Base Breaking Character Cleanup

Are you sure you're not talking about It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia?

Even disregarding the Middle Ground rule, "every single character" feels like a massive exaggeration. At minimum, zap the header, and going off of my limited knowledge of this show's fandom, I'm fairly confident the fanbases for Michael and Jim completely eclipse their hatebases (dunno about the rest).

Well speaking of bad pages, there's the MLP FIM Base-Breaking Character who lists every single main character, when the majority of them have more fanbases than haters. I could see us keeping Rainbow Dash over the others as she is the most consistently flawed, and thus, is prone to lots of horrible abuse art some of which is played for laughs. Half the fanbase seems to think she's worthy of a lengthy prison sentence, or draws her beating up/spanking Scootaloo and/or her parents. Or being a general Jerk Jock when she's not those, especially not now. Clearly these fans have never seem half the episodes that portray her in a positive light. Spitfire is another solid keeper as for every fan of her, there's like a shit ton of haters. So those two can stay for their hatred among fans but the others? Most of the time the haters of the other characters are bad trolls so I don't think they count.

Edited by Klavice on Jun 14th 2019 at 7:28:37 AM

Pinkie is probably a good candidate, too.

Pinkie for sure, yes.

Fluttershy could also be a keeper due to her fans being EXTREMELY protective over her, and wishing death on anyone who harms her (hence why Angel Bunny was The Scrappy for a while), while her haters wish her dead among other things.

Another possible keeper is Starlight Glimmer because there's plenty of people who think she got off way too easy for essentially trying to end Equestria, and having a rather pitiful Freudian Excuse.

Here's the examples, one by one.

• Rainbow Dash. The base is split between those who think she's a Jerkass due to her arrogance and constant boasting, and those who think she actually has the skills to keep up with her boasts. She's on many fans' "best pony" lists, but also on just as many "worst pony" lists. The trend of Scootabuse (artwork of Rainbow abusing Scootaloo), Rainbow Factory, Pony.MOV, Friendship Is Witchcraft, and other fanworks that exaggerate her attitude have not helped, despite being non-canon. Many early Season 2 episodes which were written before she Took a Level in Kindness and focused more on her competitive drive only increased her hatedom. Rainbow's status as the Element of Loyalty has also been called into question, as episodes such as "The Last Roundup" and "Three's a Crowd" involve her showing no remorse or having her suffer no consequence for ignoring her friends. She's hated in "Trade Ya!" for the unspeakably heinous crime of accidentally trading her friend away for a book, with very few fans realizing she didn't understand what had happened until it was (almost) too late. That said, Rainbow's also had a few episodes where she's shown genuine loyalty, such as when she was willing to quit the Wonderbolts (her lifelong dream) if it meant that her friends were put in danger, and Season 5 onward mellowed her out quite a bit without really impacting her drive and desire to be the best.

This can probably stay but I'll tweak it to show that Dash has equal amounts of haters and lovers. And do a little tidying up.

• Pinkie Pie. While many love her for being a Fun Personified pony whose driving purpose in life is to make others happy, other fans feel that she has a history of making things harder for other characters by being Innocently Insensitive, as she has a character flaw of sometimes not understanding that what she thinks is best doesn't always match reality. Among the many cited moments are Pinkie preventing Twilight from resolving the conflict in "Green Isn't Your Color" because of an arbitrary promise, hurting Luna's attempts to be accepted in "Luna Eclipsed" by pretending to be scared of her, hoarding cider in "The Super Speedy Cider Squeezy 6000", annoying Cranky in "A Friend In Deed", and especially for aggravating Fluttershy's stage fright in "Filli Vanilli". Her habit of being Innocently Insensitive and often not being called out for it has gained her a Hatedom, which isn't helped by her being connected with some of the more controversial aesops of the series (Such as "Swarm of the Century", "Feeling Pinkie Keen" and "A Friend In Deed"). In addition, while many find her "random" humor and hyperactivity hilarious, others find it irritating, though exactly how scatterbrained she is tends to vary between episodes.

Since we agree Pinkie should stay, I'm keeping this but maybe myself or someone else could rewrite it.

