Note: If a newly launched trope was already given a No Real Life Examples, Please! or Limited Real Life Examples Only designation while it was being drafted on the Trope Launch Pad, additions to the proper index do not need to go through this thread. Instead, simply ask the mods to add the trope via this thread
.
This is the thread to report tropes with problematic Real Life sections.
Common problems include:
- Conversation on the Main Page
- Flame Bait
- Squicky content
- Impossible in Real Life
Real Life sections on the wiki are kept as long as they don't become a problem. If you find an article with such problems, report it here. Please note that the purpose of this thread is to clean up and maintain real life sections, not raze them. Cutting should be treated as a last resort, so please only suggest cutting RL sections or a subset thereof you think the examples in question are completely unsalvageable.
If historical RL examples are not causing any problems, consider whether it would be better to propose a No Recent Examples, Please! (via this forum thread) for RL instead of NRLEP. If RL examples are causing problems only for certain subjects, consider whether a Limited Real Life Examples Only restriction would be preferable to NRLEP.
If you think a trope should be No Real Life Examples, Please! or Limited Real Life Examples Only, then this thread is the place to discuss it. However, please check Keep Real Life Examples first to see if it has already been brought up in the past. If not, state the reasons and add it to the crowner.
Before adding to the crowner:
- The trope should be proposed in the thread, along with reasons for why a crowner is necessary instead of a cleanup.
- There must be support from others in thread.
- Any objections should be addressed.
- Allow a minimum of 24 hours for discussion.
When adding to the crowner:
- Be sure to add the trope name, a link to where the discussion started, the reasons for crownering, whether the restriction being proposed is NRLEP or LRLEO (and in the latter case, which subject(s) the restriction would be for), and the date added.
- Announce in thread that you are adding the item.
- An ATT advert should be made as well (batch items together if more than one trope goes up in a day).
In order for a crowner to pass:
- Must have been up for a minimum of a week
- There must be a 2:1 ratio
- If the vote is exactly 2:1 or +/- 1 vote from that, give it a couple extra days to see if any more votes come in
- Once passed, tropes must be indexed on the appropriate NRLEP index
- Should the vote fail, the trope should be indexed on KRLE page
Sex Tropes, Rape and Sexual Harassment Tropes, and Morality Tropes are banned from having RL sections so tropes under those indexes don't need crowner vote.
Crowner entries that have already been called will have "(CLOSED)" appended to them — and are no longer open for discussion.
After bringing up a trope for discussion, please wait at least a day for feedback before adding it to the crowner.
NRLEP tag:
%%https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=13350380440A15238800
LRLEO tag:
%%The following restrictions apply: [list restriction(s) here]
%%https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=13350380440A15238800
Notes:
- This thread is not for general discussion regarding policies for Real Life sections or crowners. Please take those conversations to this Wiki Talk thread.
- Do not try to overturn previous No Real Life Examples, Please! or Limited Real Life Examples Only decisions without a convincing argument.
- As mentioned here, the consensus is that NRLEP warnings in trope page descriptions can use bold text so that they stand out.
- The [[noreallife]] tag doesn't currently work. This is a deprecated tag that was introduced many years ago — originally, it would have displayed a NRLEP warning banner when you edited the page. However, there's been some staff conversation (Feb 2024) about what a new technical solution might look like, so we'd advise against deleting these from pages, at least until we have a decision as to whether it'll be fixed or replaced.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Mar 8th 2024 at 10:49:13 AM
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
Calling Action Girl and Big Guy, Little Guy for NRLEP. Give me a bit and I'll hook a blank crowner after I take care of the cleanup, since these were the last two on this one.
Edit: Everything's done as far as I know.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Oct 4th 2022 at 3:47:34 AM
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
Haven't forgotten about the Morality Tropes index cleanup effort. Didn't get any feedback on the "B Tropes", so I left it open longer. (Coincided with being busy at work as well.)
"A" went a bit more smoothly, but I think it may be best to take this to to the Short Term Projects, post my thoughts about what to keep/remove from the index, and go from there.
