Is this an example?

I think you're looking for Pay Evil unto Evil instead. Ripple kills Swim-Swim (paying evil) because Swim-Swim kills X (evil).

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Reposting previous question; I'm not certain that this trope applies, but since the examples were terribly long and conversational, I've tried revising them. Are they appropriate to the trope, or should they be deleted?

• Omniscient Morality License: The major powers within the Foundation series all acknowledge their limitations, this includes the fact that they aren't omniscient. However, their Angst doesn't stop several groups from deciding that they have the duty to take action and modify the future of the galaxy.
  • The earliest mover/shaker in the series, R. Daneel Olivaw, is actually a nearly-immortal robot, based on Dr Asimov's Three Laws. He understands the concept of the Zeroth Law, but finds it difficult to definitely violate the First Law (prevent harm to a human) in order to maybe obey the Zeroth Law (prevent harm to humanity). In Forward the Foundation, he resigns his public office in favour of Hari Seldon, claiming that he is unable to make government-related decisions without violating one of the Laws.
  • Hari Seldon, having developed a new science — "psychohistory" — that allows him to mathematically predict large-scale future trends. He is initially reluctant to even develop this science, finding it to be "useless for practical problems". However, he gradually changes his mind on the subject and is able to work out a few simple models that allow him limited prescience during Forward the Foundation. It is at this point that he can mathematically prove that the Empire will collapse within a few hundred years. He believes that the collapse of civilization, causing disorder and disaster, would be a bad thing. His one tool, psychohistory, only allows him to make broad guesses given certain starting conditions. So he works out the Seldon Plan; a set of predictions that covers the next thousand years, and he figures out what starting conditions will create a Second Galactic Empire within that time-frame. A second Galactic Empire being seen as better than warfare and disunity.
  • The Second Foundation is an organization that inherited the tools of psychohistory. Their objective is to preserve and expand the Seldon Plan; preserving the civilization and extending their rule into infinity (or at least until the heat death of the universe). The First Foundation, however, is frightened by the idea of losing their freedom of choice due to a preordained fate. The Second Foundation, however, still believes that their subtle rule (due to studying psychology and sociology) is better than the brutish leadership from the physical sciences.
  • Gaia, introduced in Foundation's Edge and which was created by Three Laws-Compliant robots (including R. Daneel Olivaw), feels compelled to try expanding their Hive Mind to the entire galaxy, creating a galactic Genius Loci. However, it/they recognizes that it/they are biased, so Golan Trevize is manipulated into choosing which fate is right; the First Foundation, the Second Foundation, or Galaxia. Afterwards, one of his major after-the-fact arguments for choosing Gaia is that it leaves the two other options potentially still open (as the other two would destroy Gaia at the minimum, while Gaia will subtly continue to support both until Galaxia is finally achieved) for the next few centuries or so, in case he changed his mind or something happens that changes the circumstances.

Edited by crazysamaritan on Jul 16th 2019 at 7:27:50 AM

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

Those don't look like valid examples as written to me. There's a whole lot of words, but those words don't properly establish that the parties involved are all-knowing / infallible, and it doesn't specify what actions they're taking that would be morally objectionable if they weren't all-knowing / infallible.

Agreed. The way its written doesn't seem to indicate the try.

Want to have a second opinion on this.

Since Asshole Victim seems to have some trouble examples. I wonder if this counts for Characters.Magical Girl Raising Project for Swim-Swim.

Asshole Victim: No one is mourning Swim Swim's death after Ripple puts her down for killing her best friend.

I read Asshole Victim's death cant have some type of relationship with there and is just a jerk who gets killed. If the death is some type of payback for what they did, would it be Karmic Death?

Did you mean third opinion, or did you want my opinion explained? I left one at the top of my previous post.

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That's basically why I don't think it applies. To strip out nearly all context, characters with more power and knowledge than anyone else make decisions about the future of the galaxy while Angsting that they could be making the wrong choices. I'll leave that as my edit reason for removal.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

I just want to make sure on whether or not it was an example so it wouldn't be seen as rash. The answer you gave was clear.

I was thinking of adding this to Insult to Rocks. Is it an example? Better fit for something else?

Edited by Ferot_Dreadnaught on Jul 17th 2019 at 5:25:31 AM

What is the subject of the negative comparison? Is that not just a pun in a Cluster F-Bomb?

From YMMV.Young Justice

• No Yay: The season seems to be Ship Teasing Will/Artemis, which has been met with heavy backlash from the fanbase (and is also a sentiment shared by Will and Artemis themselves) due to Artemis and Wally being the Fan-Preferred Couple, as well as the weirdness of siblings-in-law getting together while their wife/sister is still alive and their relationship status with their spouse is ambiguous.

Is No Yay being used correctly or is it influenced by shipping?

If you ignore shipping, fans wouldn't want this since they are in laws and the two are still in love with their significant others.

I'm pretty sure that's being used incorrectly, since the relationship doesn't seem inherently squicky, just uncomfortable.

