I've decided to start a cleanup thread for Narm, since it seems to attract a lot of misuse and complaining. Like I said in my ATT post
, "some misuse is easy to catch (e.g. saying a joke is Narm when Narm by definition can't be a joke), a lot of examples fall into grey areas that seem like misuse but it's hard to tell. Like nitpicks that at first glance seem to be valid examples, but feel like stretches the more you think about them."
I think one of the main reasons for misuse is that most people aren't clear on what Narm actually is. To my understanding, it's when a scene is intended to be dramatic, but comes off as cheesy/funny unintentionally. But going by the page description, it's kind of vague what actually qualifies something as Narm. At the top, it says "Narm is a moment that is supposed to be serious, but due to either over-sappiness, poor execution, excessive Melodrama, or the sheer absurdity of the situation, the drama is lost to the point of surpassing "cheesy" and becoming unintentionally funny." But then later on in the same page, it gives a much more vague definition:
Most often, Narm is misused to mean "anything I personally don't think worked," whether or not it was intended as dramatic or comes off as funny. And when a work is high-profile enough, hoo boy, pretty much every scene is Narm to somebody. You can look at the Narm subpages for Doctor Who, Star Wars, and Game of Thrones and find tons of examples of people nitpicking the tiniest of details in a scene and blowing whatever it is out of proportion.
Another problem is that since it's such a subjective trope, it's not clear if there's supposed to be any sort of in-fandom consensus on the example in-question, or if every example is valid under the "it's called YMMV for a reason" excuse, even if the only person who thinks the example is Narm is the troper who adds it in.
I think it needs to be clearer whether nitpicks are valid examples of Narm, especially since nitpicking overlaps so often with barely-disguised complaining. The most frequent offenders for Narm entries I see are complaining, nitpicking, adding jokes, and ZeroContextExamples. I'm going to use Venom (2018) as an example, with my comments in bold:
- The scene of Eddie freaking out on the medical table is presented as the teaser's Money-Making Shot. It... doesn't quite work as intended, which isn't helped by it being sped up, making it look like a parody.
- The final trailer features a more complete version of the clip showing Venom's face "shutter" over Eddie. Whether or not this works or if it looks like a cheap special effect depends on who you ask.
- What makes the freakout even more narmful is that Eddie's screams are different screams playing on top of each other. The actual film lacks this strange effect. This example seems fine to me, but falls into the "The trailer is Narmy but the finished product isn't" doublespeak.
- The leaked trailer revealed some pretty terrible lines (“The guy you work for is an evil person.”). Tom Hardy's horrible New York...ish(?) accent isn't doing the delivery any favors either. And it really does not help that his voice cracks on the reading of "evil person". Thankfully, that line is not in the film proper. Do we keep examples that are purely in the trailers? Also an example of "thing falls flat" instead of "thing is funny."
- Hardy's line reading of "You're not real, you are just in my head." sounds like he's suffering from Elmuh Fudd Syndwome. At worst, he sounds like Adam Sandler's signature Manchild babbling. However there's some speculation that, based on the context of the scene and Eddie's stumbling movements, he's actually drunk, or perhaps even overdosed on medication (considering he was seen taking a bunch of pills, thinking he's sick). That and it could be a case of Reality Ensues, as it's unlikely anyone would keep the mental clarity to speak normally as an alien parasite is slowly bonding with their body. Natter. Goes back and forth between snarky complaints and defending the moment. Also nitpicking.
- Movie trailers cutting quotes out of context to form a new sentence is nothing new, but the editing on the line "you will only hurt bad people" is particularly poor, and it's very easy to hear that the line has been cut together out of separate pieces of dialogue. Not really a dramatic thing, so I don't think it counts as Narm. And it definitely isn't funny, it just falls flat.
- How Jenny Slate's character pronounces "symbiote" note . Plus, her giving firm, equal stress to all three syllables like she's speaking some foreign language. Luckily, this was cut from the theatrical release. Nitpicking and not funny.