- Because I'm Good At It: You know that your job is unethical, but you continue doing it because you're good at it. Morality Trope
- Be All My Sins Remembered: You feel unworthy of praise due to past misdeeds. Unsure but leaning towards Not Morality Trope
- Before I Change My Mind: They'll do what you say, but may drop you if you take too long to say it. Not Morality Trope
- Beware the Honest Ones: How can you predict someone who acts against their own self-interests in the name of principles? Not Morality Trope?
- Brainwashing for the Greater Good: Brainwashing for a good cause. (Is on No Real Life Crowner Candidates.) Morality Trope
- Broken Pedestal: (Already NRLEP - Too Common, but see sub-bullet)
- Rebuilt Pedestal: . . . But that was a misunderstanding, and they actually are. Neither Morality Trope
- Buy Them Off: Avoiding owning up to your misdeeds through bribery. Leaning towards Not Morality Trope
For the new crowner, we have:
Little Miss Badass - Gossip & Stereotype, filled with gushing, natter and ZCEs, similar to Action Girl. (Added Oct. 4th)
Looking at Our Mermaids Are Different, I see speculation and a lot of natter. On top of that, mermaids don't exist in real life.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Crowner for "Mermaids aren't real"
We have a new crowner with the one Little Miss Badass option.
Edited by Tabs on Oct 4th 2022 at 2:24:07 AM
Going back through the list, the following have had some discussion, but need some consensus on cleanup vs crowner:
Some talk of cleaning up misuse. The examples are mostly about minority groups reclaiming slurs, which is somewhat related but not about people who are "allowed" to use certain words.
Most people seem to be in favor of crownering as it's gossipy as all hell. Examples are mostly celebrities with strong/positive relationships with their mothers.
Still not a lot of discussion, I'm of the opinion the whole section can just be cut (without going through a crowner) because it's mostly ZCE and shoehorns.
- Making a Splash Brought up here, was brought up earlier, but lost in the shuffle.
The supertrope (Elemental Powers) is NRLEP, and I'm not sure if that automatically makes the subtropes NRLEP as well, or if there needs to be a separate crowner (or if this is a discussion for the wiki talk thread).
Either way, the RL section is chock full of misuse and natter, listing ways people and animals physically manipulate water (even swimming is mentioned).
- Poor Communication Kills - Brought up here as frankly way too common. It has an entire sub-page listing various disasters, some of which I recognized from the abortive Disaster Dominoes cleanup. It's large, meandering, sometimes only tangential, and I'd support a cleanup on it.
- Our Mermaids Are Different - Brought up here as Impossible in Real Life. Cleanup vs crownering?
If a supertrope is NRLEP, then all its subtropes should probably be NRLEP as well. I say take it to Wiki Talk.
Edited by badtothebaritone on Oct 4th 2022 at 5:37:22 AM
Every subtrope should be an example of its supertrope, but I'm not sure if that's how the trope relationship works in practice.
Wiki Talk said NRLEP doesn't carry over to subtropes.
I'm going to put a lot of stuff in one post because A) I missed a few days due to a project and B) I'm probably going to disappear into Overwatch 2 for a couple of days and not post for a while, so...
Re: Our Mermaids Are Different: I would say that most if not all of the Our (Insert Mythical Creatures Here) Are Different would make fine crowner candidates, since all "real examples" as in examples of this creature from various folklores should go under Mythology and Religion, unless there's a sufficient real world basis for the creature. With Mermaids, they aren't real and none of the examples fit. I'd crowner it.
Re: Vote Early, Vote Often, honestly I'd crowner it for NRLEP on Too Controversial. It's a political corruption trope, those tend to get people's blood boiling.
Re: Poor Communication Kills, crowner. It's way too common.
Re: Making a Splash and other Elemental Powers tropes, I'm curious - could we collectively crowner the whole lot together? As it stands, some impossible elemental powers tropes have RL examples (like this and Poisonous Person, for instance), and some don't (like Playing with Fire) - it would seem weird and like we didn't cover all the bases if we leave some tropes out of a blanket ban just because they didn't previously have examples.
And N-Word Privileges, Momma's Boy, and Fat and Skinny I've already given my vote towards crownering.
As for the Morality Tropes thing, I'd seriously consider taking it to its own thread. But for now here's my thoughts on the B's -
- Because I'm Good At It: I'd call this Morality. It's specifically about doing an unethical job.
