Needs Help: Fragile Speedster

I refuse the motion to repurpose as foil and I wanna keep the Competitive Balance angle with the offense, defense and speet stats.

Mainly because Glass Cannon, Stone Wall and Lightning Bruiser would disagree.

And If I have my way, I'll revive Paper Ram and Forceless Speedster. (And maybe Turbo Turtler as well)

edited 18th Mar '15 5:46:27 PM by DAN004

I'm glad this discussion finally got opened. The last time I tried to get a TRS thread open on this I got shot down.

Anyways, there are two possible ways to fix this:

1. Make Fragile Speedster (low defensive power / high speed) and Mighty Glacier (high power / low speed) true foils of each other. However, this would require Fragile Speedster to be renamed to something like Weak Speedster in order to include the "low offensive power" attribute into the name, and likely involve cutting a lot of examples.
2. Revive Forceless Speedster (low offensive power / high speed), which would finally provide a separate trope for that archetype to be associated with instead of tropers constantly incorrectly associating the "low offensive power" attribute with Fragile Speedster. Fragile Speedster keeps its current definition.

edited 18th Mar '15 6:27:33 PM by shiro_okami

Defensive speed offensive speed? That doesn't make any kind of difference.

But that reverts us back to the Offense-Defense-Speed conversation and that's going to go a million different ways.

I would rather not get into the messy discussion of creating 2-7 or more new tropes to complete all the combinations of The Offense-Defense-Speed Trifecta (which is where this conversation went last time and then fizzled out), when with one line we could complete the relevant combinations of foil pairs and leave this alone.

With respect, please keep this discussion focused on Fragile Speedster and Mighty Glacier.

edited 18th Mar '15 6:32:36 PM by acrobox

OK, for the sake of keeping things simple I will keep to the established "trifecta".

Okay, completed another Wick Check.

My Method:

Took the square root of 2880 wicks and rounded up to a sample size of 60, with subexamples for pages with multiple uses of the term. Included direct quotes where applicable. Since acrobox' argument relies on a pattern of misuse in which people mistake Fragile Speedster for meaning (or being able to mean) "fast + weak" as opposed to "fast + fragile," I sorted each wick into one of four categories:

• Correct. Correctly implements the definition currently in place, which is "fast + fragile." Since strength / offense is not a concern according to the current definition, high-offense examples, low-offense examples, examples in the middle, and examples in which strength / offense is not mentioned all count.
• Incorrect. Uses or implies a definition of Fragile Speedster as "fast + weak" or low-offense. Examples which establish speed and fragility and also mention low offense incidentally or tangentially do not count as incorrect unless they are phrased in such a way as to imply that weakness / low offense is part of the definition of Fragile Speedster.
• Misuse. Any example which appears to give full context, but does not meet either of the above definitions.
• Ambiguous. Zero Context Examples, Pot Holes that do not give sufficient context to determine use, etc.

The Data:

• Alpha Flight: "Notably averted with Northstar and Aurora. It was explicitly stated that the faster they moved, the tougher they became in turn." Correct. Listed as an aversion because the characters are fast and tough. High offensive power is also mentioned incidentally in the next line.
• Artistic License – Military: Ambiguous. Pot Hole; insufficient context to determine use.
• Battle Pirates: "The Forsaken Sea Wolf is fast and great at kiting, but has only one armor slot and a very low inherent armor value." Correct. Fast + fragile, no mention of strength / offense.
• Bleach: Zanpakuto: "She's quick, but she can barely handle any sorta damage done to her." Correct. Fast + fragile, no mention of strength / offense.
• Fairy Tail Tenrou Group: "...he had a tendency to turn himself into a Fragile Speedster/Glass Cannon. ...caused him to wear himself out and make it easier... to beat him." Ambiguous. Mentions overlap with Glass Cannon; establishes fragility but does not explicitly mention speed or offense / strength.
• Combat and Support: "Combat: Fragile Speedster and/or Glass Cannon, for capturing objectives" Ambiguous. Mentions overlap with Glass Cannon but does not explicitly establish attributes. (Note: This trope is incredibly shoe-horn-y and could probably use a TRS thread of its own.)
• Cutlass Between the Teeth: "...the eponymous hero's werewolf-themed Fragile Speedster form uses a fire-elemental Cutlass Between the Teeth slash as its Finishing Move." Ambiguous. Pot Hole; insufficient context to determine use. Implied high attack.
• Diablo III: "Goddamned Bats: Lacuni Huntresses may not have much health, but they love to ambush you, come in packs, move fast, will easily close the distance between you with one leap, and attack very quickly." Correct. Fast + fragile, mentions high offensive power incidentally in the next line.
• Dragon Ball Xenoverse: "Frieza's [sic] clan have high speed, but low attack power. When health drops under 50%, speed increases." Incorrect. Fast + weak, no explicit mention of fragility. (Note: This example was reproduced on the main Xenoverse page; a troper deleted it for not fitting the current definition of Fragile Speedster, which is what led to the Edit War that led to acrobox starting this TRS.)
• Echoes The Madara Guys: "She moves around a lot very fast, and uses swift attacks." Ambiguous. Establishes speed, does not explicitly mention either strength / offense (except to say "attacks swiftly") or toughness.
• Sonic Unleashed: "Lightning Bruiser: Sonic becomes one here, instead of being the usual Fragile Speedster/Glass Cannon...." Ambiguous. Overlap with Glass Cannon noted; otherwise a Pot Hole with insufficient context to determine use.
• Freedom City: Ambiguous. Zero Context Example
• Glacier Waif: Ambiguous. Several instances of contrasting Fragile Speedster with Glacier Waif / Mighty Glacier on the basis of speed.
• Characters/Guyver: Ambiguous. Zero Context Example
• Hit-and-Run Tactics: "A favoured [sic] tactic of the Fragile Speedster, both in Real Life and in Video Games. Get quickly into range, attack (either from range or in a sudden, surprising and hard-hitting charge), and flee before the enemy have the time to react." Ambiguous. Mentions speed and offense but not toughness/fragility.
• Intrigued by Humanity: Ambiguous. Pot Hole; insufficient context to determine use.
• Kamen Rider Faiz: Ambiguous. Zero Context Example
• Kingdom Rush: Ambiguous. Zero Context Example; Listed as overlap with Glass Cannon and mentions fragility elsewhere in the entry.
• Lightning Bruiser: Correct. Explicitly defines Fragile Speedster as fast + fragile without reference to offense / strength.
• Tabletop Game/Malifaux: "The Dreamer is the squishiest, fastest Master in the game, he even lacks a decent offensive attack...." Correct. Fast + fragile; mentions low offense incidentally.
• Mercenary Kings: "The Runner enemies have very little health, but will rapidly charge you with knives once provoked." Correct. Fast + fragile, no mention of offense / strength.
• Recettear: An Item Shop's Tale: "Charme, hits and moves fast, but can't take much punishment." Correct. Fast + fragile, no mention of offense / strength.
• Nether Earth: "Fragile Speedster / Mighty Glacier: Attempted, but failed. "Bipod" is the slowest chassis, but gives bonus to hit points. Not enough to compensate for its low speed of movement and turning." Misuse. Bizarre example, almost certainly misuse by anyone's definition.
• On Strange Wings: Ambiguous. Zero Context Example. Entry also listed as Glass Cannon.
• Plane Spotting: Ambiguous. Insufficient context to determine use.
• Powered Armor: Ambiguous. Pot Hole; insufficient context to determine use.
• Realm of the Mad God:
  • "Though not as squishy as robe classes, the Rogue is nowhere near as durable as Warriors or Paladins, meaning that if your cloak timing is off, you can get bombarded with shots and possibly be killed. However, the invisibility from the cloak makes the Rogues amazing dungeon rushers because of their ability to run through rooms quickly and bypass enemy fire." Correct. Fast + fragile, no mention of offense / strength.
  • "Fragile Speedster/Glass Cannon: The Assassin has the highest SPD in the game, and has higher damage than other dagger classes thanks to his poison, but as a leather class, he is nowhere as durable as Warriors or Paladins, let alone Knights." Correct. Fast + fragile, high offense, listed as overlap with Glass Cannon.
  • "The Trickster is the fastest class (tied with the Rogue and the Assassin), and has good DPS with her dagger, but she lacks healing and defence, so if her decoy placement is off she can easily get herself killed." Correct. Fast + fragile, no mention of offense. Note: Also listed as a Jack of All Stats, which is almost certainly misuse of that trope.
  • "The Ninja can run very fast with the shuriken, but his short range is paired with his fragility and low vitality relative to the melee classes. To overcome this, the Ninja uses extreme speed to evade damage, and his damage output to defeat enemies quickly - paired together, the Ninja often closes up on its target quickly and brings it down before he takes too much damage." Correct. Fast + fragile, also mentions high offense.