- The shot of Eddie crashing straight through a half-fallen tree in the forest that he could just as easily have ducked under comes across as more comedic than cool, as if they just needed an additional gratuitous shot of something breaking. Especially if your mind goes to Victor from Wet Hot American Summer and his inexplicable refusal to jump over anything. It really does not help that the evil bad-guy vehicle chasing him looks like a slightly modified golf cart. The context for this one in the movie is that Venom is taking control of his body and forcing him to blindly flee through the woods to escape the Life Foundation. Context makes it not-Narm. Cut?
- Although it may look better in the context of the full scene, Eddie flying 50 feet into the air on his motorcycle off a slightly steep hill seems to rather severely break the laws of physics. Clearly written before the movie came out. Cut?
- The Jump Scare (on both sides of the fourth wall) where Venom suddenly shouts Eddie's name as he brushed his teeth would have been much more scary if not for the fact that the latter Screams Like a Little Girl. There's also the fact that he somehow throws himself backwards so hard that he crashes into the bathroom wall. Intended as comedic, so it isn't Narm.
- Remember how creepy and awesome that shot from the second trailer of the symbiote forming around Eddie's face in order to eat a guy was? In the third trailer, the potential Nightmare Fuel of that moment is significantly undercut by Venom slobbering all over the man's face with its tongue in an amusingly over-the-top manner. One is reminded of the scene with Patrick licking the yellow popsicle, or perhaps "This is the taste of a liar".... This seems pretty in-character for Venom. I'm not sure with this one.
- The guy who Carlton Drake subjects to Orifice Invasion in the third trailer would have been disturbing, if not for the victim's bland expression. Moment that falls flat; not funny. Cut.
- The symbiote's Venom-face forming on the end of Eddie's arm to talk to him strongly resembles a deranged hand puppet rather than a vicious alien parasite. There's also the fact that they can communicate telepathically, making that sequence unnecessary. Seems fine.
- Venom's violent threats to his enemies are this if they're not aggressively tasteless Black Comedy. His threat to mutilate a man until he's "like a turd on the wind" is particularly groan-inducing, especially coming after a genuinely frightening threat. How It Should Have Ended was even driven by this to make a video on just the trailer for the very first time, in which he mangles a bunch of other sayings. Pretty sure they are intended as comedy, so it's not Narm. Cut.
- The animation of the yellow symbiote just looks like mozzarella cheese come to life. Nitpick. Also... inaccurate? It's more of a mucus yellow.
- After Venom heals Eddie's broken legs, he flatly states "My legs! They were broken... and now they're not broken..."
- "My leg!" Seems fine to me.
- "HOSPITAL!!!! (extremely long pause) Now!" Zero-Context Example.
- Eddie and Anne quite casually discussing cannibalism as one of the symbiote's favorite activities. It's something that would probably sincerely shock and disgust the average person and likely require therapy, and yet it's bandied about like it's a pretty normal occurrence. These kinds of entries are tricky to me. They seem valid at first glance, but there's something off about them. I don't think this one counts if the work itself is treating the moment lightly.
- Any menace from Cletus Kasady is completely undercut by Woody Harrelson's truly ridiculous wig. A common comparison is that it causes him to look like a live-action Sideshow Bob, or a make-up-less Pennywise. Uses complainy word-choice. Otherwise fine.
- Kasady promising that there will be "carnage" after he gets out is so on-the-nose that it feels like it's straight out of a parody. First off, that's not an example of Anvilicious. Secondly, this verges on a nitpick to me. I'm not sure. It's not really funny, just lame.
- The final trade of words between Venom and Riot before the final battle is nothing but total Ham-to-Ham Combat - that and the two symbiotes happen to be Perpetual Smilers, which just gives off the feeling that they don't really give that much of a damn about their goals.
- Towards the end of the film, it's revealed that Venom used to be something of a loser on his home planet, like Eddie. This is his entire reason for wanting to save the Earth. Moment played as a joke, so it isn't Narm.
- Despite angrily forcing Eddie to spit out cooked meats because they're no longer living animals, the symbiote develops a taste for tater tots, and it practically demands that Eddie buy some during a conversation in the ending. The director admitted in an interview that the writers just thought it was funny and put it in the script. It unfortunately invites comparisons to a similar tots-focused scene in Napoleon Dynamite as a result. Entry admits it's a joke. So it isn't Narm.