- Be All My Sins Remembered: I'm calling this one Morality. As for me at least I think all of the atonement tropes are morality.
- Before I Change My Mind: So not a Morality trope I wonder why it was even here in the first place.
- Beware the Honest Ones: I think this one could stand to be crownered for being too common a la Beware the Nice Ones, but I wouldn't call this morality and I wouldn't put it under the morality blanket ban.
- Brainwashing for the Greater Good: I would call this morality. Morality on a cultural level instead of a personal level but still morality.
- Broken Pedestal: Honestly I don't think this one is really morality. Obviously it can stay NRLEP but I'd take it from the index.
- Rebuilt Pedestal: I want this to be NRLEP to go with Broken Pedestal and Replacement Pedestal, but that's a story for another time and it isn't morality either.
- Buy Them Off: Has the potential to become controversial, but I wouldn't call it Morality.
And since I might be gone a while I'm preemptively giving my responses for all the C's -
- Can't Default to Murder - Eh, I guess I'd call it Morality. It's a bit of a stretch, but criminality is very connected to morality.
- Can't Kill You, Still Need You - The examples on this are looking a little troubling, particularly that Epstein one, but I wouldn't call this Morality.
- Caper Rationalization - Like Can't Default To Murder, it's a criminality trope so I'd leave it here.
- A Chat with Satan - Not really morality. It's similar to atonement tropes but I wouldn't say it is one, so I'd leave.
- Chevalier vs. Rogue - I wouldn't call it Morality. Pull it from the list.
- Civil War vs. Armageddon - This trope certainly has the potential to become controversy bait, but A) it doesn't have RL examples yet, and B) it's not really morality. I'd pull from the list but keep an eye on it.
- Code of Honour - Wouldn't really call it Morality.
- Cold Equation - Yeah, I'd call this morality.
- The Commandments - Not morality.
- The Commies Made Me Do It - It's a betrayal trope, so I'd say leave it.
- The Conscience - I guess I'm leaning towards taking off the general "conscience" tropes. What differentiates "conscience" from "atonement" tropes is "conscience" is that people regardless of whether they're good or evil or whatever can have a conscience guiding them the right way, while atoning means you've done bad things.
- Cool People Rebel Against Authority - Not morality.
- Conscience Makes You Go Back - See The Conscience.
- Cowardly Lion - Not morality.
- Cruel Mercy - Morality.
- Cruel to Be Kind - Morality.
- Culture Clash - I'm definitely putting this on the NRLEP sandbox for being too common and kinda controversial, but it isn't morality.
- Curious Qualms of Conscience - I'd call this morality.
- Curiosity Causes Conversion - A Heel Face Turn Trope, so leave it.
- Cuteness Equals Forgiveness - Although generally less intense than a lot of other forgiveness tropes, I'd still call this one Morality.
See you, like, next week!
The Enforcer
Looked through the Real Life section for Ascended to Carnivorism. I think it's fine having real life examples, being a nonhuman trope, but most of these are problematic. I've divided them into different flavors of problematic. To be honest, I'm not convinced that this trope, being about natural phenomena and pretty common, really needs specific IRL examples as opposed to a Truth in Television blurb in the description that could be something like this:
Truth in Television - most herbivorous animals will eat carrion if they get the chance because it provides nutrients that are hard to find elsewhere.
- This can go a step further with insectivores; while many of these animals are already omnivores, even they're not above eating full-on meat. Take the Great spotted woodpecker of Eurasia, whose diet primary consists of seeds, nuts, fruit, small insects... but can also eat baby birds fresh from the nests of other avians and carrion of large animals◊, if they can find some lying around.
- Most primates are primarily frugivorous, and it was a pretty convenient way of obtaining glucose in a jungle where sweet fruits are everywhere. Many primates have anatomical specializations that allow them to eat fruit, leaves, gum or insects. However, several species have developed a taste for meat as well, becoming outright omnivores, including tarsiers (have ascended to obligate carnivory as they eat only arthropods and small vertebrates), capuchin monkeys, baboons, chimpanzees, and humans. Chimpanzees and (especially) humans are two species noted for accelerated brain development, forcing opportunistic all-consuming omnivory because herbivorous adaptations (multiple rumination stomachs as in cows, or large appendixes and nutrient-absorbing colons as in gorillas) are slow and inefficient to supply it.