• Fluttershy. Some fans go through Hype Backlash when it comes to her cuteness, and find her passiveness and cowardliness irritating rather than endearing. Her willingness to stand up for herself and/or her friends also varies, depending on the episode. Whenever she does something wrong (like hurting her friends’ feelings), she’s quickly forgiven, yet when any of her friends hurt her, they quickly become targets of unrelenting hate as seen with Pinkie Pie in "Filli Vanilli". Her cemented assertiveness in the later seasons also causes this. Some people think it retroactively makes her a walking Moment of Awesome and others think she's now boring and unrelatable, while still others think she's gone too far in her assertiveness and into borderline vindictive territory.

Fluttershy hasn't taken a level in jerkass. She's just as huggable as she's always been, just with tougher skin. It sure as hell isn't Flanderization, where she's arrogant and rude. Her speech to Rainbow, though blunt, for example was necessary.

• Twilight Sparkle got a ton of divisive opinions thrown her way after she became a princess at the end of the third season. Some fans love Twilight and think of her as an Adorkable Badass Bookworm who deserves to be the show's main protagonist. Others see her as overpowered with the writers fawning over her and making her flaws told rather than shown. Even ignoring the issue of her being an alicorn princess entirely, Twilight still gets some flak for having the majority of the show's more dramatic moments focused on her. This has led some bronies to accuse Twilight of stealing the spotlight, especially in the two-part episodes.

This is a toughie, as I do see people complaining about Twilight being a Creator's Pet and being allowed to pretty much do anything without receiving much, but it's been toned down ever since she became a Headmistress of a school. She's kinda the main heroine so it's not unreasonable that she gets the most screentime during two parters. And yet I feel this has a point iun that most of the others are made useless, just so TS can win in the end.

• While the majority of fans like Applejack, she and her family are a Spotlight-Stealing Squad to the point where Applejack has appeared in more episodes than any other major character in the show, and it's left some divided on whether it's a good idea or not. While several Applejack fans appreciate the extra attention especially since she was somewhat Out of Focus in the second season, other fans, particularly ones whose favorite pony is one of the other main characters, are starting to get tired of the extra Character Focus she's recently been getting for the last few years, not helped by the fact that more recent episodes where she's had a leading or major supporting role have started receiving more divisive reception.

Applejack is near universally loved whether she has a ton of spotlight or not. In fact she's the only character in the main six who I have zero hesitation to cut. Her episodes despite being seen as weak are rarely weak because of her.

• Rarity got hit with this pretty hard in the earlier seasons. Until her Hidden Depths were revealed in "Suited for Success". Many people admitted to hating her at first for being dim, shallow, arrogant and useless — in other words, typical Rich Bitch, the very stereotype she was designed to subvert. Her detractors claimed she wasn't fit to wield the Element of Generosity whenever she lapsed into selfishness and greed, often citing her behavior in "Dragonshy" as an example where she cared more about the dragon's treasures than getting the dragon out of his den. As she was given more time to develop, fans eventually warmed up to her, though others were uncomfortable with her upstaging Rainbow Dash in "Sonic Rainboom" and intentionally trying to avoid Twilight's birthday party in "Sweet and Elite". Fans who have grown to like her have said that in her defense, she learned her lesson in each of those two episodes. Even still, fans either love her for being the Drama Queen of the cast or think she's annoying for the same reason. Her famous whining scene in "A Dog and Pony Show" for example is seen as either her funniest moment or yet another excuse to pick on her over-the-top behavior. Her mannerisms are also subject to this with the fan base saying she's either the most proper or the prissiest of the Mane Six.
  • Starting with the second half of Season 5, Rarity has gotten a lot of focus. While some fans are okay with this, others feel like Rarity has become a Spotlight-Stealing Squad that is overshadowing the rest of the Mane Six.

Rarity is a case where out of the mane six she gets Ron the Death Eater 'd the least. I think that's in part to her genuinely selfless nature at times and is generally loved especially when compared to Dash, Pinkie, and Fluttershy. Tough call, but I think I'm gonna say cut.