- Drake having bonded with Riot is treated as a huge shocking twist going into the final battle... except for the fact that the audience was already well aware of it and saw the whole process. It feels very much like a consequence of Executive Meddling to give Riot more screentime. Another tricky example. Seems to fall under "scene doesn't work" instead of "scene is funny."
- Right after Eddie is separated from the symbiote, a rather obvious ADR overdub replaces the intended "fuck you" with the much less vicious "we're done". Not really funny, just falls flat.
- Eddie's "DRAKE! STOP!" sounds less like he's in pain and more like a little kid telling his Big Brother Bully to stop giving him a wedgie. Nitpicking. Most people wouldn't even pay this sequence any mind.
Another issue with Narm is the distinction between moments that are unintentionally funny on their own, and moments that are only unintentionally funny after Memetic Mutation or similar feat. Does the latter truly count as Narm? Because you can make the case that everything that has ever been made can fall under that.
Edited by MisterApes-a-lot on Mar 31st 2019 at 7:06:31 AM
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
To clarify, when I say "thing falls flat", I mean "thing JUST falls flat and isn't funny". Like when people just say "the mood is ruined a bit" or "it hurts the drama". A valid Narm entry can be funny and fall flat, but when I give "thing falls flat" as a cut or misuse reason, it's because the entry is written as only the latter.
I say we clean-up that entry.
I'm Sad Frogerson.
I can say the Team Rocket entry can stay, since I've seen a lot of people admit that scene looked hilarious when it was supposed to make them look intimidating.
They walk like John Lennon.
tfw 0 Fandreas
From YMMV.Mickeys Speedway USA:
- Narm: The constant chatter can make the game seem really silly and childish.
For that matter there's also this entry:
- Narm Charm: It can also be heartwarming as the racers are having fun as close friends rather than competing and have character-specific quotes. (Mickey and Pete butting heads and Daisy apologizing to Donald after hitting him with an item.)
Yeah, you can cut that Narm entry. It's too general and not funny. It's someone not liking the tone. Not sure what the Narm Charm entry is trying to say, but it doesn't really fit the format of "thing works because it's so cheesy".
Okay, this made me laugh just reading it. I'm not exactly sure what the objection is.
She / Her
(x3) I honestly don't think either are examples.
Bringing up the following examples from Tiger & Bunny:
- Narm:
- Barnaby's breakdown scream in the stinger of Episode 18 is more than a little hard to not laugh at, with facial distortion to rival anything seen in Code Geass.
- When Gregory Sunshine escapes his containment, Brahe chases after him in... what could be no better described as a power walk, which just looks ridiculous when taking into account how dangerous and tense a scene it's supposed to be.
Those might both be fine, idk.
She / Her
They seem fine imo.
Bringing up the following example from Star Trek S2 E1 "Amok Time":
- Narm: This exchange:
Spock: It's about biology. Vulcan biology.
- Kirk is essentially trying to say sex without actually being able to say sex due to the standards of television at the time. It works because Spock is supposed to be extremely reticent on this subject anyhow. Additionally, we have some Ambiguous Syntax here, since Vulcan is both the name of the world and of its sapient species. Given this, Kirk's clarifying question does make a bit more sense.
ZCE with natter attached. cut.
Cut that. Doesn't explain why it's funny.
She / Her
That's zero-context, in the sense that it relies on a quote for context, and the second part is a Justifying Edit. Therefore, I'd: cut the latter, keep the entry, and hide it.
Bringing this up from the description for Fun for Some:
But perhaps there's something hypnotic about watching the weather forecast on a perpetual loop, or maybe that educational short film has aged badly and picked up some Narm along the way.
Would the usage of the trope name here count as an example of it?
Edited by DongwaChan on Sep 14th 2022 at 6:55:42 AM
Bringing up the following examples from Narm.Naruto:
- Another filler features Naruto and Kiba escorting a man carrying a valuable piece of art that bandits are after. One of the bandits going after it at the end of the episode is knocked down. For some reason, he figures there's no way he could get it even though he's only had his henchmen knocked out, so he decides to kill everyone by pulling a rope that just suddenly appeared between scenes and making the cave collapse. He's then crushed under a rock, but not the typical "buried in so many you don't even see them coming in contact with the body" way; he is hilariously crushed under a single rock roughly his own size cutting him off in the middle of his Evil Laugh.
