I've decided to start a cleanup thread for Narm, since it seems to attract a lot of misuse and complaining. Like I said in my ATT post
, "some misuse is easy to catch (e.g. saying a joke is Narm when Narm by definition can't be a joke), a lot of examples fall into grey areas that seem like misuse but it's hard to tell. Like nitpicks that at first glance seem to be valid examples, but feel like stretches the more you think about them."
I think one of the main reasons for misuse is that most people aren't clear on what Narm actually is. To my understanding, it's when a scene is intended to be dramatic, but comes off as cheesy/funny unintentionally. But going by the page description, it's kind of vague what actually qualifies something as Narm. At the top, it says "Narm is a moment that is supposed to be serious, but due to either over-sappiness, poor execution, excessive Melodrama, or the sheer absurdity of the situation, the drama is lost to the point of surpassing "cheesy" and becoming unintentionally funny." But then later on in the same page, it gives a much more vague definition:
Most often, Narm is misused to mean "anything I personally don't think worked," whether or not it was intended as dramatic or comes off as funny. And when a work is high-profile enough, hoo boy, pretty much every scene is Narm to somebody. You can look at the Narm subpages for Doctor Who, Star Wars, and Game of Thrones and find tons of examples of people nitpicking the tiniest of details in a scene and blowing whatever it is out of proportion.
Another problem is that since it's such a subjective trope, it's not clear if there's supposed to be any sort of in-fandom consensus on the example in-question, or if every example is valid under the "it's called YMMV for a reason" excuse, even if the only person who thinks the example is Narm is the troper who adds it in.
I think it needs to be clearer whether nitpicks are valid examples of Narm, especially since nitpicking overlaps so often with barely-disguised complaining. The most frequent offenders for Narm entries I see are complaining, nitpicking, adding jokes, and ZeroContextExamples. I'm going to use Venom (2018) as an example, with my comments in bold:
- The scene of Eddie freaking out on the medical table is presented as the teaser's Money-Making Shot. It... doesn't quite work as intended, which isn't helped by it being sped up, making it look like a parody.
- The final trailer features a more complete version of the clip showing Venom's face "shutter" over Eddie. Whether or not this works or if it looks like a cheap special effect depends on who you ask.
- What makes the freakout even more narmful is that Eddie's screams are different screams playing on top of each other. The actual film lacks this strange effect. This example seems fine to me, but falls into the "The trailer is Narmy but the finished product isn't" doublespeak.
- The leaked trailer revealed some pretty terrible lines (“The guy you work for is an evil person.”). Tom Hardy's horrible New York...ish(?) accent isn't doing the delivery any favors either. And it really does not help that his voice cracks on the reading of "evil person". Thankfully, that line is not in the film proper. Do we keep examples that are purely in the trailers? Also an example of "thing falls flat" instead of "thing is funny."
- Hardy's line reading of "You're not real, you are just in my head." sounds like he's suffering from Elmuh Fudd Syndwome. At worst, he sounds like Adam Sandler's signature Manchild babbling. However there's some speculation that, based on the context of the scene and Eddie's stumbling movements, he's actually drunk, or perhaps even overdosed on medication (considering he was seen taking a bunch of pills, thinking he's sick). That and it could be a case of Reality Ensues, as it's unlikely anyone would keep the mental clarity to speak normally as an alien parasite is slowly bonding with their body. Natter. Goes back and forth between snarky complaints and defending the moment. Also nitpicking.
- Movie trailers cutting quotes out of context to form a new sentence is nothing new, but the editing on the line "you will only hurt bad people" is particularly poor, and it's very easy to hear that the line has been cut together out of separate pieces of dialogue. Not really a dramatic thing, so I don't think it counts as Narm. And it definitely isn't funny, it just falls flat.
- How Jenny Slate's character pronounces "symbiote" note . Plus, her giving firm, equal stress to all three syllables like she's speaking some foreign language. Luckily, this was cut from the theatrical release. Nitpicking and not funny.