• A lot of bronies were immediately taken with Spike, who was quickly adopted as the Audience Surrogate of the cast, apparently because he's The One Guy. Some of the tension may be due to the fact that he's written as more of a comedic sidekick. While some fans admire him for his Butt-Monkey status, others don't appreciate how often he is used for Comic Relief, often claiming They Wasted a Perfectly Good Character. It hasn't helped that he is shown to have some amazing abilities, like swimming in lava and fire breath that can melt locks or stadium-sized pieces of ice, Hidden Depths, and a rather mysterious backstory. Many episodes with him as the central character are often disregarded due to him acting like a complete moron, while episodes where he isn't the focus usually have him as The Reliable One. Other fans abhor him being The Chew Toy, referring to the slapstick he goes through as "Spikeabuse" and feeling that the sheer amount of it he's subjected to is unfunny at best and downright meanspirited at worst. However, many fans are in agreement that Season 6 is finally giving him some good spotlight episodes.

Spike is probably the most popular male character. Easy cut.

[[folder:Starlight Glimmer]] No discussion of Base-Breaking Characters in Friendship is Magic would be complete without mentioning Starlight Glimmer, who has caused this reaction ever since she first appeared on the show. From Season 5 onward, Starlight became the newest major addition to the supporting cast, and would end up splitting the fanbase into vocal camps about her. Even though the vitriol against her would eventually calm down, Starlight has caused a sustained conflict among the bronies that doesn't appear to be ending any time soon.

