During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
Sure to Erwin.
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
Shin Megami Tensei IV
I deleted this Zero Context Example from Mind Game.
- And in second place, everyone involved with the film crew. Every last one of 'em.
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Erwin Smith.
Yes to Erwin.
Fair warning: I can get pretty emotional and take things too seriously.
I can do an EP on Kaiba. He doesn’t count pre-Mind Crush since he’s too sadistic and is constantly on the edge of breaking down. Post-Mind Crush Kaiba could count, and he definitely counts by Darkside if Dimensions.
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
The Unknown Unknown
Erwin.
My concerns with Kaiba is... is he even evil enough to count as a whole?
A cruel, sick joke is still a joke, and sometimes all you can do is laugh.
He’s kind of evil pre-Mind Crush. After that, he’s no longer evil, but still antagonistic, willing to screw over Yugi to achieve his goals.
He’s willing to let a serial killer run loose if it means getting rare cards. Granted, he still opposes him, but still...
Edited by SatoshiBakura on Jul 10th 2019 at 7:59:18 AM
Kaiba kind of strikes me as a Sore Loser and manchild.
I won't mind if he gets upvoted but I feel he's kind of lacking in charisma.
Edited by username2527 on Jul 10th 2019 at 5:04:18 AM
Lord of Hell
Yeah, even after his mind crush, didn't he attempt to blow up Alcatraz before the finals were over when people were still on it out of spite because he lost to Yugi? That's...way too petty for my liking.
Don't know enough about Darkside of Dimensions since I haven't watched it, but if somebody thinks Kaiba counts there, go for it.
Yeah, but he calms down after Ishizu convinces him to stay. Part of the problem is that the dub simplified and wrecked his character so much that he comes across as a lot more petty than how he does in the Japanese version and manga (which he still does, but has a lot more reasoning to back it up). But maybe he's still too petty even there.
Also, I'm pretty sure that he says that he's leaving enough time for everyone to escape. He just wants the Alcatraz tower gone.
Edited by SatoshiBakura on Jul 10th 2019 at 8:12:38 AM
In the manga he left them an airship but in the anime the airship's engines had gone out in a previous arc so they had to use the medical helicopter. I wouldn't say Kaiba qualifies as an MB during the series as he's more of a Smug Snake, and BSODs after losing at Duelist Kingdom and at Battle City, but he doesn't when on the verge of losing in DSOD—he just smirks. He does kinda shut down
◊ when the Puzzle is completed and nothing happens, though.
Edited by lalalei2001 on Jul 10th 2019 at 7:46:26 AM
The Protomen enhanced my life.I'm actually going to play it safe and vote no to Kaiba.
The Setos we had upvoted from Forbidden Memories and Duelist of the Roses were arguably different but the same characters, but didn't have that smarmy Flat-Earth Atheist Screw the rules personality. Seto from FM does love the Evil Grin, but that's about as "smarmy and smug" as he gets.
Fair warning: I can get pretty emotional and take things too seriously.
Foreign Troper
Kaiba was more concerned with seeing the Egyptian God Cards in action than tending to the seriously wounded duelists. Hell he even brushed off Yugi's pain after his best friend seemingly died all so he can duel him and satisfy his petty grudge. And in the manga, while he did save Joey from drowning, he deliberately waited until the very last second, just for the lulz.
Even at his best, Kaiba just cant stop being a colossal asshat, so I'm gonna throw in a definite 'No' in advance as well.
Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
@ Riley, I remember a while ago on CM you did the musical version of Death Note's spin on Light. L different enough there to warrant an EP or does he do the same shit?
