During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Also, I just thought I'd like to mention that Orca: The Killer Whale has a novelization. If anyone wants to see if the book version of the orca also qualifies, they're more than welcome to claim him.
Edited by ImperialMajestyXO on May 7th 2022 at 9:05:17 AM
Lemme give those above two a yes, and before my next writeups, one I'd like to get in from Drenai, a lengthy series by the late David Gemmell. Ulric Khan.
In the 1970s, David Gemmell was diagnosed with cancer. Thinking he was dying, it made him consider his legacy. He decided to write a novel, calling upon a love of history and fantasy to create the Drenai saga. The Drenai are a proud, warrior people threatened with conquest by the Nadir tribes. Everything coems to a head at Dros Delnoch, a border fortress where Rek, the Earl of Bronze stands outnumbered and outgunned, with the great hero Druss the Legend coming to assist them, with just his axe and reputatio.
And our villain? Enter Ulric.
Who is Ulrich?
A man of the Nadir tribes and a once in a millennia charismtic genius. Ulric led the conquest of the tribes, forging them into a single, powerful entity and swept over the land. His singular strategies have turned the Nadir from tribes into a genuine empire and he means to take the Drenai lands.
The Drenai, however, are not so easily cowed. Ulric's strategies, however, are as much a danger as his numbers. Ulric relies on deception and strength in equal measures, using distractions to try to mob the walls and infiltration. The entire novel is managing to resist him, thanks only to Rek and Druss. In one battle, Druss fights off the Nadir but takes a mortal wound and dies outside the walls. That night?
Ulri allows for a ceasefire so they might open the gates and give Drugg a warrior's funeral, standing by out of respect to a worthy foe. Inspired by Druss, the Drenai resist a final wave, when Ulric hears word there's a rebellion raised against him in the Nadir lands.
His response to this? To greet the defenders and salute them, laughing he will return, but conveying his undying respect for the challenge of his life. The epilogue reveals Ulric dies putting don the rebellion and his empire collapses...
And the Drenai are safe for another century.
Mitigating issues?
He's tailor made for this trope. An affable, charismatic, ruthless strategic genius who leads an army of conquest and spends the entire novel grappling with the good guys to take their fortress? Ulric has the demeanor to hit this well. His views towards Rek?
"He was a mighty man. And rare. He was a man with doubts who overcame them. He stood on the walls of Dros Delnoch and defied me with his pitiful force, and I loved him for it.
His descendant Tenaka, the hero of book 2 (And future EP here), at one point meets Ulric's spirit and asks him simply why Ulric didn't dishonorably take the chance of Druss's funeral to take the fortress. Ulric's one response?
"Would you?"
Conclusion?
Absolute yes.
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Ulrich.
Ultimate Moral Compass
Ulrich
So I'm actually going to be taking a slight break from The Bad Guys for a split second to discuss another movie. Despite reserving this one weeks ago, I've been on and off on if anybody counted, but after talks with HambugerTime, I think I can finally talk about this one.
What's the Work?
Everything Everywhere All at Once is an awesomely bizarre sci-fi action comedy by Daniel Kwan and Daniel Scheinert (aka The Daniels), which I actually saw at its world premiere at SXSW (don’t mean to brag).
Evelyn Wang is living out her worst life; her marriage with her husband Waymond’s falling apart, her connection with her daughter Joy is crumbling, and her laundromat’s about to be foreclosed. But one day while visiting the IRS office with her husband, daughter, and her father “Gong Gong”, she finds herself entrapped in a plot about the multiverse, which is slowly coming apart thanks to a being called Jobu Tupaki—in actuality an alternate universe version of Joy—who has not only (supposedly) killed multiple Evelyns across numerous dimensions, but also plans to unleash the Everything Bagel, a portal that will apparently destroy the entire multiverse.
With the ass-kicking Alphaverse Waymond by her side, Evelyn discovers that she can unlock certain abilities from her other dimensional counterparts and use them to her advantage, from tapping into a verse where she’s a kung fu movie star in order to fight off Jobu’s men, to tapping into a world where she has big floppy hot dog fingers to slip herself out of handcuffs.
Tons of wackiness and family drama ensue.
Who is He?
Alpha Gong Gong (played by James Hong), the Alphaverse version of Evelyn’s senile father, is the leader of a resistance dedicated to stopping Jobu Tupaki at all cost after his daughter perished.
What does he do?
Despite being a wheelchair bound crank, Alpha Gong Gong manages to create his own army of sleeper agents, ready to jump to any dimension at his command and stop Jobu Tupaki. Showing himself once Evelyn and Alpha Waymond work together in their plan to stop Jobu, Alpha Gong Gong proves himself rather ruthless in his goals.
