Trope Misuse Cleanup In General

Here's a misuse of Stealth Pun that I removed earlier:

• The Princess and the Frog: At the end of the movie the firefly, Ray, dies, and a funeral is held for him. After his funeral, he is reincarnated as a star in the night sky.

The "pun" relies on really bad sinkholes in order to work, and there's almost no chance that the Grave of the Fireflies example was intentional. Any objections?

Frankly you shouldn't even have to ask. No.

Comic Books lists a bunch of things that aren't aimed at younger readers such as Invincible, and I don't know if it will have enough examples for a subpage once it is cleaned up. Also, the Clayface entry at the top is talking about things other than death.

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I'm pretty sure most, if not all, of the examples under DeconstructedCharacterArchetype.The 100 Girlfriends Who Really Really Really Really Really Love You are shoehorns but I'd like a second opinion before snipping anything since I'm not familiar with the manga. They read more like explanations or subversions than deconstructions and some aren't realistic scenarios. From what I know I think it's an over-the-top screwball comedy so I doubt that there's much deconstruction in it, let alone every harem member that appeared so far being one.

I write stories about naked people beating demons, gods, and eldritch horrors.

Following up on this discussion over on the "Is this an example?" thread, Bottle Episode is relative to the other instalments of the work, but the trope page has acquired thirty or so live action film examples.

Some (Star Trek, Jurassic Park) are part of a series or franchise, and look as if they meet that requirement, but the majority seem to be standalone films.

Should we cut? And is it worth adding more guidance to the page to prevent this reoccurring?

Edited by Mrph1 on Mar 22nd 2023 at 8:48:35 AM

One more question from me - is anyone looking at Series Fauxnale?

The intro makes it clear that this is "an installment of a work that was originally planned to serve as its conclusion, but ultimately becomes known as just another (if particularly impressive) episode"

However, the page (and entries elsewhere) does seem to have a lot of YMMV "this works as a finale for fans because" statements - e.g.

Where it's Alternate Continuity in those examples, I'd argue that's a real finale for that particular story - and the other stuff doesn't seem to qualify at all?

(Spider-Man is by no means the only example, but illustrates it well)

"It could be argued" appears twice. Maybe it's not really a trope (YMMV or trivia) and instead needs a run at the repair shop.

Yeah, that makes sense. I can see an argument that it would benefit from a split, as it's both:

• If the creators intended it as a finale, but the work changed before completion and it wasn't, that's probably Trivia (much like Un-Canceled, which feels similar).

• If the creators didn't intend it as a finale, but fans think it works as one (the scenario I think's currently misuse, as written), that's YMMV.

Edited by Mrph1 on Mar 27th 2023 at 11:26:30 AM

I can't decide if Cutesy Name Town's example list has problems, or if I just want it to have problems so I can make Meaningful Town Name or something else broader, instead.

Can I get a second opinion?

Edited by Malady on Mar 28th 2023 at 10:06:02 AM

Disambig Needed: Help with those issues! tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=13324299140A37493800&page=24#comment-576

Remade and Improved has some examples that don't belong. Mostly due to tropers not understanding what does and does not qualify as a remake according to the trope description, which clearly states "NOTE: To count the remake has to be in the same medium as the original work, otherwise it's an adaptation which is a separate concept."

• Cinderella (2015) has its share of fans who actually prefer it to the 1950 Disney original - for touches like fleshing out the character of the prince, establishing Lady Tremaine as a Foil for Cinderella and enough differences that they could view it as simply another interpretation. Lily James's performance in the title role was also widely acclaimed.
  • This is not the majority opinion. The 2015 version received positive reviews from critics and audiences, but not as positive as the 1950 version, which has higher ratings on both Rotten Tomatoes and IMDB.

• While Disney's 1967 adaptation of The Jungle Book remains a beloved classic, the 2016 live-action remake is considered by many to be an objective improvement on many regards. The original had received criticism for being rough in both its animation style and its writing (widely agreed to not have the most robust plot or protagonist), with the remake instead opting for a Scenery Porn-laden adventure in the jungle that better expands on its core characters, especially in giving Mowgli more moments of proactivity and ingenuity rather than pinballing from set-piece to set-piece. To date, it remains one of the most financially and critically successful entries of the modern Disney Live-Action Remakes.
  • This does not qualify as a remake because both movies are adaptations of an existing book.

• The Parent Trap (1998) is remembered far more than the 1961 original it's remaking (both are adapting the German book Lottie & Lisa) - for Lindsay Lohan's impressive performance as both twin sisters, the late Natasha Richardson showing off her comedic talents, Elaine Hendrix as a laughably fun villain and for putting Nancy Meyers on the map as a director. Some don't even know it's a remake.
  • This does not qualify because both movies are based on a book. The troper even mentions the book.