- However, even that ignores pigs, which are the only even-toed ungulates to have kept their ancestral omnivory, instead of turning into herbivory like camels or ruminants. Cetaceans, on the other hand, went from riverside small ungulate omnivores to a fully predatory group that also doesn't have much in the area of hooves. Or hindlimbs.
- Every mosquito, male or female, drinks plant sap and nectar to feed itself. It's only when a female is producing eggs that she requires, and seeks out, the animal proteins and iron in blood.
- Amphibians are generally herbivorous in their larval stages, only to become carnivorous as adults.
- Dinosaurs arose from omnivore ancestors, with adaptations for either herbivory or hypercarnivory arising later; small animals like Eoraptor gave rise to both theropods like Tyrannosaurus and sauropods like Apatosaurus.
- A special mention is due to dromaeosaurids, hypercarnivorous animals belonging to the mostly omnivorous (and with plenty of herbivorous members) maniraptorans, themselves descended from hypercarnivorous theropods.
- Herbivory didn't appear in vertebrates until large reptiles and synapsids started to take said niche, some 300 million years after the first vertebrates appeared.
- Many cetaceans (whales, dolphins) primarily eat fish and other sea animals, with some like orcas even feeding on seals and other mammals. Their nearest living relatives on land are the herbivorous hippos, and whales are thought to have evolved from herbivorous quadrupeds who changed their diet after taking to the sea.
- In evolution, animals have switched from herbivore to carnivore countless times. For example, some species of ornithischian dinosaurs probably included some meat in their diet, like the pachycephalosaurs and heterodontosaurs. There's even a new theory that freaking Triceratops ate some meat from time to time. Yikes.
- Plenty of herbivorous invertebrate taxa have a few meat-eating species among them, like carnivorous caterpillars or predatory snails. Still others eat plants for their staple diet, but (as with locusts) start chowing down on their fellow bugs without hesitation when leaves get scarce and/or they're overcrowded.
- Moths of the genus Calyptra are known as "vampire moths" because they feed on blood. It's thought that their ancestors originally evolved stronger mouthparts to penetrate fruit and suck out the juice.
- The predatory marsupial Thylacoleo, which lived in Australia up until about 40,000 years ago, was a textbook case of this. Its ancestors were relatives of koalas and wombats, both of which are strictly herbivorous, and they likely had herbivorous ancestors based on their rodent-like teeth. But their incisors had evolved into razor-sharp blades for slicing meat, allowing them to become Australia's top predators. It presumably killed its prey by pouncing on it from the treetops. That's right, the Drop Bear was REAL.
- The traditional Inuit diet is the closest humans have come to being completely carnivorous, due to living in harsh Arctic tundras with little to no edible plants year round. It’s accomplished by eating the animal, eating the meat raw or frozen (retaining heat-perishable nutrients such as Vitamin C, and the carbohydrate glycogen) and consuming more than enough fat to prevent protein poisoning.
- Humans who adopt an all-meat or near all-meat diet often claim to feel stronger and more energized. However, they eventually run into the same problems as others who eat a similarly-restricted diet, like vegans. In this case, meat naturally contains very little fiber, so constipation may be an issue.
- Some industrial producers of meat feed meat animals... well... meat. Usually they are "animal byproducts" that people wouldn't eat if you paid them. Unfortunately, the inclusion of cow neural tissue in cow-feed is responsible for Bovine Spongiform Encephelopathy (BSE), AKA Mad Cow Disease. This is why we can't eat cow brains, which were traditionally consumed (and considered delicious) by many cultures (and not just ones noted for liking offal—the Midwest's fried-brain sandwich used to be made out of cow cortex). (this feels iffy because it's not the animal naturally doing it)
- Actually subverted in most cases: many examples of normally herbivorous animals that become carnivorous rarely intend to eat the flesh of their victim, they are usually chewing the bones to get calcium and other minerals, whether they eat a small animal alive or scavenge the carrion of a larger one.