• In her first appearance, she's a major break from the prior arc villains, lacking the size and scope of threat, and seemingly altruistic motives for her actions, painting her as a Visionary Villain. Some found a comparatively mundane villain a breath of fresh air after the old two-parter villain formula was getting predictable. Others found her boring compared to prior villains and felt idiocy was the only reason she lasted as long as she did, much like some prior villains. That she is the first major villain to escape consequences and return as the Big Bad has left room for even more divisiveness.
• In her second appearance in "The Cutie Re-Mark", her "redemption" broke the base even wider. Some saw Starlight as a spoiled and childish Karma Houdini with a poor excuse for a motive who committed terrible crimes and was given a very shallow Heel–Face Turn presented through an abrupt two minute musical montage while other former villains (Princess Luna, Discord, Sunset Shimmer) took entire seasons/movies to earn redemption and were arguably less evil. Others felt that Starlight was a victim whose motives were understandable, that her redemption fit with the overall theme the season went with, and she was appropriately remorseful for her crimes and has the rest of the series to adequately own up to them. Other fans are greatly disappointed with a villain who started out as a very complex and surprisingly frightening villain (being a ponified take on Harrison Bergeron and all) and feel her shallow motive and abrupt Heel–Face Turn was a complete waste of an interesting villain, with others still feeling that some of the things shown in the montage (her reconciliation with the members of her town being the big one) were great potential episodes of their own flushed right down the toilet. Then, with her newfound status as Twilight's pupil in Friendship, essentially making her an unofficial new addition to the core cast, things got extra rough, as some felt it was entirely undeserved and makes her into ascended fan fiction, some are simply embittered that Trixie who has for a long time been seen as a Twilight's rival and candidate for Sixth Ranger didn't get to fill this role, and others yet see her as a blatant Sunset Shimmer Expy, with the exact same role, while others still see it as a new and exciting development for Season 6 and beyond.
• The trailer to "Every Little Thing She Does," where Starlight brainwashes her friends sans Twilight to solve friendship problems, threw even more divisive opinions her way. Some pounced on this, saying this negates her being Rescued from the Scrappy Heap and that she'll be a Karma Houdini due to the season finale relying on her saving Equestria. A shrinking vocal minority doesn't mind it, claiming that Twilight did this in "Lesson Zero" to the point of getting an entire town brawling and had to be bailed out by her friends. Others felt that "two wrongs do not make it right", I.E., someone else doing a bad thing again shouldn't get special treatment for it, and are quick to point out that while Twilight did do that, she was a national hero who had proven her heroism and good intentions time and time again, not a recently reformed criminal who had spent a lifetime of doing wrong and was already given far more leeway and forgiveness than she deserved. The other side comes back and contends that Starlight had legitimately good intentions as well, and she just messed up and is good demonstration of character flaws she as a real student, still needs to work on. Not only that, but they also point out Starlight took responsibility and actually had to work to earn forgiveness from the others, negating her Karma Houdini status.
• Starlight being shown to be very good at complex magic from her introduction, and during "Every Little Thing She Does," was treated by some people as a good setup for her knowing how to combine several spells to achieve the effects of Mind Control later on, and a good way to show her confidence/reliance on her magic to solve her problems in contrast to her poor social skills. For some people, Starlight continuing to be able to pull increasingly more powerful spells that were previously considered impossible to do normally, which are otherwise considered very powerful for the setting or which mimic other ponies (even in-universe fictional superheroes') special talents is making these ponies abilities, talents and uniqueness seem redundant, while making her own arsenal of abilities seem even more special and absurdly powerful for seemingly no particular reason and that Social Anxiety isn't big enough of a character flaw to balance it all out.
• When the synopsis for "To Where and Back Again" was revealed, Starlight became even more of a base breaker when it was revealed she would be taking center stage to rescue the Mane Six from "the return of Equestria's greatest threat". Some were excited at the prospect of the "unlikely team of heroes" she is to assemble, equating it to a pony Suicide Squad and feel this is a perfect finale to her season-wide character arc and will cement her status as reformed and absolved of what she did as a villain. Others feel that having a fourth premiere/finale centering around her is simply too much, especially considering "The Cutie Re-Mark" was focused entirely on her and Twilight Sparkle with the rest of the cast getting bit parts at best and how much prominence she has already been given in Season 6 along with her getting to take the main character slot for an entire two-part finale above the official main characters just reeks of favoritism. Of course, the rift only got worse when the plot essentially involves the entire cast, that is all the royalty and the Mane Six, being thoroughly Worfed without explanation: some are quick to agree that not showing it and/or it happening was a Necessary Weasel to devote time to the actual plot, with others feeling it validates complaints that the narative is shilling Starlight Glimmer by weakening or making other characters look worse.
• Starlight Glimmer's existence has created a simmering inner fan rivalry between her and Sunset Shimmer. It started somewhere around Starlight's introduction when Sunset fans became very vocal about Starlight, mostly claiming her to be a lousy replacement who "stole" Sunset's role as Sixth Ranger in the show, while the other side argues that Sunset Shimmer has only appeared in the Equestria Girls movies and never in the show proper, therefore making it impossible for her role to be actually "stolen", even if her character arc and personality makes her look like a Suspiciously Similar Substitute. Then somewhere along the line the Starlight camp adopted their oppositions habit of bringing up the other character out of the blue and comparing them, which usually leads to the more diehard fans of the two trying to downplay their own champion's past or recent transgressions, while trying to demonize the other. The constant back and forth has lead to calls of Hypocrisy, biased morals and insufferable self-righteousness being thrown all around the board and the same arguments being repeated over and over again, leaving both sides embittered towards one another, and the people who happen to enjoy both characters (or who don't just give a damn about either) tired of the amount vitrol that mentioning one or the other can bring when discussing the show.
  • ... which segways nicely into her appearance in the Equestria Girls specials, which sparked an explosion of cheers from one side of the fandom who are happy to see her EQG design and a character they like finally appearing alongside the Rainbooms. Of course, this sparked an explosion from the other side of the fanbase who are fearing she's going to replace or overshadow Sunset Shimmer, or are simply embittered because of how much prominence she's already been given in the main series.
  • The argument that Sunset doesn't actually exist because she's never appeared or been mentioned in the main series, which means that Starlight "wins" by default by virtue of being a canon character, is often thrown around by the more vehement anti-Sunset or anti-Equestria Girls crowd. It's notable that a lot of these people don't actually like Starlight either, but they hate Sunset and Equestria Girls in general more and don't want them "infecting" the main show.
• The writers' decision to make Starlight only appear in episodes she's the focus of. Some feel it's fine and helps not force her into places she doesn't belong, others find it jarring and denies her more chances to show her character and feel like part of the show, and of course her sizeable hatedom is thankful for it because they already feel she's been given far too much exposure and prominence this season and feel it's a breath of fresh air and a return to normalcy. Of course, that hasn't stopped Starlight from making a Cameo in "Spice Up Your Life" and "Top Bolt", so there's that as well.
  • Starting with Season 7, the writers started to give Starlight non-cameo appearances outside her own friendship lessons, but not as the main attraction of the story. In addition to possibly helping her fit in to the show overall, this can also been as an effort to placate complaints that usually whenever Starlight is present in a story, she tends to hog the spotlight away from everyone else. Of course, this is also a double-edged sword since it means even more Starlight than ever, much to the chagrin of her sizeable hatedom.
• Because the teasers for "Celestial Advice" suggested that the show would finally say goodbye to Starlight, the fact that it ultimately didn't so that has re-ignited the whole discussion across the community.
• After Starlight's Heel–Face Turn the staff has tried to perform some damage control with the stories that involve her, which has improved her standing to some extent. Whether these attempts have been enough to lead Starlight being Rescued from the Scrappy Heap completely, been in the right direction but not enough, have given rise to new issues, tried to fix them from the wrong angle or just focused on the wrong issues is still something that gets different types of answers from person to person.