• Characters/Rollbots: "He's quick, but once Vett catches up with him, he gets swatted like a bug." Correct. Fast + fragile, no mention of offense.
• Scrappy Mechanic: Ambiguous. Pot Hole; insufficient context to determine use.
• Game-Breaker/Simulation: "[The TIE Defender, a Game-Breaker and Master of All] was faster than the A-Wing and Tie Interceptor...." Ambiguous. Pot Hole; fast, no mention of toughness or offense / strength.
• Starlit Heroics Nachzehrer: "They're capable of running, but they're not that durable." Correct. Fast + fragile, no mention of offense / strength.'''
• Video Game/Suikoden: Ambiguous. Pot Hole with insufficient context to determine use.
• Super Smash Flash 1: "Most of his attacks involve Death of a Thousand Cuts, he has fairly low KO power, and he's not too hard to launch due to his light weight. However, his fast attacks serve as a good defense, rendering the fragility moot if played well." Incorrect. Fast + fragile, but written in such a way as to imply low offense is part of the trope.
• Team Fortress 2: Ambiguous. Pot Hole with insufficient context to determine use.
• The Castles of Doctor Creep: "Your character, in comparison to the other monsters. One touch from the monsters will kill you, and you can't fight them directly, but you can move faster than them [sic]." Correct. Fast + fragile, no mention of offense / strength.
• The Long Road Home: "Whiplash. Only lightly armored as a necessary tradeoff for superior speed and maneuverability." Correct. Fast + fragile, no mention of offense / strength.
• The Wonderful 101:
  • "Longer-ranged and faster than the Unite Hand, but weaker, making it best-suited to clearing swarms of tiny enemies like Dough-Goos." Incorrect. Fast + weak, no mention of toughness.
  • "Dispatched very easily with Unite Gun and doesn't offer a whole lot in terms of firepower, but You-Houghs are fast." Incorrect. Fast + fragile, but written in such a way as to imply low offense is part of the trope.
• Transformers Prime Decepticons:
  • "Fragile Speedster/Lightning Bruiser: Somewhere in between the two tropes." Misuse. He's either a Fragile Speedster or a Lightning Bruiser or neither, not both. Sounds like probably a Jack of All Stats.
  • "He can deal out quite a bit of damage, but can't take what he dishes out." Misuse. Strong + fragile, no mention of speed. Sounds more like a Glass Cannon.
  • "Their flight mode is consistently portrayed as being much, much more fragile than their ground mode." Correct. Fast + fragile. There's an ambiguous second line that says something about offense, but it's hard to tell what without knowing the show; should probably be deleted.
• Ultimate Marvel vs. Capcom 3:
  • "He doesn't have that big of a damage output, and his Level 3 hyper isn't a direct attack unlike most others. His health is also 850K, among the lowest in the game. However he's very maneuverable, and one of his hypers increases his speed further." Incorrect. Fast + fragile, but written in such a way as to imply low offense is part of the trope.
• Video Games: Ambiguous. Pot Hole; insufficient context to determine use.
• Warhammer 40000 Spacemarine: Ambiguous. Pot Hole; establishes "fragile" but nothing else.
• Whos Afraid Of: "She's very aware that if she isn't quick in a fight, she won't last long." Correct. Fast + fragile, no mention of offense.
• Wronski Feint: "Wedge pulls off a variation... against a frail, but agile TIE Raptor." Correct. Fast + fragile, no mention of offense.
• Zoids: New Century: "The Lightning Saix's ridiculous speed is its only advantage, but it's overwhelming when put to good use." Ambiguous. Establishes speed, no mention of anything else.
• Wreck It Ralph Main Character: Ambiguous. Pot Hole with unsufficient context to determine use.
• Virtua Fighter: Ambiguous. Zero Context Example.
• ToyHammer: Ambiguous. Overlap with Glass Cannon noted, no other context.
• The World Ends with You: "He's... incredibly fast on his board... but doesn't have a lot of defense." Correct. Fast + fragile, no mention of strength / offense.
• Characters/Tsukihime: "Fragile compared to his chosen prey, anyway." Ambiguous. Establishes fragility but nothing else.
• The Nexus: "A very fast, dangerous wrestler with a very lethal finisher, that's also very bad for him if he screws up." Correct. Fast + fragile, also high offense. Listed as overlap with Glass Cannon.
• The Flash (2014): "Comparatively - despite being more resistant to harm than the average person thanks to his super speed, Barry will still injure himself if he runs into something at said speed." Correct. Fast + (relatively) fragile.
• Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles: Turtles in Time: "...Raph became quick but defensively weak...." Correct. Fast + fragile, no mention of offense.
• Sword Fight: Ambiguous. Not enough context to determine use.
• Super Mario Bros: Bowser and his Baddies: "...his personal kart has one of the highest maximum speeds of any of the lightweight karts, but also the lightest in weight, making it easy to knock around." Correct. Fast + fragile.
• Still Waters 3 Organizations: Ambiguous. Zero Context Example.
• Spartacus Blood And Sand Protagonists Vengeance: "Nasir is much slighter than the other rebels, both in height and weight. As a direct result of this, he's been trained by Lugo to rely on quick reflexes and natural speed to fight effectively alongside the gladiators." Ambiguous. Fast + "slight," whatever that's supposed to mean. No explicit mention of either toughness or strength / offense.
• Sixty Four: "Glass Cannon: ...Allie, using high speed and agility while attacking with multiple, weak hits at once." Ambiguous. Fast, ambiguous strength / offense, no mention of toughness.
• Shadowdemon: Ambiguous. Zero Context Example.
• Sam & Max: Freelance Police: "Her dexterity score is over 400, but when Sam bonks her once with a blade just one attack point over her defense, that puts an end to her game." Correct. Fast + fragile, no mention of strength / offense.
• Samurai Sentai Shinkenger: Ambiguous. Zero Context Example.