- Inverted by carnivorous plants, which actively require the flesh of animals to survive, such as the famous venus flytrap and pitcher plant. This is usually an adaptation of their environment: many carnivorous plants' niche are in regions with high light but low soil nitrogen and phosphorous, so they trade away efficient photosynthesis to develop ways to obtain their nutrients from prey instead.
- Many herbivorous animals aren't above nibbling on sources of meat if it's available, especially if their diets are running low on essential nutrients. Cattle have been documented devouring chickens for the iron in blood, and hippos will scavenge on the carcasses of other animals (their own species included). As meat is easier to digest than leaves, even an animal ill-equipped to hunt prey is unlikely to pass up fresh protein that's just lying there. (general. could go better on main page as a Truth in Television blurb)
- However, a herbivore's teeth and jaws aren't adapted to eating meat, so it couldn't live entirely off meat like an actual carnivore even if it could hunt enough prey. Additionally, stomach illnesses, organ diseases, bone growth abnormalities, and death have been reported in cases of herbivores that were fed excessive amounts of meat. So, it's better to understand most of the cases listed below as being like humans treating themselves to a bit of junk food rather than that "herbivores are just lazy predators". (this one doesn't really feel necessary and is thread modey. remove?)
- Carnivory is frequently reported in deer as many of the examples here will attest, but what is often left out in these descriptions is that the animals were males in the process of growing antlers for rutting season. Deer shed off and regrow their antlers every year. To grow the antlers back in just a few months and make them as large and strong enough to impress females and fight rival males, the animal must consume a great deal of nutrient-rich food. And it happens to be the protein and calcium of small animals excels at accelerating antler growth. (don't reference other examples)
- Here are some otherwise strictly herbivorous animals that have been reported to nibble on sources of meat if it's available: (formatting is weird and it references other examples. remove?)
- Deer (see above)
- Cattle
- Hares and pikas
- Hippos (see above)
- Manatees
- Elephants (see below)
- Horses and mules
- Even Galapagos tortoises (see below)
- In this video a cow actively pursues and devours a live baby chick. (weblinks aren't examples)
- Two videos of a deer and a horse, chasing and eating respectively one and three baby birds. (ditto)
- Duikers. (zero context, could easily be rewritten to explain why they qualify)
- According to a recent study, Galapagos Tortoises (yes, the beloved and humble Gentle Giant of reptiles) will take advantage of their relationship with Galapagos finches and eat them for protein. To do this, they rise and extend their limbs so that the finch could look for parasites to feed on, only to be crushed to death when the tortoise withdraws its limbs. (examples are not recent. can we find this study?)
- Speaking of prehistoric Australian marsupials, kangaroos of the genus Propleopus probably ate at least some meat. (speculative unless we can link to a study or something)
- There are a number of ancient accounts of normally herbivorous animals eating some meat, that more recently were labeled misunderstanding, exaggerations, or myths. Bucephalus was described in some accounts as a man-eater, and much more modern accounts of the life of Alexander the Great have consistently decided that Bucephalus did not eat the flesh of humans he killed, but was instead a bad-tempered stallion, prone to biting. Other accounts of deer, sheep, cattle, and other grazing animals eating some meat have been similarly dismissed until recently when the uncommon behavior was caught on camera.
- Regardless of diet, most placental mammal mothers eat the afterbirth after bearing young, to reclaim valuable protein and minerals their bodies will need to sustain nutrient-costly lactation. It also serves to eliminate the smell of a newborn baby, which attracts carnivores in search of an easy meal from miles around.
- Even the humble sea sponge gets in on this. Most filter feed on whatever microscopic food particles float their way. Some, such as the genus Chondrocladia, capture and feed on small crustaceans.
- Some horses have been known to eat meat—including grisly insane man-eating killers.
- A deer has been photographed scavenging from a human corpse. (seems fine)
- Green iguanas, though normally herbivorous, will eat meat if it's easily available and doesn't require too much biting.
- A 2017 study of a hadrosaur coprolite revealed that it contained the remains of a crustacean (presumably either a crab or crayfish) inside of it alongside rotten wood. Its been suggested that it's to help build up calcium for eggs.