This includes trying to get Evelyn to kill her Joy despite not being possessed by Jobu at the moment in order to ensure she doesn’t have another body to take over; and most damning of all, he’s willing to kill Evelyn, his own daughter, to ensure she doesn’t give in to Jobu’s suicidal ideals, something he’s done in several other dimensions. So yeah, Jobu never killed the Evelyns, it was Alpha Gong Gong, doing it in order to save the multiverse.
Once Evelyn refuses to kill Joy, Alpha Gong Gong summons his men from several different dimensions over to the IRS building they’re all in in order to kill her. But as Evelyn kicks all their asses, Alpha Gong Gong goes hard, slamming his wheelchair into Evelyn to pin her against a wall and even pulling out a grenade, willing to die with her to protect the multiverse. But Evelyn’s able to kick him away with her own pinky.
But as everything starts going to shit thanks to Jobu, Alpha Gong Gong pulls out the big guns: he reveals that his wheelchair is actually so tricked out, that it’s capable of creating body armor for him to give him a chance at combat. After a while, once Evelyn tries to instead talk Jobu out of entering Everything Bagel and killing herself, Alpha Gong Gong’s able to put aside his differences and help Evelyn out, now doing what he must to save her granddaughter after it looks like she might turn a new leaf. And it succeeds. Jobu Tupaki’s no more, and Evelyn has now made peace with Joy.
Is he charming? Intelligent? Able to think on his feet?
Alpha Gong Gong’s got some funny and cool moments of his own, proving to be sharp and quick despite the fact that he’s in his 90s, while also lacking his main counterpart’s inability to speak English and senility. He's far more skilled, sophisticated, and tactical.
When his plans don’t go well, he always has another trick up his sleeve, whether it be his troops he can summon from anywhere at his command, to his suddenly tricked out wheelchair, to being the secret mastermind behind the other Evelyns’ deaths; anything to protect the multiverse.
Is he a bastard? Too much of one?
While Alpha Gong Gong might share his mainline version’s dated misogyny (since the version from Evelyn's main universe was disappointed he was birthed a daughter, and disowned her after marrying Waymond against his wishes), this version of Gong Gong cares for his daughter (he clearly doesn't want to kill her), but is fully willing to murder her and her granddaughter in order to protect the multiverse. A clear Well-Intentioned Extremist who will throw the lives of his family away if it means saving billions.
But he goes through some character development, and decides to forgo the plan to kill Evelyn and Joy to instead help them out, showing that despite everything, he has a heart.
The competition?
Jobu Tupaki, despite being a more Tragic Villain who proves herself very smart at points, is ultimately at her core a broken death seeker who breaks down upon Evelyn trying to reconcile with her, slowly losing her magnificence as the movie progresses.
Verdict?
I think he keeps.
Edited by therealjackieboy on May 7th 2022 at 9:54:51 AM
"No running in the halls!"
Self-Declared King of Everything
I want to call dibs on Darth Vader: Hero of Naboo. I may have E Ps for that in the future.
Check out my current fanfiction project.
and YES there, Jackie
Self-Declared King of Everything
I want to know, what are the rules for writing an EP on an Self-Insert fic? I know most are trash on principle, but I found one that's an exception.
Check out my current fanfiction project.
As we discussed, HELL YES to James Hong being this thread’s Memetic Badass once again. ![[lol]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/lol2v12_4863.png "[lol]"){kind=small}
Edited by HamburgerTime on May 7th 2022 at 12:48:37 PM
Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II
What's the work?
Who's Dordoni Alessandro Del Socaccio? What has he done?
A Privaron Espada, Dordoni was sent to kill Ichigo Kurosaki, and while the latter and his kid ally Nel Tu initially don't take him seriously… Well, they realizes that he truly means business when Dordoni starts the fight with having an advantage over Ichigo.
The former initially underestimates him and refuses to use his Bankai : Tensa Zangetsu at first, arguing that he needs to keep it for the current Espadas, despite Dordoni pointing out that he won't defeat him unless he pulls out his Bankai, using his Resurrecíon : Giralda to prove it. After attacking Nel when she gets involved in the fight, Dordoni finally gets what he wants when Ichigo uses his Bankai to save her. However, well aware that Ichigo has more tricks under his sleeves such as Hollowfication – having monitored with Aizen and other Arrancars Ichigo's fights –, he attempts to goad him into using his Hollowfication as well, deliberately attacking Nel as well in the process (aware of Ichigo's desire to protect his friends and having seen that targeting Nel the first time allowed him to witness Ichigo's Bankai).