Edit: To clarify, a relationship that is inherently problematic, like a character and their child, can be No Yay. A relationship that fans don't like because they prefer a different one is not the trope at all.

Edited by Fighteer on Jul 17th 2019 at 2:55:06 PM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

Not Blood Siblings is a thing, so I imagine such relationships aren't squicky enough.

Contains 20% less fat than the leading value brand!

For Recap.Duck Tales 2017 S 1 E 24 The Shadow War Part II The Day Of The Ducks, I am certain this second entry is not correct.

• Took a Level in Badass:
  • Donald suddenly becomes a lot more capable of effortlessly taking charge of his friends, authoritatively coordinating their attack and saying incredibly badass things practically the very second he starts talking with the smooth, dulcet tones of Don Cheadle.Don Cheadle.
  • As if to compensate, this trope is inverted with Beakley, whose usual efficiency is slightly downplayed; while she's still capable of throwing down with multiple ghosts, Donald keeps stealing her thunder when it comes to the "announce the plan and make badass declarations" part of the proceedings. It's also telling that after Donald leaves her in charge of the houseboat, after confidently boasting that if he can do it "how hard can it be?", her brief tenure as captain ends with the boat on fire and sinking. Essentially, Donald and Beakley seem to briefly swap roles this episode.

I mean even if they were correct, would it even count? It sounds like a complaint. The last line that was added is wrong anyway as Donald has always been competent when the situation calls for it. EDIT: Furthermore, Donald has taken several took a level in badass and no one lost their competency when he did those other times.

Edited by LadyErinNY on Jul 17th 2019 at 2:27:06 AM

Besides, the writeup is wrong: No Yay is about creepy, not unpopular, pairings.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

From YMMV.Young Justice

Franchise Original Sin: Most of the more controversial and discussed aspects of Season 3 aren't new.

• The voice acting. As noted prominently in the trivia section, Young Justice has always had to employ clever audio tricks or heavily reuse voice actors, because many episodes feature so many different characters that bringing in different voice actors for each is not practical from a budget standpoint. The issues some have with the voice acting for child characters, such as Amistad and Lian, is, however, new, simply because characters of their age weren't present in prior seasons.
• Character Relationships. The show has always been weird about pairing characters, developing relationships, and teasing others, with many of the most prominent relationships being created whole cloth by the show itself, and many relationships not getting the proper development. Conner/M'gann and Wally/Artemis, as can be shown by entries covering the earlier two seasons, had some detractors because they had no basis in the original comics. Cassie/Tim are a rather infamous example of the show suddenly pairing characters with little build-up, as the two had never even been shown speaking to each other before they were stated to have gotten together, and each having more prominent love interests than each other in the comics (though they have dated in the comics, it's just not the relationship most fans of either character like). Will/Artemis, however, is controversial for
• Representation. The show has always been big on having a racially diverse cast, with characters such as Artemis getting a Race Lift, Kaldur being created to take the role of Aqualad, etc. The problem (well, one of them) with Violet, however, is that being Muslim isn't racial, though that is a very common mistake many make, and her appearance (dark skin, headscarf) fits the stereotype of what a Muslim woman looks like. A Muslim is a follower of Islam, no different than a Christian is a follower of Christianity, which are religions, not races, thus they require more than most race changes require to fully represent. And Young Justice, much like most popular entertainment, has skirted around religion, with none of the characters ever referencing it, or claiming belief or disbelief. It's obvious why the creators would want to specifically represent Muslims (as opposed to other religions) given topical events, but Violet was never a good fit given her origin of being the spirit of a Motherbox, an extraterrestrial pseudo-mystical object/being that would have no concept or connection to a human religion.

Im doubtful if any of these are true issues from the first season that became more noticeable in later season. Especially the two last bullets on relationships and representing that goes on a long rambling.

^ The troper who posted the Franchise Original Sin entries has added even more to it. It's now this (apologies for the wall of text):