- Attack on Titan: Erwin Smith, commander of the Survey Corps, is a brilliant strategist who formed the infamous formation to use against Titans, cutting down on casualties immensely. From a young age, Erwin was known as a genius who used and manipulated those around him, sacrificing countless lives for the benefit of humanity. Recruiting humanity's strongest warrior, Levi Rivaille and winning his loyalty, Erwin uses his own troops as bait to draw out hypothetical Titan shifters, utilizing other Titans as weapons against them. When arrested, Erwin even helps to come up with a plan to overthrow the corrupt monarchy and install his subordinate Historia on the throne, driven by a desire to prove humanity shall not fall easily in his war against the Titans.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
L is pretty much the same. He also actually gets it worse than in the anime, being forced into a Psychic-Assisted Suicide and left time for a breakdown.
An oddity about the musical is that Light may qualify for an MB in that iteration of all things. He's killed on a whim by Ryuk, not outplayed, and while he does have a Villainous Breakdown, it has some element of dignity. (Being a Dark Reprise of his Villain Song "Hurricane".) I'm still looking into it.
Mmm... I'm always going to be leery of an adaptation of Light counting where he keeps his CM label. Unless they toned down his sadistic, sexist and Smug Snake qualities I have trouble seeing it and those three things are pretty baked into his personality. I seem to recall there being a TV drama where he actually cares about his family: that could be worth a look.
Edited by 43110 on Jul 11th 2019 at 12:57:46 PM
Alright I added my Omar summary to the drafts page.
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II
Here's the last candidate before Olrik.
We're talking about Tsukiyomi, from the Naruto fanfic Echoes.
What's the work?
See Sasori's EP.
Who is Tsukiyomi the Deceiver ? What has he done?
Tsukiyomi the Deceiver is Kazama's world's Madara Uchiha. His origins are similar to canon until his defection from Konoha, except the fact that he married someone and had children prior to his defection from Konoha. The fact that his wife and children sided with the rest of the Uchiha clan against him made him feel increasingly betrayed, to the point he wants the Uchiha clan (to whom he refers as betrayers) and Konoha destroyed. He also wants to harness Kazama's power to travel through dimensions for himself.
In Kazama's world, Tsukiyomi noticed the portal created by Orochimaru's experiment on Kazama. Deciding that it could be useful he decided to follow Kazama inside the portal, ending up in Naruko's world. There, he Mind Raped Yuugao into revealing Naruko's (Female!Naruto) location before killing her. Aware that he can't stand up to the combined force of Kabuto, Kazama, Chibaku, Sasori and Naruko alone, he sets out to find allies of his own. He meets Susanoo (Chibaku's world!Madara Uchiha) and strikes an alliance with him. In Kitsune's (Insane Naruto) world, Susanoo kills Kabuto and the duo meets Amaterasu (Kitsune's world!Madara Uchiha) and they become the Madara trio, hell-bent on obtaining Kazama's power. This should also allow Tsukiyomi to return to his homeworld to finish what he started with Konoha.
When meeting the Arashi clan (Kazama's group) and Kitsune (who joined the group), Tsukiyomi tried to negociate with them, but Kitsune attacked, thus starting a fight between the Arashi Clan and the Madara Trio. Tsukiyomi ended up facing against Sasori. No Selling almost all of his attacks, Tsukiyomi has also shown quick thinking : when Sasori threw projectiles at his feet (since they're unlikely to be intangible), Tsukiyomi absorbed with his eye the metal sand projectiles. Before starting the fight, he tries again to negociate with Sasori, to no avail.
Not that it matter, or rather, it matters little, as the Madara trio massacred the Arashi Clan. If it wasn't for Sasori knowing when to fold 'em, the Arashi Clan would've been a bloody paste on the ground, barring Kazama.
Tsukiyomi went into a Villainous Breakdown due to not capturing Kazama, but quickly regained his composure, courtesy of Amaterasu (who ironically kept the peace between Susanoo and Tsukiyomi despite claiming to be "war made flesh").