Results:

• Correct: 25 examples.
• Incorrect: 5 examples.
• Misuse: 3 examples.
• Ambiguous: 32 examples.

Interpretation:

The elephant in the room is the number of ambiguous examples. Regardless of what else we do, I think we need an organized effort to clean out Zero Context Examples.

Other than that, it seems to me that the current definition is working out just fine. There are a handful of misuses, likely leftovers from previous definitions of the trope, but nothing so overwhelming as to require a redefinition.

Simply put, it's a can of worms we don't need.

edited 20th Mar '15 4:10:45 PM by hbi2k

By counting low offense examples as "fast + fragile" instead of "fast + weak" the wick check is already stacked against the proposed motion. The motion depends on low offense examples being viewed differently.

During the first wick check I also encountered a fair amount of ZCE, but I usually skipped them to find something I could categorize, hence why my ambiguous section is much smaller. But I agree there are a lot of ambiguous examples and zero context examples all over the site.

The proposed motion doesn't phrase it in such as way that makes it a requirement for the trope. It lists it as a recurring facet. People keep Glacier examples that are High offense and Low Speed and those that are High defense and Low speed already. I'm not sure why this is cause for alarm or what 'historical' situation you are referring to.

The situation that caused this is in fact the opposite as indicated by the Dragonball Xenoverse example on your wick check.