He succeeds as well, and while the hollowfied Ichigo one-shots him, Dordoni is nonetheless satisfied as he got what he wanted : fighting Ichigo at his fullest strength.
After Nel heals most of his injuries, Dordoni reveals to her and Ichigo his motives, before attacking them again, seemingly being an Ungrateful Bastard.
In truth however? Dordoni is genuinely grateful to them, especially Ichigo for going as far as to use Hollowfication against him despite having the potential to defeat him with Bankai alone, and only pulled out the ungrateful card to encourage Ichigo to become more ruthless in combat and not heal his next opponents, as they won't be as kind as him. Despite his wounds reopening, Dordoni goes out with a Last Stand and dies fighting against the Exequias sent by Szayelaporro Granz to cover Ichigo and Nel's escape.
Resurrected in the Thousand Year Blood War Arc by Mayuri Kurotsuchi alongside fellow deceased Arrancars and former Espada Luppi Antenor and Cirucci Sanderwicci, Dordoni assists them against Giselle Gewelle and her zombie Shinigami in the hopes of meeting Ichigo again. After slaughtering the zombie Shinigami, the resurrected Arrancar trio is confronted by the zombified Kensei Muguruma, Rangiku Matsumoto and Rōjūrō "Rose" Ōtoribashi, defeating them off-screen by unwittingly injecting them with the medicine Mayuri put in their corpses before resurrecting them.
Is he charming? Intelligent?
Dordoni fills his speeches with Gratuitous Spanish, is funny, likeable, honorable, goofy, clumsy and seemingly incompetent… And then he brings up his Privaron Espada status and puts Ichigo through a hard fight and shows his skill. Not-So-Harmless Villain at its finest.
He's also fairly smart, deconstructing Ichigo's mindset during the fight and the combination of his skill and smarts allows him to get exactly what he wanted : Ichigo fighting with all of his power against him. Even when quite wounded, he comes up with a scheme to protect Nel and Ichigo at the cost of his life, genuinely grateful to them for healing him. In a way, I could compare him to Holden Webster, as both's magnificences, rather than schemes, are shown through how they point out Ichigo and Buffy's problems and leave an impact on their mindsets. He has foresight as well, as he's well aware that Aizen doesn't care about the Espada beyond their strength, and believing that the Espada would become expendable to him as soon as Aizen would've the Hogyoku (which is indeed what more or less happens).
When resurrected by Mayuri, he shows cautiousness, avoiding being touched by the zombie Shinigamis' blood to avoid falling under Giselle's control up until Luppi and Circucci reassure him he won't be affected.
Thinking on his feet?
Ichigo is by no means dumb, though he ends up doing what Dordoni wanted him to do. The latter doesn't interacts much with fellow manipulators and MBs, but to be fair to him he operates on a much smaller tier than them (which doesn't prevents him from correctly assuming the Espada will essentially wear out their use once the Hogyoku is complete).
What about the competition?
Not much, admittedly. He successfully goads Ichigo into fighting at his full strength, and since he operates on a lower tier and with much less screentime than most Bleach players, this doesn't leave him with much room to compete with. Though it doesn't prevents him from more or less correctly assume that the Espada will outlive their use once the Hogyoku is complete.
Is he a bastard?
He still works for Aizen and attempts to kill Ichigo and Nel, that's enough.
Too much of a bastard?
Not remotely. Bog standard villainy, standards, respect for Ichigo to the point he's willing to help him out after his defeat, and genuine affability helps. And that's without comparing him to the likes of Shrieker, Szayelaporro and Aizen.
Any other mitigating factor?
Nope.
Verdict ?
Up to you guys.
Preemptive write-up
- Bleach: Dordoni Alessandro Del Socaccio, beneath his affable, goofy and seemingly incompetent behavior, is a Privaron Espada who's far deadlier than it seems. Hunting down and attempting to kill Ichigo Kurosaki in the hopes of regaining his former Espada rank, Dordoni goads Ichigo into using his full power against him, criticizing him for trying to keep it for the current Espada, and deliberately targeting Ichigo's ally Nel Tu upon noticing his first attempt on the latter's life successfully forced Ichigo to reveal his Bankai. Succeeding in forcing Ichigo to use his full power to take him down, Dordoni is healed by Nel Tu and Ichigo after his defeat. Genuinely grateful to them for that and especially to Ichigo for fighting him at full power, Dordoni pretends to ungratefully attack them, hoping for Ichigo to become a more ruthless fighter in his future battles to survive and dies covering their escape. Resurrected in the final arc by Mayuri Kurotsuchi, Dordoni assists him against the Sternritter Z, Giselle Gewelle.