They pursue the Arashi clan in the Wave-Verse and kill Wave-Verse!Nagato and Wave-Verse!Konan. Then, they discusses their motivesnote . Then, they finally found the Arashi clan (Thanks to Susanoo's Rinnegan) in the Land of Waves. The Arashi Clan (with the help of Wave-Verse!Team 7) was in the middle of a battle with Zabuza, Haku, Kisame and Kimimaro. Tsukiyomi tries to negociate again, but the Arashi Clan refuse, not having forgiven them for killing Kabuto and almost killing Naruko. Tsukiyomi ends up facing Kazama this time, and uses Tsukiyomi on him, trapping him in an illusion. In this illusion, he further destroys Kazama's affiliation to Konoha by pointing out that Konoha's inhabitants hated him for something he isn't responsible of. He further added that those who didn't hated him, or were his supposed friends only tolerated him. The Third Hokage? To better manipulate Naruto. Iruka? Saved his life not for him but for the village, and didn't give him remedial classes, training him and much less mentoring him. Add to that tons of Armor-Piercing Questions and yeah, Kazama's loyalty to Konoha was broken, to say the least. To the point Kazama thought he had no friends in Konoha. Tsukiyomi (who felt betrayed by Konoha) added that he didn't enjoy Kazama's suffering, and sincerely related to him (Word of God stated that Tsukiyomi was also Kazama's Evil Counterpart, to boot). In a Motive Rant, he revealed his objective : destroy Konoha and create a paradise out of Konoha's ashes, based on Izuna's promise (see below). He then attempted to implant Amatsu-Mikaboshi inside Naruto, but was stopped by Kushina's (Kazama's mom) chakra inside Naruto. Using Tsukiyomi, he then forced Kamui (Wave-Verse!Kakashi) to relive his memories of Kenta Ayatsuri (see Kenta's CM EP), thus awakening his Mangekyo Sharingan. Tsukiyomi tries again to implant Mikaboshi inside Naruto, succeeding this time, while also succeeding in removing Kushina's chakra. The only reason Kazama didn't join Tsukiyomi is because he saw him just as guilty as the rest of Konoha, and thus, was hell-bent on killing him. He fought Kamui and Kazama without much trouble. After Amaterasu destroyed the Land of Waves, Tsukiyomi left with the rest of the trio. They became allies with Amatsu-Mikaboshi.
The Madara Trio's last appearance is in Responsible!Jiraya's world, where they engaged the Arashi Clan, Responsible!Jiraya, Responsible!Jiraya's world!Naruto, and Kuebiko (Tobirama Senju). Tsukiyomi ended up facing Sasori, Chibaku and Kuebiko. During their fight, Tsukiyomi tries again to negociate, asking them where is Kazama. Sasori refused and went Papa Wolf on him, pointing out that he might have accepted a few weeks ago if it wasn't for Kabuto's murder, the fact that he's completely untrustworthy and that he harmed Chibaku. The fight, however, was interrupted when the Shinigami and Amatsu-Mikaboshi's squabble sending them in different worlds.
Tsukiyomi, alongside Kazama and Susanoo, ended up in the Ame-Verse. There, he tried to convince Naruto to join, sincerely telling him that they can take over the realms together. He then leaves, telling him to think about his offer wisely.
Joining Susanoo on the makeshift grave he made for Amaterasu (who died fighting Wave-Verse!Zabuza and Responsible!Jiraya), Tsukiyomi sent Susanoo recruit their world's Madara.
He then went back to Kazama, asking him about his offernote . Kazama refused. However, Tsukiyomi then offered to train him. Kazama, who hated himself for being too weak... Accepted... Which ultimately allowed Tsukiyomi to manipulate him further. On top of that, Tsukiyomi is an excellent teacher and is the closest thing to a father figure Kazama ever had.
With Susanoo, Tsukiyomi finally met Izanami (Ame-Verse!Mikoto Uchiha), who was Izanagi (Ame-Verse!Madara Uchiha)'s student. While she tries to portray herself as a loyal student of Izanagi, Tsukiyomi became suspicious because she knew Edo Tensei, yet didn't ressurect Izanagi with it. In front of the Yagura/Hanzo threat, Tsukiyomi made an Enemy Mine with Kazama.