- The shot of Eddie crashing straight through a half-fallen tree in the forest that he could just as easily have ducked under comes across as more comedic than cool, as if they just needed an additional gratuitous shot of something breaking. Especially if your mind goes to Victor from Wet Hot American Summer and his inexplicable refusal to jump over anything. It really does not help that the evil bad-guy vehicle chasing him looks like a slightly modified golf cart. The context for this one in the movie is that Venom is taking control of his body and forcing him to blindly flee through the woods to escape the Life Foundation. Context makes it not-Narm. Cut?
- Although it may look better in the context of the full scene, Eddie flying 50 feet into the air on his motorcycle off a slightly steep hill seems to rather severely break the laws of physics. Clearly written before the movie came out. Cut?
- The Jump Scare (on both sides of the fourth wall) where Venom suddenly shouts Eddie's name as he brushed his teeth would have been much more scary if not for the fact that the latter Screams Like a Little Girl. There's also the fact that he somehow throws himself backwards so hard that he crashes into the bathroom wall. Intended as comedic, so it isn't Narm.
- Remember how creepy and awesome that shot from the second trailer of the symbiote forming around Eddie's face in order to eat a guy was? In the third trailer, the potential Nightmare Fuel of that moment is significantly undercut by Venom slobbering all over the man's face with its tongue in an amusingly over-the-top manner. One is reminded of the scene with Patrick licking the yellow popsicle, or perhaps "This is the taste of a liar".... This seems pretty in-character for Venom. I'm not sure with this one.
- The guy who Carlton Drake subjects to Orifice Invasion in the third trailer would have been disturbing, if not for the victim's bland expression. Moment that falls flat; not funny. Cut.
- The symbiote's Venom-face forming on the end of Eddie's arm to talk to him strongly resembles a deranged hand puppet rather than a vicious alien parasite. There's also the fact that they can communicate telepathically, making that sequence unnecessary. Seems fine.
- Venom's violent threats to his enemies are this if they're not aggressively tasteless Black Comedy. His threat to mutilate a man until he's "like a turd on the wind" is particularly groan-inducing, especially coming after a genuinely frightening threat. How It Should Have Ended was even driven by this to make a video on just the trailer for the very first time, in which he mangles a bunch of other sayings. Pretty sure they are intended as comedy, so it's not Narm. Cut.
- The animation of the yellow symbiote just looks like mozzarella cheese come to life. Nitpick. Also... inaccurate? It's more of a mucus yellow.
- After Venom heals Eddie's broken legs, he flatly states "My legs! They were broken... and now they're not broken..."
- "My leg!" Seems fine to me.
- "HOSPITAL!!!! (extremely long pause) Now!" Zero-Context Example.
- Eddie and Anne quite casually discussing cannibalism as one of the symbiote's favorite activities. It's something that would probably sincerely shock and disgust the average person and likely require therapy, and yet it's bandied about like it's a pretty normal occurrence. These kinds of entries are tricky to me. They seem valid at first glance, but there's something off about them. I don't think this one counts if the work itself is treating the moment lightly.
- Any menace from Cletus Kasady is completely undercut by Woody Harrelson's truly ridiculous wig. A common comparison is that it causes him to look like a live-action Sideshow Bob, or a make-up-less Pennywise. Uses complainy word-choice. Otherwise fine.
- Kasady promising that there will be "carnage" after he gets out is so on-the-nose that it feels like it's straight out of a parody. First off, that's not an example of Anvilicious. Secondly, this verges on a nitpick to me. I'm not sure. It's not really funny, just lame.
- The final trade of words between Venom and Riot before the final battle is nothing but total Ham-to-Ham Combat - that and the two symbiotes happen to be Perpetual Smilers, which just gives off the feeling that they don't really give that much of a damn about their goals.
- Towards the end of the film, it's revealed that Venom used to be something of a loser on his home planet, like Eddie. This is his entire reason for wanting to save the Earth. Moment played as a joke, so it isn't Narm.