Edited by GeorgieEnkoom on May 15th 2022 at 10:37:32 AM
J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)
Yea to Ulric and the Everything Everywhere candidate.
Yes to Ulrich, Alpha Gong Gong and I'll say yes to Dordoni from the sounds of things, though I know Bleach has been one to cause some debate in the past.
Also going to get this up before I get to Mirai's story:
- Fullmetal Alchemist and the Broken Angel: This version of Colonel Roy Mustang is even trickier than his original counterpart. Seemingly betraying the Elric brothers to be thrown in jail by a corrupt General, Mustang uses their inevitable breakout as a diversion to outplay and arrest the General. Harsh yet fair, Mustang even fights Ed to prevent him from seeing a girl he had befriended as she passes away per her and her father's wishes.
Decided to pothole to his character page since even though his 2003 version technically doesn't have one they're functionally the same character at that point in the story. Open if someone would like it changed though.
Edited by 43110 on May 7th 2022 at 2:12:57 PM
Yes there, GE!
Yes to Ulric, Alpha Gong Gong, & Dordoni. 43’s Gendo pic can go in Image Links (unless we get an Eva page sometime).
Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II
Sure to your Gendo image 43, Porsche, Ulric and Alpha Gong Gong. I should've two Bleach filler villains up soon.
Edited by GeorgieEnkoom on May 7th 2022 at 8:47:49 PM
J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)
Lies and Violence!
Ulrich, Alpha, Dordoni
What's the work?
A Practical Guide to Evil is a web serial set in a world where fantasy tropes are exploitable laws of reality. And what kind of trope-filled fantasy setting would it be if it didn't have an evil empire constantly causing problems! The Dread Empire of Praes is a nation home to all kinds of hilariously over the top horrors and fates worse than death, with even the most progressive nobles doing stuff like holding annual celebrations wherein they hunt down their relatives in the woods with packs of lions.
However, the recent rulers have been trying to steer the Empire in a different direction. Dread Empress Malicia and the Black Knight, Amadeus, won the throne of Praes in a brutal civil war before turning their attention to the neighboring Kingdom of Callow, conquering it in short order. Together the two ruled with terrifying efficiency for twenty years, Black killing heroes wherever they pop up while Malicia keeps the rebellious, power-hungry Praesi nobles in line. Gone are the days of Large Ham monologues atop flying fortresses, the stealing of souls and bargains with devils and demons to slaughter one's enemies. The duo would much rather have your tea poisoned than confront you in a climactic final duel.
Unfortunately, cracks start to form in their partnership. Seeing how tropes are part of reality here, The Good Guys Always Win is a very recurring thing. If they get into a big enough conflict with the forces of Good, they will lose. Black responds to this constantly looming threat with insane defiance, with 90% of his motivation being to spit in the eyes of fate itself and see a villain undeniably win. Malicia, a bit more reasonably, concludes that the only way for them to survive in the long term is to never fight at all. A bit more unreasonably, she decides to accomplish this by secretly funding the creation of a doomsday weapon that can be used as a deterrent for the growing Crusade effort in the neighboring Good nation of Procer, ruled by First Prince Cordelia Hasenbach. When Black finds out and destroys the weapon, subsequently leading to Cat betraying Praes and crowning herself Queen of Callow, Malicia proceeds to make a deal with the Dead King, letting him out of his personal Hell dimension in exchange for giving him free rein to conquer an entire third of Procer.
Basically, she starts out reasonable and pragmatic, but a healthy fear of not being able to win and her efforts to avoid that fate alienatate allies and drive her to increasingly convoluted schemes in hopes of bloodying her enemies' noses so they'll be too weak to take a strike at her. Unfortunately, all this does is piss off the rest of the continent, and Cat, having managed to delay the Dead King's apocalyptic goals for about a year, soon comes for her head.
We'll get to Malicia herself in a bit — and that's going to be a weird discussion, I have no idea how it's going to turn out — but first!
Who is Lady Ime?
Formerly a noble servant of the Heir (Black's Arch-Enemy back when he was only the Squire), Ime betrayed her master to Amadeus and was spared from his bloody wrath in return. She became one of Malicia's most trusted allies and personal spymistress, overseeing the "Eyes of the Empire" opposite Eudokia for Black and quickly propelling the spy network to rival even Procer's counterpart, the Circle of Thorns. Notably, she figures out a way to get around the visions of the Auger (First Prince Cordelia's seer cousin, and the main reason they've had so much trouble assassinating her), reasoning she's likely only able to foresee events that are planned. So, for instance, a natural disaster or randomly timed attack may get past her.