• Franchise Original Sin: Most of the more controversial and discussed aspects of Season 3 aren't new.
  • The voice acting. As noted prominently in the trivia section, Young Justice has always had to employ clever audio tricks or heavily reuse voice actors, because many episodes feature so many different characters that bringing in a different voice actor for each is not practical from a budget standpoint. This is usually mitigated by the talent of the voice cast (Bugg is voiced by the same actor as Wally, but you'd be hardpressed to mix them up), there being in-universe reasons for characters having similar voices (Superboy is a clone of Superman; M'gann based herself after Marie Logan) as well as the fact that most of the main characters are all voiced by different voice actors, but with each actor doing several smaller roles; but each season adds more and more characters meaning more and more roles to voice in addition to the ones that already exist, so some of the voice actors end up voicing many, many roles. The issues some have with the voice acting for child characters, such as Amistad and Lian, is, however, new, simply because characters of their age weren't present in prior seasons, and can probably be explained by the fact that they are young children being voiced by adults, with Lian being voiced by the same actress as both Jade and Paula.
  • Character Relationships. The show has always been weird about pairing characters, developing relationships, and teasing others, with many of the most prominent relationships being created whole cloth by the show itself, and many relationships not getting the proper development. Conner/M'gann and Wally/Artemis, as can be shown by entries covering the earlier two seasons, had some detractors because they had no basis in the original comics. Cassie/Tim are a rather infamous example of the show suddenly pairing characters with little build-up, as the two had never even been shown speaking to each other before they were stated to have gotten together, and each having more prominent love interests than each other in the comics (though they have dated in the comics, it's just not the relationship most fans of either character like). Will/Artemis, however, is controversial for unique reasons that go beyond the usual. There are the usual shipping reasons, Artemis/Wally is arguably the most popular (canon) relationship the series has, so any teasing of pairing Artemis with someone else after Wally's death (real or not) was going to be controversial, but the fact it's with her own brother-in-law adds an extra Squick, with romantic relationships between in-laws being something that isn't really well-regarded, even if it's not actually incest, particularly when said sibling/spouse is still alive, though absent.
  • Representation. The show has always been big on having a racially diverse cast, with characters such as Artemis getting a Race Lift, Kaldur being created to take the role of Aqualad, etc. The problem (well, one of them) with Violet, however, is that being Muslim isn't racial, though that is a very common mistake many make, and her appearance (dark skin, headscarf) fits the stereotype of what many assume a Muslim woman looks like. A Muslim is a follower of Islam, no different than a Christian is a follower of Christianity, which are religions, not races, thus they require more than most race changes require to fully represent. And Young Justice, much like most popular entertainment, has skirted around religion, with none of the characters ever referencing it, or claiming belief or disbelief. It's obvious why the creators would want to specifically represent Muslims (as opposed to other religions) given topical events, but Violet was never a good fit given her origin of being the spirit of a Motherbox, an extraterrestrial pseudo-mystical object/being that would have no concept or connection to a human religion.

None of these seem like examples of Franchise Original Sin. It's definitely way too long and rambley. If these are examples, they should be condensed.

Edit: Just so you know, No Editor 234 (Edit history here) edited it again.

Edited by EmeraldSky on Jul 17th 2019 at 6:06:04 AM

Found this on YMMV.Bloodstained Ritual Of The Night:

Does Mighty No. 9 even have a fandom? I'm being serious, I haven't seen a single person say that they like that game, let alone like it enough to argue with people over how it's better than another game.

That looks like a fan just talking about their favorite show.

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That looks like an excuse to complain about a work.

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I think both could be cut, but I'm bad with fan reaction tropes.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

That's just an excuse to complain about Mighty No. 9, so it should be cut. That game doesn't even have a fandom as it's widely considered a disappointment. This is not the first time I've seen Fandom Rivalry used insert complaints about works.

Edited by ADrago on Jul 17th 2019 at 10:52:33 AM

It's gone.

YMMV.Star Fox 1:

• Sequel Displacement: A lot of fans are still unaware there was a Star Fox before 64. And this game and story didn't have many of the things the series became known for later. No Great Fox. No ROB 64. No Star Wolf. No Krystal. And no Aquas, Area 6, Bolse, Fichina, Katina, Sauria, Solar or Zoness. But there was Papetoon and Fortuna, while the Venom orbital stages and Space Armada were similar in comparison to Area 6. The stages that did exist also look significantly different. The fact that 64 was an abnormally early reboot of the franchise doesn't help matters either.

Star Fox was a killer app for the SNES, so does it still count?

Wouldn't that just be Early-Installment Weirdness?

It may have been a killer app at the time, but it's barely remembered now compared to 64. I'd say the example is valid.

This was deleted from Ambiguous Gender Identity:

• Alluka is referred to as a girl by Killua and dresses like a shrine maiden. The rest of her family (who, tellingly, don't treat her as a full person the way Killua does) refers to her as male and in a flashback it's shown she wore more androgynous clothes as a little kid, but she also uses the feminine personal pronoun "atashi" suggesting she identifies as female.

Can it be added back? She's heavily implied to be a trans girl, but it's technically never clarified so it's still ambiguous.

I wouldn't agree. Its graphics make it a stand-out SNES title and it get referenced in a lot of Nintendo media.

Does Dr. Euphemism from The Petri Dish count as a Dr. Genericius since his first name is Thaddeus? He's a goofy scientist, but he's not evil.

For every low there is a high.

Whould this count for As Longas It Sounds Foreign for How Heavy Are the Dumbbells You Lift?.

There's a Russian character named Zina Void. Zina is a actual name but it doesn't seem to be Russian in origin. Void is also a word but not something you use for a last name.

Edited by WhirlRX on Jul 18th 2019 at 5:56:15 AM

Doesn't Too Cool to Live only apply to characters that have limited screen-time? Because YMMV.Mobile Suit Gundam Iron Blooded Orphans lists basically every major character death.

I'm pretty sure the only that actually counts is the first one, Lieutenant Crank, who dies in the third episode.