- Despite angrily forcing Eddie to spit out cooked meats because they're no longer living animals, the symbiote develops a taste for tater tots, and it practically demands that Eddie buy some during a conversation in the ending. The director admitted in an interview that the writers just thought it was funny and put it in the script. It unfortunately invites comparisons to a similar tots-focused scene in Napoleon Dynamite as a result. Entry admits it's a joke. So it isn't Narm.
- Drake having bonded with Riot is treated as a huge shocking twist going into the final battle... except for the fact that the audience was already well aware of it and saw the whole process. It feels very much like a consequence of Executive Meddling to give Riot more screentime. Another tricky example. Seems to fall under "scene doesn't work" instead of "scene is funny."
- Right after Eddie is separated from the symbiote, a rather obvious ADR overdub replaces the intended "fuck you" with the much less vicious "we're done". Not really funny, just falls flat.
- Eddie's "DRAKE! STOP!" sounds less like he's in pain and more like a little kid telling his Big Brother Bully to stop giving him a wedgie. Nitpicking. Most people wouldn't even pay this sequence any mind.
Another issue with Narm is the distinction between moments that are unintentionally funny on their own, and moments that are only unintentionally funny after Memetic Mutation or similar feat. Does the latter truly count as Narm? Because you can make the case that everything that has ever been made can fall under that.
Edited by MisterApes-a-lot on Mar 31st 2019 at 7:06:31 AM
Bumping this. If no one else comments, I'll remove the iffy examples.
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Regarding the one about the box art, I'm hesitant towards saying it counts, as it's not a specific moment, and the wording of the example implies people just mocked it rather than it being funny on its own.
The iffy examples, I'm fine with you removing.
Since a few days have passed and two others have agreed, I'm cutting the iffy examples.
There is no war in Ba Sing Se.
I wanted to bring up this example on YMMV.The Marvels 2023:
- Narm: In the second trailer, Monica describes her power as "I can see [light energy]", which is something anyone with a functioning eyeball can do. She probably meant that she can see light that isn't on the visible spectrum, but the way the trailer is cut makes the line come off extremely silly.
I dunno, the entry reads as kinda Fridge Logic nipicky to me, rather than a thing that's funny on its own. And it's certainly not intended to be dramatic. I know it's YMMV and all, but the scene doesn't read to me as "extremely silly", and the tone of the entry has that "I sure hope somebody got fired for that blunder" feel.
But maybe I'm off-base here. What do you all think?
Cut. "This line is clunky" is not what Narm is. (Also, people do not see light.)
I'd keep an eye on the Marvels page for complaining in the form of YMMV entries.
low-poly Shinri
Found these on YMMV.The Legend Of Zelda Skyward Sword:
- Narm:
- Footage of the Italian version of the game shows how Ghirahim's line, "furious, outraged, sick with anger" ultimately turned out to be too hard to be properly translated to Italian. seems general
- While Link's Item Get! action is fine most of the time, it can look pretty silly in an otherwise serious cutscene. Which Zelda will call you out on during the the Wing Ceremony. The Item Get! pose is pretty bad in the scene where you get the Goddess Harp too. unsure
- During the cutscene after Link finally meets up with Zelda in the past and she tells him The Reveal about her being the reincarnation of the Goddess Hylia Link makes a strange, wide-eyed expression◊ that makes seem like he's looking at something shocking or disgusting instead of finally reuniting with his best friend/possible love interest and hearing the explanation for why she disappeared suddenly. This expression was so weird that it was even subject to Memetic Mutation. unsure
- Link's expression whenever he hears pieces of the Song of the Hero. The fact that he closes his eyes and becomes engrossed just seems melodramatic given the context, and can even make it look as though he's peeing. unsure
- Whenever Fi sings, her face shakes erratically while her mouth hangs open. Many players found the animation comical, even though the cutscenes themselves are meant to convey a feeling of triumph. seems valid
- At one point of the game, Link plays the Harp in the middle of Skyloft, with Fi singing, before he inserts his sword in a lit flower circle. During this entire interactive cutscene, you can watch how the side character Parrow walks in an endless circle in the background, completely oblivious to what you are doing. seems general
- Hylia couldn’t defeat Demise without a mortal (Link) collecting the Triforce… to drop a piece of Skyloft onto the Imprisoned. Why Hylia needed the Triforce to defeat the Demon King when he could be defeated by the equivalent of squishing him with a rock is never explained. unsure
- During the otherwise serious final battle, Ghirahim starts dancing in a bizarre way, in a circle around Zelda, while teleporting and badly humming his own theme song. He's supposed to be doing a ritual to summon Demise, but still. unsure
I don't know anything about the game, but I'll try to help out:
- Seems fine. It's a bad, overly-literal translation of something that's supposed to be serious. Keep.