Izanami revealed her true nature (hard to blame her though, since Izanagi is a Straw Misogynist ; on top of that it's possible that she's lying, as Tsukiyomi lampshades note ) and forced Tsukiyomi and Susanoo to work with her (while they are more than strong enough to take her on, with her Edo Sensei (and her Trump card, the sage of six paths), she would have taken one of them at least before kicking the bucket). But Tsukiyomi already had a back-up plan : during that alliance, they would learn everything they knew about Izanami and her abilities, and then, if necessary, kill her.
With Kazama and Izanami, he advises the latter to pull a No-Nonsense Nemesis on Yagura by killing him as fast as possible, since when they're going to fight, Yagura is likely going to use the Sanbi (in which case Kazama would have much less winning chances).
Having challenged Hanzo and Yagura in a tag-team battle for the leadership of Amegakure (and also to prevent Hanzo and Yagura from starting a war with Ame-Verse!Konoha), Tsukiyomi chose to take on Hanzo while Kazama (who, being a former Jinchuriki, has experience with them) will fight Yagura. Tsukiyomi and Kazama ended up winning, with the latter becoming leader of Amekagure.
Tsukiyomi also convinces Kazama to stay in Amekagure for a week (even though Kazama wants to see his friends away as soon as possible) to repair Hanzo's damage.
When Susanoo came back with Izanagi, planning to kill Kazama (he believes Amatsu-Mikaboshi will try and kill them when they're no longer useful), Tsukiyomi sided with Kazama and the now reunited Arashi clan. Ending up facing Susanoo himself, Tsukiyomi was fully aware that Susanoo was stronger than him, and this relied on endurance to win. However, he was ultimately defeated and left to die in a coffin. Kazama freed him. Since the Sage of Six Paths was with him, Kazama wanted to know everything about Amatsu-Mikaboshi (whom Tsukiyomi didn't mention). Both Madara and the Sage explained to him what Amatsu-Mikaboshi actually is, all the while trying to convince Kazama to agree with one of themnote . Tsukiyomi successfully convinced Kazama, leading to the latter killing the Sage.
But Tsukiyomi's corruption ultimately worked : Kazama wanted Konoha to burn. In Kazama's world, Tsukiyomi pulled another Enemy Mine with the Arashi clan and informed them about Pein (who's the only living Akastuki member with Zetsu) having almost all Tailed Beasts, barring one.
Tsukiyomi and Kazama were later summoned by the Warlord, who wanted them to join him, under the claim that they could rule together. He gave them three days to think about his offer. Mentor and student then left. Expectedly, they refuse.
When Rinnegan!Konan essentially revealed that the conspiracy against Kazama in Konoha wasn't exactly against Kazama : Kazama was just collateral damage. Snapping completely, as Tsukiyomi expected, Kazama went to Konoha to destroy it.
Which he did. Yes. To put it lightly, Tsukiyomi won. Putting Amatsu-Mikaboshi inside of Kazama, manipulating him with half-truths... It paid off.
Tsukiyomi wanted Kazama to become like him. It worked.
When Kazama ended up in the "Road To Ninja" Verse, Tsukiyomi came along : now that he had accomplished his life-long objective, he had nothing to do. He chose to help out Kazama. When Kazama pulled a Heel–Face Turn... Tsukiyomi took it surprisingly well. He decided to explore this world to find a way out of the "Road to Ninja" Verse. The result of Tsukiyomi's investigations were... Nightmare Fuel incarnate : the books in the library? Blank. The neighboring villages? Same people with the same names as others. Cities? Konoha is the only one in the whole continent. He immediately deduced that this world is a powerful illusion. He... Wasn't far from the truth.
Before the final battle with Teikoku!Obito (who's pretty much behind everything in this verse), Madara left to prepare a special weapon he would use against Obito.