If Glimmer does stay, she needs a huge trimming. I don't think we need to talk about literally "Every Little thing she does". She's a good candidate to stay though given her infamous relationship in being a sort of Karma Houdini in most episodes which would get most other characters punished.

• Fans are divided on the Cutie Mark Crusaders. Are they a fair deviation from the Mane Cast or are they given too much exposure? Also, their approach to getting their cutie marks has been divided ever since their talents are hinted at in "The Show Stoppers". Their divisiveness has increased with each season with fans getting tired of them getting denied their cutie marks and not being allowed to grow up. However, with them finally getting their cutie marks in Season 5's "Crusaders of the Lost Mark", fans are almost unanimous in believing that it was a good thing. The rift became over whether they should have gotten their cutie marks sooner, and with fans split over whether their talent of helping others find their destiny was a good and creative idea or a cop-out that tossed out established abilities that had been built up since season 1 as potential special talents.

Considering the Cutie Mark Crusaders (with the exception of Apple Bloom) are arguably more generally liked than their sisters (adopted or not) to the point the only one with any actual hate coming her way is Scootaloo because Scootabuse is apparently funny. There's also the fact that Scootaloo isn't an orphan at all, so no more "Scootaloo has no mom/dad jokes." I'd say maybe cut?

And that's just the tip.

Edited by Klavice on Jun 14th 2019 at 7:55:07 AM

I agree that Starlight does not need an entire folder. That is just ridiculous. You can trim that back to one paragraph like the rest, but she certainly is divisive.

Spike is a difficult one, but I think the real issue is that he tends to become the butt monkey or hold the idiot ball during his own dedicated episodes, while he is generally helpful and clever when he is not the main focus. I think any divisiveness over that is more about the way the episodes treat him.

As for those who find it odd that so many characters are base breaking, remember that this is a show that leans heavily on it's aesops and is often willing to undo some character development or give it's characters the jerkass ball in order to get the aesop they want. It also has a lot of primary characters, which tends to lead to fights over who is the best character. There is (was?) also a huge, diverse, and very opinionated fanbase who loved discussing the show online, which inevitably leads to disagreements.

I got PM'd by another troper whether Ron from Kim Possible counts as a Base-Breaking Character. I don't know, but I'd add in a "Maybe". I know some fans dislike him but he also has his fans as well.

Last year the Base-Breaking Character page for Doctor Who was cut because it was decided that the fandom was too contentious to the point where there was no agreement on any character, with every Doctor and Companion listed on the page.

Last month one troper, has restored the page and all it's examples, without going through this thread.

That honestly sounds like something you should bring up in Ask The Tropers.

Honestly, that reasoning sounds confusing. There are no base breaking characters because the fandom is TOO contentious? How does that make sense?

If every character is a base-breaking character, then listing any of them individually - or literally all of them - is just silly. That sort of thing makes more sense as an example of Unpleasable Fanbase.

But that's contradictory. It doesn't make sense to me that when a show has too many base breaking characters, then the solution is to not list any at all. What counts as too many?

That actually sounds like something to discuss in the TRS thread.

There's a couple of zero-context examples on the Shaman King YMMV page:

• Pirika is notably loved by some, but also hated by others.
• Lyserg is another big one where some forgive his trespasses, and others do not.

Does anyone here have more familiarity with the series and/or the fandom who would be able to elaborate on why these characters count as base-breaking, if they do indeed count?

Edited by unexplainedEnemy on Jun 22nd 2019 at 11:07:11 AM

I just rewrote RD's entry. How does this look?

