Base Breaking Character Cleanup

borderline ZCE anyway. Cut.

I removed all MCU examples except for Darcy per discussion above.

I think it's worth putting Wanda back up as well, in addition to Steve and Tony. She still remains very divisive as we can see in some of discussions on this board to this day. And I see people continue to rush to her defense against Tony, or blast her for being a Karma Houdini and begrudge Civil War for whitewashing her actions. Loki also has a fairly large contingent of people who hate him and find him unsympathetic for being a villain who did bad things, and were exacerbated by his Draco in Leather Pants fanbase.

Edited by AlleyOop on Jan 18th 2019 at 1:24:19 PM

If you read the first post in this thread, it says "two (or more) vocal, almost equally sized factions" of fans. All these characters have haters, but I'd say over 90 percent of fans either like them or are indifferent towards them. It's not a 50x50 split, nor a 40x60 split, which is a requirement for this trope. Merely having a Vocal Minority hating a character is not enough to qualify.

If Tony, Steve, Wanda and Loki really were examples of this trope, Marvel wouldn't keep them as protagonists of films or TV shows ;-)

Real base-breakers are Darcy and perhaps the Mandarin.

Edited by Asherinka on Jan 18th 2019 at 10:02:08 PM

While I agree with your position regarding the examples, this doesn't hold up - we have one, possibly several tropes regarding creators pushing characters who are divisive or outright disliked.

Ok, valid point.

Reposting from the previous page:

Bringing up these examples from Sonic Forces:

• Base-Breaking Character:
  • The Custom Hero avatar, as some think this is appealing towards more questionable parts of the Sonic fanbase, as well as leading the Modern and Classic Sonics to be less refined in design due to falling back into the Adventure series motto of unwanted multiple playstyles. On the flipside, others acknowledge that with other franchises out there such as Dragon Ball Xenoverse gaining large amounts of popularity for being able to make your own custom character, combined with Sonic Forces being designed with this in mind from the start, it could have some interesting potential alongside their Wispon gadget weapons varying up gameplay. There's also the selection of Avatar species: all but one of them are mammals, with some also calling the inclusion of both a Dog and a Wolf redundant.
  • Due to the series' change in tone since Sonic Colors, people have been split down the middle with Sonic's ramped-up personality. Some people think he's an obnoxious joke machine who never takes anything seriously, the breaking point being when Sonic , after supposedly being "captured" and "tortured" for six months, just acts as if everything merely inconveniences him and jokes around with Infinite, compared to before when despite still cracking jokes and constantly showboating, still understood when things were serious. Others prefer his jokey attitude as a reminder of the Saturday morning cartoons, and don't mind his humor at all, to the point of preferring it over failed attempts at being serious.
  • Infinite was already stirring fans up between two camps of acceptance for trying something new, and bile hatred for what looked like a severely edgy-looking foe when Shadow was already part of the bad guy roster. Ironically, he's both loved and hated for similar reasons. One side loves his Dark Is Evil design, his metal theme song, the fact Liam O'Brien is voicing him, and just his overall "holier than thou" attitude throughout the entire game. The opposition, however, find those very same elements excessively trite and see him as a tryhard edgy OC, not unlike those which most younger Sonic fans create themselves, and those very same elements were why Shadow was this trope for so many years. This only got worse when his backstory was revealed in Episode Shadow and the prequel comics. He was just a mercenary squad captain and aligned himself with Eggman, but went insane after he lost a fight to Shadow to become who he is. People are split on either finding him sympathetic despite his actions or finding the shift abrupt and laughably pathetic.
  • Zavok being one of the villains of the game. Those who cannot stand Sonic Lost World and/or the Deadly Six aren't too thrilled to see him again, while others see this as a chance to redeem the character and flesh out his personality. And then there are those who are glad that it's just him alone and not some of the sillier members of the Six, as they would clash with the Darker and Edgier tone of the story. Though The Reveal that it's not the real Zavok kinda renders this moot... or makes the problem worse, depending on who you ask. The fact that he gets a boss fight over other favourites like Shadow or Chaos is also very contested.