However, when Amatsu-Mikaboshi tried to possess Kazama, Tsukiyomi came back. Acknowledging that all he did was to give his hate and bitterness to Naruto in his objective to destroy Konoha, he pulled a Heroic Sacrifice allowing Kazama to keep control of his body and to pull a Heroic Second Wind against Obito. His last words? "Make me proud, son".
Is he charming? Intelligent?
Ohhh, yes. The guy is Affably Evil, lacks the Canon Madara's arrogance, and is an absolutely brilliant manipulator, despite being a Bad Liar. You read that right, an MB who's a Bad Liar. What makes him stands out is that his knowledge of human psychology is brilliant, and he's a master of the Half-Truth, which makes him an even better manipulator because he never technically lies to you. He successfully manipulated Kazama into pulling a Face–Heel Turn and destroying his world's Konoha, easily took over Ame through his training of Kazama, and successfully, thanks to Itachi, eradicated the Uchiha clan. On top of that, he's willing to negociate and almost always tries to do that before settling for a fight.
Thinking on his feet?
Absolutely. When Amatsu-Mikaboshi separated the Arashi clan in different worlds, he immediately took advantage of the situation to further manipulate Kazama, since the rest of his friends (who could influence Kazama against Tsukiyomi) was in other worlds. It worked so well when Kazama came back in his original world, he pulled a Face–Heel Turn and wiped out Konoha. When threatened by Izanami into making an alliance, he planned to learn everything about her and her abilities so that she can be easily predicted and killed if necessary. When facing the Sage of Six Paths, far more powerful than him, he had no problem turning Kazama against him, notably by pulling a genuine Papa Wolf.
What about the competition?
Susanoo, while Affably Evil and a badass in his own right, lacks both Tsukiyomi's charm (he has charm, just not as much) and Amaterasu's sheer badassitude. Being a fatalist while refusing to accept his impending death doesn't help.
Amaterasu is the most badass of the trio, probably the most affable of the trio (he recognizes Chibaku, Kitsune, Zabuza and Jiraya as Worthy Opponents, and congratulates the latter two for defeating him) wiped out the Kyuubi and an entire island with a Dangerous Forbidden Technique, and survived it (despite it including awakening all Eight Gates... We've seen how Guy ended up after doing so in canon), and successfully manipulated Shisui Uchiha into being the mastermind of the Uchiha massacre in his world. As such, he could be an MB candidate, but being a Deconstruction of the Noble Demon trope doesn't exactly helps him.
Izanami successfully pulls Xanatos Speed Chess after Xanatos Speed Chess. That said, Tsukiyomi was not fooled by her Obfuscating Stupidity and remained suspicious of her. Her Master Roshi-level perversion doesn't help her, either.
There's a reason Sasori was upvoted : he Out-Gambitted the Madara Trio by fleeing when it was clear that the Arashi Clan couldn't win. But that said, during their battle, Tsukiyomi was constantly a step ahead of Sasori dodging or No Selling all of his Xanatos Speed Chess with quick thinking. So, yeah, both are on another level.
On top of that, in the whole fanfiction, Tsukiyomi is the most successful villain. Those who weren't foiled pulled a Heel–Face Turn.
Is he a bastard? Too much of a bastard?
Would Hurt a Child, is still trying to destroy Konoha even though most people he had a grudge against kicked the bucket, Unfettered, doesn't regret successfully destroying Konoha, so yeah, he is a bastard.
That said, he grew to genuinely care for Kazama, going as far as to see him as his son. His affabillity? Completely genuine. In the "Road to Ninja" Verse, when Kazama wondered if Tsukiyomi would abandon him, Tsukiyomi defied the You Have Outlived Your Usefulness trope, saying that he wouldn't be a good teacher if he abandoned his student. He also genuinely cared for his little brother Izuna, to the point he spent his life to fulfill his promise : that one day, Tsukiyomi "would create a world where the gifted wouldn't be feared, where bright would prosper, where the privilege of name will be replaced the privilege of merit". And, as much as he hated his wife and children for siding with the Uchiha clan and Konoha over him, he still genuinely loved his wife. He also cared about Amaterasu, promising to avenge him. On top of that, he still has standards: when he was briefly in the world of Naruto the Omnicidal Maniac, even him was disturbed by the destruction Naruto wrought. He also despises betrayal, and refused to become like those who wronged him. He is a Graceful Loser, to boot. Unlike his canon counterpart, he willingly created Konoha in a desire for peace. Sadly, what changed him? His brother's death, and Hashirama being a General Failure. The Uchiha clan siding with Konoha and Hashirama over him sealed the deal.