She plays a bit part for most of the series, bringing Malicia information and Cat orders. However, she takes a bigger role when Black is eventually captured by Procer, collaborating with Eudokia to enact a coup on Cordelia. The two gradually leak their ideas on how to get around the Auger's visions to rebellious elements within the capital. In the subsequent chaos, Ime has her agents attempt to burn down the city using goblinfire — Cat's calling card, placing the blame for the coup on her and ruining any chance at peace between Procer and Callow. Of course, Eudokia has her own schemes in play — her collaboration with the coup effort is intended to get Black to finally realize Malicia needs to die — and she helps sabotage Ime's agents partway through.
With Black and Eudokia officially splitting from the Empire after this kerfuffle, Ime immediately jumps on wresting complete control over the Eyes away from Eudokia, largely succeeding in cementing her hold over the agents in the east of the continent in the two year time skip. She also starts pointing out the flaws in Malicia's plans, frequently arguing for less convoluted schemes. To comically paraphrase:
Okay, Malicia's more composed than that, but you get what I mean.
Anyway, Ime realizes Malicia's going to get herself killed at this rate and contacts Black to plan how to get her out of this alive — he may be disgusted by her plans, but he still loves her like a sister and will do anything in his power to save her life. First, Black needs a massive battle to bloody the Praesi Legions of Terror and cause mass desertions. From there the war will move to the capital of Ater, where Malicia has another convoluted scheme in play involving her stepping down in favor of the noble Akua Sahelian. Black intends to get Akua to burn down the throne instead, and (having deconstructed every story surrounding the Dread Empire through various other schemes at that point) completely dismantle the Empire. As the nobles of Praes stand in the cold with their nation on fire, Black will present himself as their solution, getting them to elect him leader for eight years. He'll then immediately get Cat to kill him, and since a big part of her plan involved putting him in charge, she'll be forced to spare Malicia so she can take his place, seeing how there's no one else competent enough to keep the nobles in line.
It sounds convoluted, but it makes sense in context. Again, stories are a literal thing you have to consider when planning for the future here, so once he's utterly broken the stories of the evil, backstabbing Dread Empire, a humbled Malicia's less likely to fall into that story groove again.
Now, Ime's part in that plan: one of Black's loyalist generals, Grem One-Eye, has recently been imprisoned by the Empress, so Ime has him write up battle strategies she smuggles out to the aforementioned Abreha, putting her army on par with the various other factions and furthering the massacre for the first part of Black's plan. She then avoids an assassination attempt by Eudokia, saves the Empress from another assassination attempt, and places several stacks of goblinfire throughout the Tower, which burn down the entire building once Akua lights the throne on fire and furthers the symbolism of the Dread Empire toppled at last. Additionally, one of the Praesi nobles has been "soulboxed" by Malicia — his soul was placed in a box — so Ime retrieves the soul shortly before the Tower is burnt down, using it to blackmail him into voting for Black as their new leader.
The rest of the scheme goes as Black intended, and Ime continues to loyally serve her former Empress even after her betrayal is revealed.
Is she magnificent?
Let me just say this: Ime isn't even her real name. It's a translation of "patience" from another language, which Cat immediately calls her out on when they're first introduced. Later on, she tries to threaten Ime by calling her by her true name, Sabra Niri.
...Only for Malicia in a later chapter to think of her as "Lindimi Sahelian." So either the detail was insignificant enough that the author forgot and retconned her name — possible but unlikely, considering the attention to detail given to everything else — or Ime created an entirely fake life just so Cat would think she's more intimidating than she actually is, and Cat never finds out. Bad. Ass.
She's not as flashy as some of the other approved characters, but she's competent and efficient at what she does.
Is she a bastard?
Malicia's right-hand, an accessory to some of her worst crimes, etc.
Verdict?
Keeper.
Showtime!
to Dodoni and Ulrich
Not reading the EEAAO candidate because I want to see that movie and it seems like a movie to avoid spoilers for. Abstain on Ime. I don't think this is the proposer's fault, but I feel like I'm starting to reach a saturation point where I can't evaluate any more PGtE candidates
Absolute destiny... apeachalypse?
Dordoni and Ulrich.
Edited by Javertshark13 on May 7th 2022 at 5:10:00 AM
Ultimate Moral Compass
Dodoni and Ime
Alrighty, back to The Bad Guys. So after talking about someone outside of the Bad Guys, let’s talk the actual Bad Guys. Specifically, their leader.
Who is He?
Mr. Wolf, the suave, charming leader of the Bad Guys, is a master thief who decided to use his bad reputation as an excuse to commit crime.
What does he do?