Conclusion Adding up both wick checks, both operating on slightly different definitions of what is being searched for, and both likely tainted by some amount of confirmation bias the current tally is

Add new line that makes 'fragile + fast' and/or 'weak + fast' inclusive in Fragile Speedster: 39 + 5 = 44

Don't add new line, keep Fragile Speedster strictly 'fragile + fast': 25 + 13 = 38

Ambiguous/Misuse: 33 + 1 - 34

The rationale for adding the new line that suggests low offense being potentially included is to allow various works to decide for themselves what 'weak' means when you say a character is 'weak + fast.' It would include a wider variety of works, and make it a more perfect foil to Mighty Glacier who is categorized as 'strong + slow' for a variety of definitions of strong.

The rationale against is that 'fragile + fast' is its own thing, making examples that don't have an explicit metric for fragility non-eligible. This also preserves examples who are fragile but not weak on offense from being deleted by people who would take the suggestion of low offense as a mandate. This has the side effect of making FS an imperfect foil to MG.

Discuss

edited 19th Mar '15 1:55:37 PM by acrobox

—>"By counting low offense examples as "fast + fragile" instead of "fast + weak" the wick check is already stacked against the proposed motion. The motion depends on low offense examples being viewed differently."

Low-offense examples aren't counted as "fast + fragile." The low offense isn't taken into account one way or another. It's only counted as "fast + fragile" if the fragility is established separately from being offensively weak.

—>"The situation that caused this is in fact the opposite as indicated by the Dragonball Xenoverse example on your wick check."

The Xenoverse example wasn't removed because it's low offense, it was removed because it's not established as fragile. Adding a line or two saying that Fragile Speedsters sometimes have low offense wouldn't change that. And if the Xenoverse example is fragile, then it can be restored once the proper context is added.

edited 19th Mar '15 1:29:50 PM by hbi2k

Your concern was if the line was included that made the trope 'fragile + fast or weak + fast' would start deleting 'fragile + fast.'

What caused this argument is that someone included an example that fit under 'weak + fast' and it was deleted.

That's all I meant.

Well, that's the thing. You're presenting it as though you're only proposing to expand the definition to include low strength, but you're not. The definition already includes low strength, and high strength, and anything in between.

What you're really proposing is to change the definition from "fast + fragile" to "fast + fragile, unless it's low strength, in which case it doesn't need to be fragile anymore."

The former is clear, concise, easy to understand and to implement. The latter muddies the waters.

edited 19th Mar '15 2:00:29 PM by hbi2k

Wow. That's a good wick check!

Regarding this one:

• Spartacus Blood And Sand Protagonists Vengeance: "Nasir is much slighter than the other rebels, both in height and weight. As a direct result of this, he's been trained by Lugo to rely on quick reflexes and natural speed to fight effectively alongside the gladiators." Ambiguous. Fast + "slight," whatever that's supposed to mean. No explicit mention of either toughness or strength / offense.

"Slighter" is generally used to mean smaller, shorter, lighter, less bulky, or less muscled. Robert Downey Jr is "slighter" than Chris Hemsworth. It doesn't necessarily mean weak or fragile.

^^ I don't know why you're phrasing it in the most muddy way possible. Is Mighty Glacier difficult to implement? Yes or No?

acrobox "Weak" and "Fragile" are not interchangeable. The current definition specifies that "fragile" must be present. "Weak" can be present as well, but does not have to be. Arguing that " "fast+weak", with no mention of "fragile" " is a valid use of the trope is faulty according to the current definition.

A wick check is done according to the current definition, not the one that someone wants it to be changed to. "It will be less work to simply change the definition than to clean up the bad wicks" is 'not sufficient reason to redefine a trope.

^ Because the definition you're proposing is muddy. You want to change "fast+fragile. Period. End of sentence." to " 'Fast+fragile", or 'fast+weak', or 'fast+weak+fragile' — any of those count."

edited 19th Mar '15 2:12:05 PM by Madrugada

^^ Yes, but that's a subject for another TRS thread.

I never argued that it was valid. I argued that people are using it as such. The two wick checks combined together prove this.

No one is disputing this. Both wick checks were done according to the current definition.