- If it was lampshaded, it can't be Narm since it was done on purpose. Cut.
- I've definitely seen that screenshot used as a meme before, and it sounds out of place given the context. Keep.
- Not enough context. Hide it for now.
- I'd have to see it for myself, but it sounds fine as written.
- I don't see how that's funny? Cut I think.
- I'm pretty sure that's Fridge Logic, so cut.
- Again, I'd have to see it. Although since the entry goes out of its way to justify what's happening, that makes me think cut.
Fridge Logic isn't allowed on Narm, right? This was added to Narm.Marvel Cinematic Universe recently under Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness, and I don't think it qualifies.
- Sinister Strange is almost impossible to take seriously as a threat when one realizes that, despite how powerful he supposedly is, he's essentially just an incel who kills other incel Doctor Strange's. It doesn't help that his motivation essentially boils down to him wanting a girlfriend (as he demands to be given Christine in exchange for him giving Doctor Strange the Darkhold), as opposed to what one would expect an evil Doctor Strange would want, such as enslave the Multiverse, or even a chance to escape his own ruined universe.
Clear cut.
Also anyone who says "incels are impossible to take seriously" should probably be reminded that they actively murder people here in the real world and one with the powers of Dr. Strange would therefore be quite scray ineed, assuming you care about other people dying.
Clear cut.
Also anyone who says "incels are impossible to take seriously" should probably be reminded that they actively murder people here in the real world and one with the powers of Dr. Strange would therefore be quite scary indeed, assuming you care about other people dying.
And again, "I can't take the entire concept of this thing seriously" is not what Narm is for anyway.
Edited by ArthurEld on Sep 20th 2023 at 1:41:08 AM
I'm Sad Frogerson.
The Marvel Cinematic Universe has a few entries I thought should be brought up here. I recently cut a few that were straight-up intended to be jokes, but were just complaining about them. These other ones I wanted some feedback on:
- The Russos recalled that while watching the film in a theater, they found the audience laughing at multiple moments that weren't intended to be funny (though this is less the fault of the film than it is the audience being conditioned to Whedon-style comedy beats from the Avengers films). In particular, they noted that Tony one-shotting Sam offhandedly after Rhodey's crash drew a round of laughter from the audience, despite it being a very dark scene for all intents and purposes.
- This is worsened by the number of times the Avengers stop fighting to talk to each other. It kills the tension of what is supposed to be a serious conflict. It's even Lampshaded by Falcon:
Now, the first entry can stay, since the directors outright stated audiences were laughing at a scene they weren't supposed to. But the second sub-bullet I'm not so sure about. The airport fight is meant to be more light-hearted than most of the other action beats in the film, and there are a quite a few moments that are played for laughs. It doesn't get serious until the end where Rhodey accidentally gets shot out of the sky. The sub-bullet is more complaining about the banter than explaining why the scene comes across as unintentionally funny.
- The support group sequence comes off as disingenuous. Joe Russo's delivery is fine, but the idea that he's the first example of LGBT feels rather pathetic especially since Valkyrie is in this film. Why couldn't they have made a moment for her instead of some random person we'll likely never see again?