Anything in particular you want us to look at in these examples? I notice that people often ignore your posts, which may be due to you not explaining why you're bringing these examples up.

I found this example on BaseBreakingCharacter.Persona 5:

• Mika, the antagonist of the Lovers Confidant. Her supporters love her design, her snarky attitude and her hardworking hardiness...Others hate her because of how mean she is to other girls like Ann, how she sabotages other young models' jobs by stealing them away, how she is too relevant to the confidant unlike Ann's best friend Shiho and that she never gets punished all because her model agency (that Ann also works in) will suffer if her crimes are exposed.

Mika is a very minor character who to my knowledge only shows up during Ann's confidant scenes, and therefore probably doesn't actually break the base (I never see her being discussed on any Persona-related forum). Even I barely even remember her existence. On top of this, all of the negative points she has are intentional since she's meant to be an antagonist.

Not familiar with Persona.

As for the Sonic Forces examples, I reiterates that the Sonic Fandom similar to the like of Star Wars, Doctor Who or Game Of Thrones, is so big and contentious that's it's hard to get a picture of what fans agree.

Edited by Silverblade2 on Jan 21st 2019 at 5:03:13 PM

A Lright, I'll try to finish my review of BaseBreakingCharacter.Arrow

What I wrote on the previous page:

• Thea: The entry mainly focus how she's been Rescued from the Scrappy Heap.
• Laurel: I think she's a keeper and she was indeed very divisive in the earlier seasons.
• Barry Allen: This is basically about the announcement of the casting of Grant Gustin. The Flash is now on its fifth season. Cut
• Count Vertigo: While he's indeed divisive, he's a minor and inconsequential villain who appears in three episodes. That and the entry is mostly complaining about him not being like his comic counterpart.
• Slade: The entry outright says that he's an example but only to a portion of the fanbase. The comic fans who dislike the changes from the comics even thought it has been long established that Arrow wasn't a faithful adaptation. Overal, he's one the most popular Big Bads of the show.
• Roy and Sara: Just complaining. The entry outright says that they are "well-liked" in general. Besides, Sara is a massive Breakout Character who now leads her own show.
• Felicity: I think she's a keeper. She's indeed now the single most contentious character thought her haters are the most vocals.
• Malcolm Merlyn: I think he might be a keeper but this entry needs a rewritte. The second point is a complaining is knee-jerk reaction to season 3 finale.
• Ray Palmer: Just complaining with no elaboration on the positive side. I think Ray has been mostly Rescued from the Scrappy Heap in Legends of Tomorrow.

Now...

• Quentin Lance: Nothing but complains.
• Oliver Queen: He's the freaking main character. Anyway the entry is just about how he's too much like Batman.
• Damien Darhk: This is all about the Unfortunate Implications of him being a Nazi who gaz a jewish woman during Hanukah. The subbullet is nothing but complains.
• Anarky: Ok this one has the merit of elaborating on both sides but I'm unsure if he's a sustained case.
• Vixen: Nothing but complains. She only appears in one episode also.
• Susan Willaims: This one also elaborate on both sidess which is always a plus.
• Curtis: Nothing but complains. Again.
• Cayden James: This one also elaborates the two sides.
• Ricardo Diaz: Seems like a knee jerk reaction after an episode. His arc is still ongoing right now.

Verdict:

Absolute cut because they're popular and only a minority dislikes them: Barry, Slade, Roy, Sara and Oliver. Cut because they're nothing but thinly veiled Scrappy entries: Ray, Quentin, Damian, Vixen and Curtis. Might keep but could deserve a rewrite: Thea, Laurel, Felicity and Malcolm.

Unsure about the rest...

Edited by Silverblade2 on Jan 21st 2019 at 10:03:04 AM

YMMV.Phoenix Wright Ace Attorney Spirit Of Justice:

Its example about Nahyuta Sahmadhi sounds more of a rant on the character and his writing than an explanation on how he is polarizing. I know that his sanctimonious dialog, his constant insult to the defendant and their defense lawyers and his pursuit to get a guilty verdict have made him annoying for some.