• Rainbow Dash is seen by a number of fans the most consistently flawed of the mane six, so it's only natural she receives this. Despite having a rocky start, as the series went on, she became significantly nicer and a Cool Big Sis to the rest of the heroines, as well as Scootaloo despite being around the same age as the others. Fans are divided on whether or not she deserves to be celebrated in spite of her shortcomings. There are also fans who think her status as the Element of Loyalty is questionable as she shows little to no remorse or doesn't get punished enough in episodes where she abandons her friends. At least until Season 5. She is also the most likely to forget an Aesop due to her competitive nature, but still has a ton of good qualities such as her love of children showcased as a mentor for Scootaloo, and actually fearing for her life in one episode. She is usually on many fans Best Pony list or Worst Pomy list with very little middle ground. Whether you like the old Sugar-and-Ice Personality Rainbow Dash she started as, or the selfless Friend to All Children Cool Big Sis Lovable Jock Rainbow Dash that she became, is also up for debate especially when she switches between the two, Depending on the Writer.

Fixed. I took out the episodes and it's a lot less bashy. (I actually like said character so... it's unbiased.)

Fixed again. Hopefully this is good.

Edited by Klavice on Jun 23rd 2019 at 3:36:24 AM

That looks good, though it is a pretty long paragraph.

That entry seems a bit too slanted towards personally criticizing the character and reads more like a "Why this character isn't very good" entry, which Base-Breaking Character is not about. Entry is also way too long.

Edited by dragonfire5000 on Jun 23rd 2019 at 8:02:56 AM

The entry probably doesn't need to include so many specific episode titles as it bloats the entry's length.

I took out specific episode examples which trimmed quite a bit off it.

Hopefully, it's good now.

Still looks way too bloated, and seems to spend too much time talking about the negatives.

I would like to bring up a few of Family Guy's Base-Breaking Character entries that I believe should be reevaluated. Let me know if this acceptable.

• Stewie, post-Badass Decay, with some arguing that he's a pathetic shadow of his former self (something that has been occasionally addressed within the show itself). The fact that the current Stewie is probably one of the most likable members of the current Griffin family, as well as providing a good chunk of the series' humor, still keeps him fairly popular.
  • If he's still popular than that means there are is no sizable hatedom. Cut.

• Meg. She is either the biggest woobie ever or a lame Flat Character who deserves her Butt-Monkey status. Her abuse is either funny ("Shut up Meg" is Memetic Mutation) or the worst thing about the show (for her fans).
  • Her abuse has practically become nonexistent as of season 14 and has been given a bit more focus. Cut.

• Peter is either loved because his random and stupid antics keep the show entertaining or hated for being a Psychopathic Manchild and abusing his daughter for his own amusement.
  • He's listed under Rescued from the Scrappy Heap and the abuse towards his daughter and his psychopathic manchild tendencies have been heavily toned downed. Cut

• Brian. People either like him for being the Only Sane Man and his friendship with Stewie, or hate him for being a self-absorbed Author Avatar. His death is either the best thing to ever happen to the show (for those that hate him for being said self-absorbed Author Avatar), or the absolute worst thing to happen to the show (for his own fans).
  • Listed under Rescued from the Scrappy Heap as well. Also, listed as a Creator's Pet, even though two of the requirements are Character Shilling, something he cleary does not get and being the The Scrappy, which him being listed as a base breaker character should already disqualify him as a candidate. There's also the fact that his Author Avatar tendencies have since been toned downed and his hatedom and conflicts have more or less mellowed from what I've seen. Cut.

• Chris. He's either liked for his Adorkable moments as well as being one of the more likeable characters on the show or seen as the most forgettable member of the Griffins who only spouts out the same, tiring masturbation jokes. He's neither intensely loved nor intensely hated.
  • His increased interaction with Stewie has made him a little more popular.

The Meg entry can be saved as a historic example if people can make a strong enough case for the two sides.

OK, and what of the others? Can I proceed with removing them?

For Stewie, "fairly popular" means that he has a good amount of fans, but it doesn't automatically mean that he can't have a lot of haters too.

Also, being Rescued from the Scrappy Heap doesn't necessarily disqualify a character from Base-Breaking Character status. If a character goes from The Scrappy to Base-Breaker, or from Base-Breaker to Slightly Less Controversial Base-Breaker, that can count as being both Rescued and a Base-Breaker.

OK, but can I at least remove Brian from the Creator's Pet entry and Chris since again, being neither intensely loved or hated means the fandom doesn't care about him?