- While on the subject of rocks, the villain Raiga from the above filler arc, "The Curry of Life", was buried under an avalanche of rocks... with his arms sticking out of the top, still holding his swords.
- The third movie: The plot cannot be taken seriously because the villain is named "Shabadaba", and he is accompanied by a Camp Gay-looking sidekick. It's especially bad when a character screams his name in rage.
"SHABADABAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!"
- Shabadaba's appearance◊ is also laughable, mostly because his mustache appears to be connected to his hair.
- In the original Japanese, Hikaru's voice actress sounds pretty wooden at several points, especially during sad/crying scenes, which come off sounding quite fake and flat.
- Shabadaba's appearance
- In the first episode, Iruka's dramatic speech is ruined thanks to all the snot coming out of Naruto's nose.
- One of Sasuke's flashbacks about Itachi detracts from the drama of the scene of his having defeated Naruto because the parts of Itachi's face close to the center of the screen appear closer than the parts toward the edges, creating a fish-eye effect.
- Kishimoto is very fond of the fish-eye effect.
- In one episode, Sakura is reflecting on how she wants to become stronger to make up for all the time she spent hiding behind Naruto and Sasuke, with the camera panning around the other characters. What ruins this moment is that while she's talking and dramatic music plays in the background, you can hear the cartoonish sounds of her getting repeatedly punched in the head by her opponent.
- Naruto's having Blank White Eyes after exiting his four-tailed fox mode a combination of this and Nightmare Fuel, since he usually has that expression in comic situations, like after Sakura hits him. It quickly sinks back into Nightmare Fuel when you realize that they are blank and white because they rolled back in his head.
- Previously, while he's still fighting, he swallows a ball of concentrated chakra and inflates. Suddenly. He looks like a giant football with legs. Narm doesn't get much better than this.
- Also, during Naruto's fight with Orochimaru he goes into the Kyuubi state and Yamato's response to this is to say "Shit..."
- Orochimaru's graceless landing after Naruto fires his Wave-Motion Gun is unintentionally amusing.
1st - Keep, but remove the misused bullet point below.
2nd - General example, remove
3rd - I still remember watching Naruto for the first time and having a small chuckle at how Naruto is crying in that scene, so I say keep.
4th - Complaining about a cinematography technique and then a misused bullet point justifying the use, cut.
5th - Sounds like yet another instance of the fanbase shitting on Sakura, cut.
6th - If something quickly veers into Nightmare Fuel then it doesn't count, entry is literally arguing with itself. The bullet point mentions a scene that I'm fairly sure was intended to be comedic, a la One Piece fights undercutting dramatic tension through a funny moment.
Edited by Edgar81539 on Sep 14th 2022 at 5:42:47 AM
Bringing up the following examples from Star Trek S1 E29 "Operation: Annihilate!":
- Narm:
- The death of "Sam" Kirk, considering the reveal of William Shatner with a fake mustache. In all fairness, it worked on 1960s television sets, enough that it did look like a different person; digitally cleaned-up visuals and high definition haven't done the scene any favors in that regard.
- The creatures are somewhat silly. They look like pancakes and bring Tubby toast into mind when they fall down. Though even in-universe, the female Red Shirt notes that "it doesn't even look real".
She / Her
The first comes off as Association Narm to me and I'm unsure about the second. EDIT: Maybe it's too general.
Edited by RandomTroper123 on Sep 14th 2022 at 7:02:28 AM
Both examples are invalidated by a Justifying Edit. If the event is considered ridiculous even in-universe, it's not Narm.
Edited by TantaMonty on Sep 14th 2022 at 7:25:51 AM
Bringing up the following example from Star Trek S1 E0 "The Cage":
- Narm: Captain Pike's vision of Hell? Surrounded by flames...in a pit full of oatmeal.
She / Her
I'm unsure if that's even supposed to be serious. If it (EDIT: actually) is, I guess it can stay, though I think it'll need tweaking.
Edited by RandomTroper123 on Sep 15th 2022 at 8:17:58 AM
I think that fits more under Special Effects Failure.
EDIT:![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]")
Fair enough.
Edited by RandomTroper123 on Sep 13th 2022 at 7:38:49 AM