• West Side Story (1961) was critically acclaimed and won several Oscars when it first came out, but it was widely agreed to have aged poorly - mainly for the decision to have mostly white actors in Brownface playing Puerto Ricans (even the Latina Rita Moreno had to darken her skin to look how they believed she should) and most of the singing being dubbed. While the original is seen as Fair for Its Day, Stephen Spielberg's 2021 remake was met with a torrent of praise for updating the story, casting actual Latino actors in the corresponding roles, fleshing out many characters who had been divisive or disliked and generally being an all-round better production. Maria in particular has often been viewed as one of the blandest leads in musical theatre, but Rachel Zegler's spirited performance was widely viewed as one of the best takes on the character, to say nothing of Ariana De Bose, who won an Oscar for her role as Anita that even Rita Moreno herself said was better than her turn in the 1961 original. Stephen Sondheim, who passed away shortly before its release, still got to see it and stated he preferred it to the original.
  • Again, this isn't a remake. Both films are based on an existing stage play.

Edited by SergeantBane on Apr 14th 2023 at 10:04:12 AM

Warrior Cats has examples under Inheritance Murder that I think should really be in Klingon Promotion, because they thing they are "inheriting" is the leadership they are second in command for. The examples:

Clan law dictates that the Clan deputy becomes leader if the leader dies. In the first series, Tigerclaw attempted to murder his leader, Bluestar; he, as ThunderClan's deputy, would have inherited her position if he had succeeded. Done successfully by Brokentail, who killed his own father and leader of the Clan after being made deputy himself.

Should I switch this to Klingon Promotion?

Edited by molokai198 on Mar 29th 2023 at 1:48:04 PM

Yeah, move it.

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

Looking at the Wings of Fire page and I came across that apparently the series is listed as an example of Anyone Can Die (though the entry does admit it's not to the extent of most examples of this trope. But when you look at the list of characters on the example mentioned to die, almost all of them don't count as major, non-villain characters.

Book 1 kills off Hvitur, the SkyWing dragonet, Dune, and Kestrel. Book 2 kills off Crocodile and Whirlpool. Book 4 kills off Viper, Battlewinner, and Morrowseer. Book 5 kills off Burn and Blister. Book 6 kills off Carnelian. Book 8 kills off Queen Scarlet. Book 10 erases Darkstalker from existence. It's confirmed via This example contains a TRIVIA entry. It should be moved to the TRIVIA tab.Word of God that he will stay as Peacemaker forever, will never remember his past self, and will vaporize into nothing if the transformation is undone since his immortality spells were nullified. Book 13 kills off Hawthorn.

Let's see, in order - Hvitur and the SkyWing dragonet only appear in the prologue of the first book, where they die (though the SkyWing dragonet's death is unexpected in the sense that they are one of The Chosen Many and the prophecy says they are't supposed to die), Dune and Kestrel are somewhat villainous and Abusive Parents characters (though Well-Intentioned Extremist also) and Dune dies 1/3 through the first book so there wasn't that much time to develop him as a character. Kestrel at least gets developed as a character before dying at the very end of the book, but still falls into the trend of mostly only villains dying.

Whirlpool is a minor villain, Crocodile is a very minor villain who only appears in the prologue and briefly at the end.

Viper is a pretty minor and somewhat mean/antagonistic character, Battlewinner and Morrowseer are villains and Battlewinner didn't even have much screen time.

Burn and Blister are again villains and the Big Bad Ensemble of the first arc.

Carnelian is the only one on this list that would arguably count towards Anyone Can Die, as she gets introduced as one of the class of 7 dragonets that are set up to be the main cast who will get PO Vs in the later books, though she still wasn't that well-developed due to only being introduced in book 6. Nonetheless you need at least two major deaths to count as Anyone Can Die.

Scarlet is a villain and the Disc-One Final Boss of the arc who one would expect to die.

Darkstalker is the Big Bad who is, again, expected to be defeated, although he is a heavily focused-on character who is at the center of a prequel book and has significant sympathetic qualities.

I really think this series doesn't actually qualify for this trope, especially given they have a new POV character any book and none of the 15 POV characters have ever died, in their book or a later one.

Edited by molokai198 on Mar 29th 2023 at 4:41:07 AM

Infinity Wars (2018), Infinity Warps, Arachknight, Ghost Panther, Iron Hammer, Soldier Supreme, Weapon Hex, and Secret Warps all have instances of Composite Character that I feel like should actually be listed as Fusion Dance.

In those comics, the universe is folded in half, and pairs of characters are merged together in-universe. For example, Laura Kinney and Wanda Maximoff become Weapon Hex. Should these be listed as Fusion Dance or kept as Composite Character?

This might be more of a question for Is this an example? but...

Do those two separate characters exist within the continuity of that universe prior to being merged? If so, it's definitely Fusion Dance.

If they have no individual existence or history before being merged - so, within that universe, Ghost Panther has only ever been Ghost Panther, then it's closer to the "combined in this continuity" adaptational role of Composite Character, but I think there might be a case for listing both.

If individual works don't directly state that each character is based on two merged characters from the 'main' Marvel continuity, there may be some All in the Manual there as well.