This one is just plain complaining about the film's lacklustre LGBT representation. It doesn't say that the scene comes across as silly or funny, but "disingenuous". I shouldn't have to say it, but disingenuous is not the same thing as funny.
So, should these entries be cut?
Yeah, cut both entries you singled out. They're both misuse.
I'd like to add this from Asteroid City
- Narm: "You can't wake up if you don't fall asleep" is the film's overall message that is expressed during the acting class exercise, and is supposed to connect with the audience's perception of what they're seeing. However, the bizarre way this message is delivered makes it difficult to take seriously, not helped with the fact that the phrase itself borders on being an Ice-Cream Koan that describes the basic fundamentals of what insomnia is.
I find this difficult to take seriously, let alone understand. Cut?
Edited by generation81 on Sep 25th 2023 at 8:43:25 AM
Cut. At most, that's just a non-funny regular flaw.
Yeah, that's just flat-out not what Narm is.
I cut the example from the page.
YMMV.A View To A Kill has this:
- All the scenes of Bond flirting, seducing or going to bed with the Bond Girls in this film are terribly uncomfortable because of Roger Moore's advanced age, who was up to 30 years older than some of the actresses. The scenes of Stacey and May Day sarcastically rejecting his flirting give the impression that he is an Dirty Old Man for them. Moore himself felt the same way: when he finally stepped down from the role of Bond, he cited, among other things, the fact that his characters' love interests were now young enough to be his granddaughters.
This is described as unintentionally uncomfortable rather than unintentionally funny, which is what Narm is supposed to be. The gist of the paragraph is also already sufficiently covered by other more appropriate tropes on the page such as Fetish Retardant, Questionable Casting and Squick. Delete?
Definitely delete.
low-poly Shinri
Found this example on YMMV.Like A Dragon Ishin which I’m unsure of:
- Narm: The whole series may have a problem with non-lethality to an absurd degree, but this game pushes it to the brink since Ryoma's primary fighting methods are an assortment of blades, guns, even bigger blades, cannons, and his bare hands. Most Heat Actions cap off by shooting or stabbing someone with High-Pressure Blood, more than most of the series installments, and it's entirely possible to waltz into a battle and just shoot everyone with your infinite-ammo revolver. And as per usual, no one is worse for wear besides some bruises and aches.
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Done.
Edited by Ayumi-chan on Sep 26th 2023 at 11:05:05 PM
She/Her | Currently cleaning N/A
Cut. Regular flaw + too general.
That's just Gameplay and Story Segregation, but bashy.
Hi
Found on YMMV.The Tommyknockers:
- Narm: The scene in the Vet's office in the miniseries. It would've been alright in itself but the people waiting for the vet had a Komodo dragon, a cobra and an owl. It comes off as more silly than dramatic.
Seems like a partial context example to me.
I guess just hide it for now, then.
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susie.
Looking at these three examples from the YMMV page of the Helluva Boss "Exes and Oohs."
- Narm: As one youtuber noted, it doesn't really make sense that there would be a mob in Hell, considering there is no effective law enforcement. As shown in the sister series Hazbin Hotel, wars take place on a daily basis, and that isn't even getting into the annual Angel purging. Hell is chaos incarnate, so there's no reason for anyone to hide bodies.
- As good as Horvitz is at voicing Crimson, it still feels like he's just talking to himself whenever Moxie shares the screen with him.
- The dildo scene. Even for this show, it's a bit much.
The first and the last seem like they clearly don't qualify; the first is, if anything, Fridge Logic, and the last is a joke that is meant to be over-the-top. I'm not sure about the second. It feels like nitpicking to me as I personally didn't think the characters sounded distractingly alike, but that's very subjective so IDK. Thoughts?
I've been here too long. Regretting choosing this screenname ten years ago.
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Yeah, the guitar one feels particularly bad. Does anyone think that we should rewrite any examples instead of cutting them? If so, which ones?
There is no war in Ba Sing Se.