That's a mischaracterization of the argument. The argument is that the amount of badwicks has gotten to the point where the trope has drifted, and it is being used in such a way on its own page, in several examples, and in several super tropes / indexes to indicate that the drift is should be acknowledged.

I'm not suggesting a total overhaul. I'm suggesting for the drift the be acknowledged as an alternative to the creation of several more difficult to implement tropes.

edited 19th Mar '15 2:19:00 PM by acrobox

Incidentally, I noticed another pattern while performing my wick check, which was that examples in which Fragile Speedster and Glass Cannon overlap are often listed in character pages under the same bullet, e.g.:

• Fragile Speedster / Glass Cannon: [example text]

or

• Glass Cannon / Fragile Speedster: [example text]

This is bad Example Indentation; examples which count as both tropes should have each trope listed separately, along with example text which establishes proper context for each, e.g.:

• Fragile Speedster: Can break Mach 10 but can be broken by breathing on it wrong.
• Glass Cannon: Can easily break your face if you don't break its face first, but fortunately its face is very breakable.

If/when we get around to cleaning up all the ambiguity and Zero Context Examples, we should also make a point of correcting this where we find it.

edited 19th Mar '15 2:18:47 PM by hbi2k

^ That recurring pattern says 'fragile speedster but he's strong'

if fragile speedster didn't suggest weakness already and strength was truly irrelevant - it would likely by separated from glass cannon more often than not already.

you would have

• Fragile Speedster: He's can break mach10, and he's pretty strong too.

And you wouldn't even need the glass cannon example. The instinct is to say both tropes in the same bullet to qualify Speedster as a trope, instead of qualifying it in the example text in which it would feel like a subversion.

I know its not a subversion, but it feels like one. That's evidence of your Incorrect category.

edited 19th Mar '15 2:27:31 PM by acrobox

^ As I've said before, that's simply not the case. The description of Fragile Speedster straight-up says that it often overlaps with Glass Cannon; people just like noting when it's that particular variation, which is fine as long as they get their indentation right, which they do far more often than not (the exceptions do need to be corrected, of course). If anything, it's evidence that the system works.

edited 19th Mar '15 2:31:30 PM by hbi2k

Tropes are allowed to overlap; the definition even says that about this and Glass Cannon. The same paragraph also says that it contrasts with Mighty Glacier, and isn't necessarily a foil to it.

"Often overlaps with Glass Cannon, creating an archetype that's fast and powerful but can't take a hit. Contrast Mighty Glacier, who sacrifices speed for strength. Heavy characters can sometimes turn into Fragile Speedsters via Shed Armor, Gain Speed. Contrast the Lightning Bruiser, who is fast without any loss to durability."

I honestly don't see any point of this thread outside of cleaning up some unrelated Zero Context Exampless and bad Example Indentation.

Freaking ninjas.

edited 19th Mar '15 2:33:09 PM by Karxrida

I'd add that it's fine to note overlap with Glass Cannon when it happens, but both tropes still need their own entry, e.g.:

• Fragile Speedster: Can break Mach 10 but can be broken by breathing on it wrong. Can also break your face.
• Glass Cannon: Can easily break your face if you don't break its face first, but fortunately its face is very breakable. If you can hit it.

I'm explaining a likely rationale for why its not set up like that in the first place.

Yes I know that tropes can often overlap.

Anyway my overall point still stands, the wick check is still in favor.

edited 19th Mar '15 2:39:15 PM by acrobox

^ No, it's really not. There are some examples of misuse, certainly, and those should be corrected.

Enough misuse to constitute drift.

As in more misuse than correct use.

As is indicated by wick checks.

44/38/32

the largest category is misuse.

If you're casually browsing the site you're more likely to encounter misuse than correct use. More likely to think that misuse is the default state. The trope has drifted.

Also both the Competitive Balance and the Power at a Price pages list them as foils.

edited 19th Mar '15 2:44:35 PM by acrobox

Only if you count overlap with Glass Cannon or contrast with Mighty Glacier as drift, which, as has been explained multiple times, they aren't, but are in fact 100% in line with the definition.

edited 19th Mar '15 2:45:36 PM by hbi2k