Edited by Mrph1 on Mar 31st 2023 at 4:05:12 PM

Yes, the two separate characters exist in continuity before it happens. Ghost Panther was Ghost Rider and Black Panther before it happened.

Ok, I've just skimmed the first few issues (thank you, MU) -

So, the separate characters exist in the main Marvel Universe. Then the Crisis Crossover gimmick is the creation of a new halved/folded universe where every character is a Composite Character of two pre-existing characters and has always been that way - so Ghost Panther has a life story that's a mix of T'Challa (Black Panther) and Johnny Blaze (Ghost Rider) and, in that universe, was never two different people.

I still think that's falling between both tropes. Within the 'Warps' setting itself there is no merge/split happening at a character level - everyone in that setting/continuity is a Composite Character, and the in-universe Fusion Dance element was in the main Marvel Universe setting when it was created. Which is a little bit meta.

My verdict would still be Composite Character for stories within that setting (as nobody is fusing/splitting and the two characters have never had separate identities in-universe) but Fusion Dance if you're talking about the Infinity Wars Crisis Crossover story and how its anagonist forcibly merged people, and then a universe (via Cosmic Retcon), in the first place.

Edited by Mrph1 on Mar 31st 2023 at 6:50:41 PM

So should it be both tropes separated by a slash? Like CompositeCharacter/FusionDance? Just to keep things simple?

Edited by SergeantBane on Mar 31st 2023 at 10:59:19 AM

No, that's improper example indentation. Both entries should get separate write ups if possible.

Macron's notes

I want to keep checking in to see if I have permission to delete Anyone Can Die from Wings of Fire but also:

I see Cruel and Unusual Death being misused a lot for deaths that are very quick with the person not having much chance to feel pain, but look gruesome/horrific. There is one that I edited already before I discovered this thread I could use to check in, from Tigana, where the trope who edited it apparently thought that the characters who had their arms, legs and back broken, their hands cut off and stuffed int their mouth, and then were strapped to a wheel to die weren't that big an example of it, but the character whose head was exploded and died instantly was a much stronger example. Fixing that is acceptable, right?

Also one I haven't changed, in Gone we have a character listed for Cruel and Unusual Death who got hit in the chest by a burning light power that destroyed her heart and killed her very quickly, I feel like that would fall into "too quick to be a Cruel and Unusual Death".

MacronNotes Alright, that makes sense.

What about the Remade and Improved examples I posted about?

From Plot Armor:

I don't know how much of this is valid, but I am inclined to believe Serena doesn't count. The claim she hadn't been defeated in battle is outright false, as the series' first ever triple battle has her Pokemon go down despite being accompanied by the much stronger Ash. She also loses a few showcases along the way to the big one, and she also loses there, too. Close losses are still losses, no matter how much the entry tries to downplay them.

I feel like we should watch out for misuse of Politically Incorrect Villain, it's supposed to be "a villain is bigoted but that's not the main reason why they are a villain, they are evil for some other reason and do something bigoted just to make the audience hate the character more.

However I saw it get used here in a fanfic I saw mentioned as an example on the TLP, The Sun Will Come Up And The Seasons Will Change:

Politically Incorrect Villain: Dana is incredibly ableist towards autistic people, which leads her to abuse her own daughter just because she’s autistic. One chapter has her lash out at Edith for actually caring for and accepting her own autistic daughter and sees autism as something to stomp out and forcibly cure. Dr. Goldman is a Jerkass who uses his career to force autistic children through harmful and potentially fatal quack therapies to “cure” autism. According to Todd, he suggested forcibly sedating the three-year-old Mary after nothing more than a half-hearted and cursory examination and then screamed at her to shut up after she non-verbally asks for a drink. Dana's mother Irene is a Female Misogynist that abuses her daughter for not being the “perfect housewife” even in adulthood, and claims autism is something invented to excuse bad behavior.

From what I can see from the examples (though I haven't read it), these characters are purely villains because they are bigoted and abusive against Mary for being autistic, rather than being villains for some other reason and also abusive towards Mary. I bet this isn't the only misuse example either...

Does anyone else think this Take That! entry in Spider-Man: Across the Spider-Verse is a stretch?

• Miguel specifically cites the MCU Earth as Earth-199999, which is possibly a jab at Kevin Feige's insistence that the MCU is on Earth-616 despite fan backlash.

Edited by good-morning on Apr 5th 2023 at 12:31:58 PM

oh hey how are you doing?

The fact that it only says it is "possibly" a habit doesn't give me good hopes

Also, in response to earlier on this page, I agree that Wings of Fire isn't a case of Anyone Can Die. While it is true that some named characters die, pretty much none of the main characters die (at least from the books I read), and the entry listing villain deaths doesn't help its case. But the way it was removed was weird, because the sub-bullets are now listed under Anti-Climax

Edited by KingofNightmares on Apr 12th 2023 at 6:47:42 AM

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