While Nahyuta is definitely a Base-Breaking Character from what I've seen, his entry should be rewritten to be more balanced.

What do you think of him?

Found this entry in Resident Evil 7: Biohazard

• Base-Breaking Character:
  • Mia falls into this during the core game. Since Ethan Winters married her, it is safe to assume he has an emotional bond with her. But The Player does not, and the game does not succeed at creating one, not when Mia's Establishing Character Moment is chainsawing off your hand. Then you are given a Sadistic Choice between using the cure on her or on a character (Zoe) who has served as Mission Control, left you useful hints, and stapled your hand back on. Even worse, the game presents the choice as just a branching plot moment, and won't particularly be punished if you go with your gut and, well, save someone who was nice to you. Nope: it's actually the difference between the Good and Bad Endings Saving Mia is the correct choice; if you save Zoe instead, the game kills them both, and Ethan ignores her death in favor of lamenting Mia's. All this But Thou Must! left a sour taste in some players' mouths.

This entry feels like whoever wrote it had something against Mia, as it barely lists any good points about her and decides to harp on about how canonically Ethan chose to save her. Personal troper bias aside, i don't think Mia is noticeable a base breaking character, or at least i haven't heard much complaints about her.

Mia's "bad points" seem out of context. In a zombie world sawing off people's hands are not necessarily signs of Jerkass.

Yeah Mia's entry is nothing but complains.

Can anyone comment on the Arrow examples?

I saw BaseBreakingCharacter.Battle Royale in the "recent edits" feed, and nearly every example on the page is "[character]: [positive description] or [negative description]?" Most of them read more like Alternate Character Interpretations since they don't seem to be about how the character is received by fans.

Uh that's a bunch or near Zero Context Example. I vote to cut the page.

Likewise. Questions do not equal context.

Alright Young Justice

• Base-Breaking Character:
  • Miss Martian. A horrible abomination of a character, or a delightful breath of fresh air in a team full of jerks? Her Catchphrase ("Hellooo, Megan!") isn't helping matters. Though these turned out to be Arc Words as well, directly connected to her character issues (and indirectly, Beast Boy). As of "Earthlings", we have whether or not her mind raping a Krolotean leader to get information was unnecessary and overkilling it or whether she did what she had to do. This latter behaviour also extends into her relationship with Superboy, with the disturbing implications of her abuse of power on him.
  • Artemis has her share of haters as well. An intriguing character (Dark and Troubled Past, Broken Bird, Badass Family That Slays Together) or just a snotty bitch? You decide!
  • The Light are either Magnificent Bastards or Invincible Villains, depending on who you ask.
  • The Joker also suffers from this: some are criticizing how the show handled him, while others defend the show's take. Some are also annoyed he isn't voiced by Mark Hamill (Batman: The Animated Series et cetera) or John DiMaggio (Batman: Under the Red Hood).
  • Klarion the Witch Boy. It's not so much his personality as his role in being a member of the Light. Even then, you have people saying he's a funny Faux Affably Evil villain, and people who find him annoying.
  • Dr Fate breaks just as many bases as his above nemesis. Some fans consider him a Knight Templar the League should have destroyed, others consider his actions, while harsh, both understandable and justified. Sharing an opinion on the matter among fans is bound to start a fight.
  • Aqualad is either viewed as being an awesome stoic leader, or a Flat Character who never expresses any emotion. There's also those who say Greg Weisman is making him overly perfect at the expense of Dick (by making him leader instead of Dick, though this was remedied as of Season 2 until The Reveal and finale arc) and Garth (by not having Garth becoming Aqualad before Kaldur). And then in Season 2 there's his off-screen Face–Heel Turn. And then this turns out to be fake. And then there are those who feel he doesn't get enough of screen time compare to the other characters.
  • Kid Flash is either viewed as a childish Jerkass (especially compared to previous incarnations), or being one of the funnier and more genuinely likable characters on the show. However, some see the episode "Coldhearted", late in Season 1, as the point where he gets some much-needed maturity.
  • Lagoon Boy: Is he an obnoxious, brash jerk towards Superboy or is his behavior justified because Conner not-so-subtly belittles and picks on him because of his lingering feelings for Ms. Martian? Note that even though the base is broken on whether his behavior is justified, he's still rather disliked.
  • Nightwing's actions. Was he right to keep the team out of the loop? Was his plan too risky? Was he wrong for kicking Arsenal off the team?
  • Arsenal. Does he endanger the Team too much to settle his own agenda, or is he a Shell-Shocked Veteran who didn't get proper treatment for his obvious PTSD?
  • Superman's refusal to help Superboy or spend any time with him at all during the first season rubbed a lot of people the wrong way and brought up some serious questions about this particular Man of Steel's morality and compassion. Also a divisive character for whether or not Superman was actually justified in feeling uncomfortable around Superboy, a clone made without his knowledge or permission for shady reasons, and wanting distance when Superboy did nothing to really merit such treatment.