Showing himself as the crew’s expert planner and getaway driver who always finds thrills in escaping the cops after a good heist, Wolf and his team prefer hording their stolen goods for themselves inside their base.
After being called out on TV by Diane Foxington, Wolf decides to get even with her by pilfering the hard-to-steal Golden Dolphin, a plan that almost works, had it not been for Marmalade putting the idea of doing acts of kindness inside of Wolf. Caught by the police after a failed escape attempt, Wolf’s able to bargain his and his crew’s way out of jail by getting Marmalade to teach them how to be good, all as a way to get on the public’s good side and continue their heists.
But when he finds himself actually turning over to the side of good after successfully saving a cat from a tree, Wolf ends up betraying his crew during their second Golden Dolphin heist (which was going very smoothly despite some mishaps), but ends up being framed by Marmalade for stealing the city’s prized meteorite, and is jailed with his friends. After Diane breaks the Bad Guys out of jail (which was thanks to Wolf giving her a pamphlet that contains a series of notes he wrote down detailing their hideout location, and to steal everything inside of it except a single push-pop—more on that later), Wolf ends up going along with her in their plan to stop Marmalade’s plan.
Through a series of events, Wolf’s best friend Snake ends up betraying the Bad Guys to work for Marmalade, only to betray him and save the day. But as the gang ride off to jail as heroes, Wolf, after previously misdirecting the media so that Diane doesn’t reveal she’s the Crimson Paw and turning himself in for everything he’s done, admits something to Snake.
See, he intentionally left that push-pop inside the fridge, knowing that Snake will give it to Shark out of kindness, thus allowing him to become a good guy and leading to his plan to betray Marmalade. Wolf basically outwitted a criminal mastermind by manipulating his best friend into doing good. With Marmalade behind bars, Wolf and company take off as good guys, ready to take on anything that comes their way.
Is he charming? Intelligent? Able to think on his feet?
And how! Wolf oozes charisma and swagger, carefully crafting successful heists and always ready with a plan even when things start going awry.
And yeah, Wolf is the subject to plenty of slapstick and shenanigans: his first failed escape plan ends with him attempting to grapple away, which just tears his pants off; his plan to free a bunch of guinea pigs for Marmalade hits a snag thanks to Snake eating them all and making it seem to the public like they’re not reforming; and he was ultimately a pawn for Marmalade to ensure his plan to steal $1 billion in charity money goes off without a hitch.
But, Wolf still retains his cool, fun demeanor no matter what happens to him, and he ultimately comes out on top thanks to his cunning wits, ability to plan ahead, psychological knowledge of his friends, and smooth charm. There’s a reason why fans have compared him to Lupin III.
Is he a bastard? Too much of one?
Wolf’s a certified criminal, risking the lives of his friends in order to ensure his heists remain fun and frantic, and is one of the most wanted men in the city.
But he’s the one who ultimately wants to reform the most. Wolf cares for his friends, even if he was willing to betray them to turn good and finally gain respect from the public. And while he does turn good at the end, he doesn’t lose his sly demeanor, and once again he’s willing to manipulate his best friend and risk his life (since Snake almost dies by Marmalade’s hand) to accomplish his plans.
The competition?
Like I said, Professor Marmalade may have manipulated everything and everyone into doing his bidding, but he’s just a smug Hate Sink. Wolf’s able to outwit him at the end, with the reveal of his plan to trick Snake really clenching his choice as a contender.
Verdict?
I think he keeps.
"No running in the halls!"
Not too sure on Mr. Wolf. The slapstick seems too much.
Edited by PurpleEyedGuma on May 7th 2022 at 5:20:32 AM
Self-Declared King of Everything
Having gotten no answers regarding the rules for SI fics, I'll EP the character. If they get voted down, so be it.
What is the work?
The work is Roger, Roger, a Star Wars SI fic on Spacebattles.com where an SW fan gets isekai'd into a B1 battle droid.
So, bad luck right off the bat. I know the reputation of SI fics, and while it being on Spacebattles is a point in its favor it only shows that the writer knows the franchise, but I will say that this is one of the better ones. 711 is competent, but not a Mary Sue, and it is still possible to surprise him.
Who is 711?
Our MC, Battle Droid 711, is the unlucky bastard who got inserted into the body of one of the most useless military units in Star Wars history. And upon realizing this, he shuts down.
After being reactivated, 711 is caught in the middle of a prison break. Not wanting to die, 711 helps the clones escape, and then flees. On his way out, he finds an injured Asajj Ventress, gives her first aid, and takes her to Dooku for new orders. When Ventress is ordered to safeguard the planet Khorm from Republic forces, 711 goes with her.