Verdict?
Up to you. After him, I'll lay off the fanfic MB for a while, and I'll move on to Olrik and two more Eggmans.
Edited by GeorgieEnkoom on Jul 13th 2019 at 6:03:18 PM
J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)
Speaking of Light. I wonder if the Netflix adaption can count. He does go through some Adaptational Wimp for the most part throughout the film but he does bounce back at the end with a truly brilliant endgame. The fact that he lacks the sadism and spitefulness of other adaptions hrlps. Though him spends most of the film in "pathetic" territory may be a problem though.
Edited by username2527 on Jul 11th 2019 at 12:49:33 PM
I've thought on Netflix Light as well. I feel he just misses the mark, my hatred of the character aside. He basically cheats the entire plot using the Death Note. The only reason it's cool or clever is because the audience isn't allowed to see it at first.
A total has-been.
On Kaiba - Pre-Mind Crush Kaiba is a Smug Snake (as is Mokuba), while Post-Mind Crush Kaiba is an "almost there but never quite" case. As others have put it, his constant Sore Loser-ness and petty asshole tendencies negate a lot of magnificence he'd have otherwise. A shame, since were that not the case he'd be very much a Rufus Shinra type character, or heck, like the Setos in the two video games that got approved.
Edited by ANewMan on Jul 11th 2019 at 3:44:52 AM
Sure, why not to Tsukiyomi. And @ J, Sorry, I know I took a while but your most recent trim looks good. I'll probably just add in people's full names the first time they're referenced but that's about it.
@ ANew, Can the entry you put in the drafts be trimmed down?
I'm gonna say no to Light from any adaptation. No matter what, he's a colossal asshole, with his only real redeeming qualities being his originally good intentions (which are long gone), and of course his tragic death, which still comes off as extremely pathetic as he goes out a ranting and raving lunatic, even in the anime, but at least in that he had other characters feel for him.
The fact he practically threw Misa away like used tissue when he was done with her, and burned his own loving girlfriend to death, not to mention all the other horrible shit he does, yeah, I'm not feeling Light for this trope, ever.
I can live with L counting because he actually has some charm and redeeming qualities to him. And most adaptations of L are more or less the same with the only difference being Adaptational Attractiveness. Not that L was hideous or anything, but he was meant to look way more gawky than Light in the original manga and anime, and in everything else, he's almost as, if not prettier than Light.
But yeah to Tsukuyomi from that Naruto fic.
Hey, did we ever resolve whether or not anyone from Warrior Cats counts? I know Sol and Darktail don't, since they had this either smug arrogant attitude to them, or have serious sadism issues like with Darktail brutally murdering his own minions. But I think someone from Series 5 could be worth an EP.
Edited by Klavice on Jul 11th 2019 at 4:49:29 AM
Fair warning: I can get pretty emotional and take things too seriously.
Going just by what Kaiba does and how other characters react to it, he's brought into conflict with Yugi for wanting to dig up and reassemble the Puzzle and duel the Pharaoh (in the prequel manga also to put an end to him
◊ and I think in the subs to also trap the Pharaoh back in the Puzzle?) and Diva, for... the same reasons plus he didn't want to lose his Plana powers.
Maybe an effort post would be better just to see where he does/doesn't stand. (If he doesn't qualify he can rest easy knowing his ancestors in video games do XD)
Edited by lalalei2001 on Jul 10th 2019 at 3:00:17 AM
The Protomen enhanced my life.