approximately one million times.

From what I can tell Apocrypha only refers to King Arthur in masculine terms, so whether Mordred legitimately doesn't know about the truth of Arthur or is playing along with the kayfabe, I feel confident in the assertion that Mordred's FGO profile is looking at Arthur through that perspective.

I also checked the dub of the Fate Grand Order movies to see how they treat Mordred. Besides the knightly title "Sir Mordred", I couldn't find any instances of Mordred being gendered one way or another. However, it's hard to tell if that is a deliberate choice by the dub or if it is simply because Mordred does not have that much screentime.

Thing to note about King Arthur is that Mordred always refers to "him" as "Father"... even when talking about the summer Archer version of Artoria Pendragon in the FGO's first summer event. I think Mordred falls into the "does know, doesn't care" camp of things (because why would Morgan even hide this info from Mordred?). I think Camelot Singularity shows this best when it comes to the entirety of the Knights of the Round Table. All of them refer to King Arthur and Lion King with he/him pronouns, even when she isn't necessarily hiding who she really is. Agravain even drops a He-Man Woman Hater speech to Lancelot in spite of being really loyal to the Lion King, showing how he views his king as being above everything else.

Sorry if this went off-topic a bit, I just think the way the series talks about King Arthur (as opposed to Artoria Pendragon) makes Mordred's case more confusing. Also on Mordred, the Camelot Singularity does use he/him pronouns to refer to Mordred, when it had previously used she/her pronouns for her in London when it wants to. But like with the whole King Arthur thing, I am not sure what to make of it when compared to everything else.

Edited by TPPR10 on Apr 18th 2023 at 7:17:03 PM

Continue the bloodline, Fujimaru!

While we're on the subject, I should note that the English dub for those Fate Grand Order Camelot movies has the Lion King referred to exclusively with they/them pronouns. So make of that what you will.

Was anyone able to find this scene btw?

i dont think anybody, including myself, is particularly excited about rewatching Apocrypha.

its possible Mordred said it in FGO somewhere and that's what i'n remembering. it could also be possible i'm totally misremembering.

if you can't find the quote then we can just dismiss that point altogether, but i don't think it really changes the conclusion we're at with Mordred.

"There's not a girl alive who wouldn't be happy being called cute." ~Tamamo-no-Mae

Well to be fair the Mordred sections are the best parts of Apocrypha lol.

Personally I'd like it if we could see how Mordred's supposed "treat me as a man but don't be weird about it" policy manifested in the source material, if at all, but I suppose this is just an inherently messy situation where things aren't going to mesh in a satisfying way, so I agree that using footnotes is probably the best solution.

Edited by Moth13 on Apr 24th 2023 at 7:29:12 AM

In the 2022 Some Like It Hot Broadway musical, Daphne's Character Development involves her deciding to keep her female identity, rather than revert to her male identity of "Jerry". If we started an article about this play, which name and pronouns should we use in the introduction?

I've noticed that the page for Pokémon Infinite Fusion refers to any individual Pokémon with they/them pronouns. This clashes with Word of God, which states that Pokémon should go by "it" independently from their gender. Should I go and fix the page?

The best character is always the one-shot disguise.

This was discussed a few pages back consensus seemed to be "it" unless a specific individual Pokémon was clearly gendered.

If Daphne still starts the musical as a man, I think it's fine to refer to her as Jerry. Maybe a mention in the description that she fully adopts the Daphne persona compared to the film.

Unless Infinite Fusion refers to the Pokemon as they/them, I say go for it.

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i think the best solution with Some Like It Hot is to just mention both names for the characters without gendering any of them. it shouldn't be too difficult, considering that the two main characters are with each other for the majority of the musical.

for the rest of the article we should follow the precedent set by Wandering Son, where we would use she/her pronouns to refer to Daphne, even if the tropes talk about from before she came out.

Edited by EpicBleye on May 4th 2023 at 5:32:52 AM

"There's not a girl alive who wouldn't be happy being called cute." ~Tamamo-no-Mae

Raising this one now that Marvel have stopped publishing the Eternals comics for a while and activity on those pages has significantly reduced. Back before this thread started, when the 2021 (linked above) series was launched, there were some entrenched views and reversions, which I didn't feel up to challenging at the time.

For context:

---

• The comic Marvel Universe Eternals, unlike their film counterparts, are million-year old immortals with Resurrective Immortality. With a handful of exceptions, they look like humans.
• The 2021 series established that The Nth Doctor rule also applies - they can choose a new form, changing appearance and sometimes changing gender, when they resurrect. Recent stories have shown some of the core cast doing exactly that.

---

With that in mind, the simple approach seems to be:

• When discussing a particular incarnation/body, use the pronouns the work and its characters used for the Eternal in that form. (I'm not sure 'incarnation' is quite the right word for them, but it's the best one that springs to mind)
• When an Eternal has used different pronouns at different times (e.g. for different incarnations), default to they/them pronouns if discussing the character overall, rather than a particular incarnation.

(I don't think that should be too controversial, especially in light of the pinned post, but some previous changes removed some they/them wording)

Specific character examples, as of now (May 23):

• Sprite (introduced as he/him in the 1970s, currently she/her)
• Ajak (introduced as he/him in the 1970s, currently she/her, also shown as she/her in recent stories with ancient historical flashbacks)
• Makkari (introduced as he/him in the 1970s, currently she/her)

For completeness - another Eternal, Jack of Knives, was also mentioned a few pages back. I think that's settled, though, as Word of God confirmed Jack currently uses they/them (and none of their previous incarnations have been shown anyway).

Fair?

Edited by Mrph1 on May 10th 2023 at 7:41:50 PM

As long as the word 'currently' is not used that makes sense.

Edited by Synchronicity on May 10th 2023 at 3:09:38 AM

It would make sense to use the same rule here as for Time Lords in Doctor Who, as it's a similar case.

I had a dog-themed avatar before it was cool.

Agreed. Has there been previous discussion on that, then?

I don't think we've officially discussed Time Lords, if that's what you're asking.

I had a dog-themed avatar before it was cool.

IIRC there hasn't been any previous discussion on how to refer to Time Lords with incarnations that cross gender lines, but the unspoken consensus I've seen entails referring to specific incarnations with their own pronouns (e.g. he/him for the Fourth Doctor, she/her for Missy, etc.) and using they/them when talking about them in general.

So for instance, you could say something like "the Doctor has fought many foes across their numerous incarnations; for instance, the Third Doctor had many clashes with his arch-enemy, the Master."

Edited by bowserbros on May 10th 2023 at 5:06:59 AM

Be kind.