After Ventress witnesses 711 talking back to the brownnosing captain of her forces and getting electrically tortured as a result, she decapitates the captain and promotes 711 to his place. 711 builds an effective defense against the Republic forces, impressing Ventress.
When Ventress and 711 meet with the local warlord, Warlord Unger Gout, Ventress places 711 in charge of the Separatist forces. Gout is offended, but Ventress makes it clear that she wasn't making a suggestion. 711 leads the Republic forces, commanded by Major Ozzel, into an effective trap that devastates their forces, forcing Ozzel to surrender. Gout puts the survivors to work in his mines, while Ventress, 711, and their forces go to defend the planet's weather control machine from Plo Koon and Kit Fisto.
Gout has other plans, ordering the machine's operators to generate a storm to kill the Jedi, along with Ventress and 711. It doesn't work, but Ventress and 711 are trapped under a mountain of ice and 711 loses an arm. While 711 is damaged, Ventress deems him too useful to abandon and insists on bringing him with her.
The weather control is destroyed, the prisoners rebel, and Khorm falls, as per canon, but Ventress and 711 get revenge on Gout, with 711 blasting his legs to bits and Ventress choking him to death. The two of them escape Khorm while the Republic is occupied fighting 711's defenses. When Ventress asks why 711 is so competent, 711 lies and states that it's because he survived long enough to learn. Ventress promotes 711 to commander.
In the battle of Iraknya, 711 takes command of the Separatist forces and instantly turns the battle from a loss into a win by crashing his own ships into the Republic Star Destroyers. The ships are damaged but not destroyed, so 711 takes as many prisoners as possible, including Admiral Wezler, and truth-serums his access codes out of him.
The Republic reinforcements, led by Admiral Himler, launch attacks on 711's engineering bays and armories, before launching another on the main command post. 711's attack gets through first, though, with a surprise attack hitting Himler's bridge. In hopes of denying the Separatists Iraknya's cortosis mines, Himler destroys the planet's capital city, an act that horrifies 711. 711 orders Himler and the other prisoners given to the Iraknyans in order to convince the Iraknyans to join the Separatists, hoping to gain a strategic victory out of the tactical disaster.
Several months later, 711 is assigned to take part in the attack on Kamino. General Grievous is unimpressed by the droid general, and the two debate over their battle plan, with each bringing up valid flaws in the other's battle plan. Ventress convinces Grievous to let 711 command the attack, and to leak the info that her Toy General is commanding the attack in order to trick the Republic forces into prioritizing his ships, allowing Ventress to attack from below. Grievous threatens 711 not to fail, and 711 counters that he will destroy Tipoca City even if he has to crash into it himself.
711 reveals to the reader that he has significantly upgraded himself, directly connecting himself to his troops. Grievous is confused by 711's host of contingencies, and is offended by the suggestion that the mission might have been set up for failure, but he respect's the droid's ambition.
711 tricks Anakin Skywalker with an array of decoy ion cannons on his flagship. When the local Tactical Droid questions him too many times, 711 destroys it. He then launches hundreds of boarding pods at the city, and sends a ship of buzz droids to take down a critical support structure.
When a reinforcement fleet arrives, 711 hyperspace-jumps to nearly in front of the capital ship, the Pride of the Core, and disables the ship with his real ion cannon. Anakin tries to destroy the real ion cannon, but is shot down. 711 then attempts to pull the Pride with tractor beams and drop it onto the city, forcing the Republic fleet to try to flank him. With Ventress having stolen the prime sample from which the clones are cloned, 711 covers her escape as best he can.
Admiral Yularen manages to coordinate a hit-and-run attack on 711's fleet that 711 admits did take him by surprise, but 711 coordinates a defense with the help of another droid that gains sentience. By the time Yularen takes out the tractor beams, 711 has already hacked the Pride and is about to fly it into the city. Only the combined Force prowess of Anakin, Obi-Wan, and Shaak Ti prevents the collision. 711 takes comfort in the fact that the city was heavily damaged and there won't be any more clone production for some time.
After the Battle of Kamino, 711 has gained infamy as one of the Separatists' deadliest generals. Dooku realizes this, and orders 500 copies of 711 made. However, Grievous is having his doubts over whether 711 was right and he really was set up for failure. And unfortunately, that's where the fic got abandoned.
Magnificent?