Miss Martian, Dr Fate, Aqualad and maybe Superman could count even if their current write ups could be rewritten because some are biased toward negative.

The rest are a bunch of Zero Context Examples that basically amounts to "Is Bob a good or a bad character? You decide!" with no elaboration about how they are received in the fandom.

The Light is a freaking group with each members having distinctive personalities. It's a false dichotomy if you say that you either hate or love them all.

As the entry says, Lagoon Boys is mostly a scrappy. He's easily the least popular team member and, at best, some people don't mind him.

The Joker indeed has mixed to negative reception. However, he only appears in a grand total of ONE episode.

I'd like to nominate Blake Belladonna and Cinder Fall from RWBY.

Say what you will about Jaune Arc or Sun Wukong who have also been suggested for this trope, but these two I've found to be the most divisive characters in their show.

• Blake I've seen praised for her story arc and flaws making her seem more realistic while also having nice interactions with Yang and Sun, but I've also seen her criticized for being annoying and her story being Arc Fatigue, with her even being on many peoples top five hated characters lists and called the source of all the shipping drama.
• Cinder I've found four opinions on. She's either poorly written and annoying (Typically the response of Critics but also of fans), she's developing albeit slowly and has people's interest, she's subjected to Draco In Leather Pants (Including by one infamous troper on here who shall not be named), or she's overstayed her welcome and needs to die for the crap she's pulled.

And unlike Sun and Jaune who are only in the hot seat when they do something divisive, these two are perpetually liked or hated regardless of screen time or not.

Yeah, I agree they count, especially Cindy.

The problem with Cinder is that there are plenty of people who don't care about her. Since the trope requires the middle ground to not exist, I'm not sure Cinder counts. There are a lot of different opinions but the fanbase isn't irrevocably split on the matter.

I'm not a hundred percent certain about Blake either, for similar reasons. Yes, there are a lot of different opinions of her and entire groups within the fandom that disagree about her. But no middle ground? The fandom being at war over her? Shipping wars certainly exist, it's true (Black Sun versus Bumblebee, which is Blake/Sun versus Blake/Yang), but Blake herself? I'm not convinced, and there is a middle ground.

Edited to add: I've got a vague recollection that a clean-up of this trope for RWBY has been done in the past.

Edited by Wyldchyld on Mar 2nd 2019 at 9:44:21 AM

Blake definitely qualifies. People either love or hate her for various reasons and are extremely vocal about it.

Edited by Karxrida on Mar 2nd 2019 at 2:54:38 AM

Any response on those MLP examples I posted a while back? I wouldn't place literally every major character on the page. Rainbow Dash maybe but the others have enough fans that they should be cut. I would also like to add the School Of Friendship's students as there are a large enough chunk of fans who hated the idea and hate the characters involved with it especially Smolder, Gallus, Ocellus, and especially Silverstream.

Edited by Klavice on Mar 2nd 2019 at 4:39:54 AM