I think I've already justified 711's status as a brilliant commander. Really, the question coming to mind is if he ever has to think on his feet, and if he's really not a Villain Sue. And I'm going to say to that, yes he does, and no he isn't. 711 is a skilled commander, but he still can be taken by surprise. Admiral Yularen almost ruined his entire plan by taking out the tractor beams, with only the use of commandeered Republic starfighters preventing Yularen from taking a victory, and the Jedi stop the plan altogether. And as for being a Villain Sue, 711 is a brilliant general but not enough of a miracle worker to qualify. All three of the depicted conflicts that 711 was part of technically ended in defeat for the Separatists, they were just extremely pyrrhic for the Republic. And while 711's tactics are brilliant, they also are believable within the Star Wars universe.
Bastard? Too much?
Well, let's just say that from the point he meets Ventress forward, 711 is firmly on the side of the Separatists, with all that entails. The Geneva convention is merely a suggestion with 711. I don't think he's too much of a bastard, though I could see an argument for it considering that it is established that dropping the Pride of the Core on Tipoca City would have wiped out the Kaminoans. However, I'll argue that 1) That wasn't his reason for doing it, in fact he has no real antipathy towards the Kaminoans, and 2) Legends Thrawn has also wiped out a species and is still an MB. 711 does have redeeming qualities; he has a genuine Villainous Friendship with Ventress, he takes prisoners when they surrender, he's horrified by the destruction of the Iraknyan capital and the resultant civilian deaths, and he even feels guilty about his body count after the Battle of Kamino.
The competition?
Grievous is, as always, kind of a loser, though is is portrayed as having some intelligence. Ventress is magnificent, but too close to her canon self. And Gout and Himler are Hate Sinks who obviously don't qualify.
Result?
I think he qualifies, but the fact that he's an SI gives me pause. I don't know if that skews things too much.
Edited by Critica7 on May 7th 2022 at 2:23:18 AM
Check out my current fanfiction project.
The Yggdrasil Cretin
to Wolf and Diane. I do believe Wolf makes it up for all his missteps in the film and he def has the charm and the wit through and through.
Gong Gong, Dodori, Ime, Wolf, & 711
I know I effectively abandoned this thread (it got a little hard to keep up for me), but I thought I might just throw this one out there (also apologize for the sloppy presentation, I typed this on phone)
What’s the work
Pacific Overtures is a lesser know musical by Stephen Sondheim that’s essentially an American Kabuki play that’s a series of vignettes following the Japanese population’s reactions to the Americans (forcefully) opening up trade between the two nations. The play is notable for almost everyone being played by men, as a form of Deliberate Values Dissonance (women were considered second class in Japan back then). It also has a completely Asian cast, no whitewashing. Also Iroh himself, Mako, was in the original show.
You Tube link for the full show here
Who’s the Candidate
In the segment Chrysanthemum Tea, (beginning at the 40:40 timestamp in the full show link) the shogun, when confronted with the issue of the Americans wanting to see him, chooses to ignore the issue. Frustrated with his lack of response, the shogun’s mother creates a plan: if there is no person to accept the letter the Americans sent in, they will take it as a no and go away. To this end, the shogun’s mother sets about poisoning her son with chrysanthemum tea. Doing it in doses so as to not attract suspicion from her son, the mother also distracts the shogun by convincing him to see his soothsayer, priests, and later leads his house in a prayer session, with the rest of the house in on the plan as well. Once the shogun finally kicks the bucket, she’s shown to have prepared a funeral in advance, with the only thing not going to her plan is the shogun briefly springing back to life, which is quickly resolved.
As for the successfulness of the plan, IDK. The character Kayama makes plan disconnected from the shogun’s mothers plan that manages to work to dissuade the Americans (until the second act anyway), and after her song, she disappears from the story.
Magnificence
While her plan is fucked up, it is out of good intentions to keep foreign invaders from Japan (though granted the play does show the situation was far more complex than just “foreigners invading country”), and the shogun is shown to be a hedonistic man more concerned with keeping himself occupied than protecting Japan. Admittedly, I’m not sure if her plan being rendered null by Kayama is too mitigating. Also there’s a running gag where she constantly shuts up the shogun’s cacaphonic wife, which I’m not sure if that’s mitigating, but I think it’s just a “annoying person getting quieted” joke, so I think it’s fine.
Bastard
The entire song is a Black Comedy about a woman gradually killing her own son, so that does constitute bastardness
Final Verdict
You decide.
Edited by nwotyzal on May 7th 2022 at 2:42:14 AM
Okay, yes to the above, but can people start exercising some serious best judgment and slow down?
Can we have a pause on EPs, there's been a lot today? Edit: ![[nja]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/user_ninja_2074.png "[nja]"){kind=small}
'd.
Anyway I'll give a Gong Gong, and I'll read the rest later.
Edited by jjjj2 on May 7th 2022 at 5:43:00 AM
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Fair enough, but she comes across as a Functional Addict when not going through withdraw.