- Giant Pandas will eat meat, fish, and eggs when available.
- Many arctic hares will resort to scavenging during the winter, including eating the carcasses of other hares and lynxes, which normally eat them. One was even caught eating the feathers off of a dead grouse (something even predators rarely do)!
- While squirrels usually stick to eating nuts and seeds, they are not above eating birds, smaller rodents, eggs, lizards, and young snakes when desperately hungry. In fact, some tropical species eventually became primarily insectivorous.
- Red deer are in the Guiness Book of World Records as "Most Bloodthirsty Ungulate." It actively devours birds, small mammals, and other deer. Cameras set up near bait left for wolves and coyotes show that more often than not, the deer are the first ones to show up and pick everything clean. They've also been known to eat the heads (just the heads) off of birds if calcium deprived. Suddenly, their name seems to be very appropriate...
Edited by NonexistentYeets on Oct 5th 2022 at 12:34:45 PM
they/them pronouns. Look at my Neocities.
Also, Examples Are Not General, so you'd need a new folder for all the "many animals will sometimes ..." crap. If you're willing to clean it up, by all means.
Also I could swear we've discussed this or something like it, but I can't find anything on the KRLE index.
I didn't choose the troping life, the troping life chose me
The Enforcer
OK, so the ones that clearly define what species they refer to in "basically fine" can stay and all of the rest go?
they/them pronouns. Look at my Neocities.
The Enforcer
OK, purged Ascended to Carnivorism's examples down to the ones that mentioned a specific herbivorous species and provided context. Also added the Truth in Television blurb to the description in hopes of discouraging folks from re-adding the general ones. Everything looking okay?
they/them pronouns. Look at my Neocities.
I'm going to trim it a bit further, for one thing, deer seem to have two entries, and for another, there are quite a few omnivores listed (Pandas are omnivores, just primarily bamboo), which is a shoehorn anyways.
I didn't choose the troping life, the troping life chose me
We seem to have some consensus on the following (will holler for crowner):
- Poor Communication Kills - Too Common, also attracting natter and shoehorns (Added Oct. 6th)
- Momma's Boy - Too Common, attracting celebrity gushing (Added Oct. 6th)
- Our Mermaids Are Different - Impossible in Real Life (Added Oct. 6th)
- Making a Splash - Impossible in Real Life, also the supertrope (Elemental Powers) is already NRLEP (Added Oct. 6th)
Still discussion pending on the rest, as far as I can see.
I didn't choose the troping life, the troping life chose me
(she/her)
Excellent, I'll post an ATT query for it as well.
I didn't choose the troping life, the troping life chose me
Looking at Blood on the Debate Floor, I'm not seeing anything that immediately jumps out as problematic, but there's probably something general or nattery in there I missed (Maybe the Cracked one for violating Weblinks Are Not Examples?). Or it could be completely fine, idk.
Edited by badtothebaritone on Oct 6th 2022 at 10:45:47 AM
The Enforcer
I feel like Predators Are Mean should be NRLEP. It's a morality and narrative trope, most of its real life examples aren't "played straight", and I would argue that it's impossible IRL seeing as as far as we know, animals don't have senses of morality and everyone's gotta eat.
they/them pronouns. Look at my Neocities.
^ Seconded. Predators Are Mean is a narrative trope and shouldn't have a RL folder. (I don't care what people have against orcas, they don't have a concept of morality and this cannot be "mean".)
The first bullet point in the RL folder, about this trope actually biasing conservation efforts, could be folded into the description.
Edited by MonaNaito on Oct 6th 2022 at 1:53:40 PM
orcas might have a sense of morality, but it's probably Blue and Orange by our standards... sorry, tangent. to crownering Predators Are Mean.
Crowner.
Crown Description:
Vote up to either forbid all real life examples (No Real Life Examples Please) or forbid real life examples for specific subjects (Limited Real Life Examples Only); vote down to Keep Real Life Examples. To add a trope to a No Real Life Examples Please index or the Limited Real Life Examples Only index, its crowner option must meet the following criteria:- Stable 2:1 ratio needed for NRLEP or LRLEO
- Must have been up for a minimum of a week
- If the vote is exactly 2:1 or +/- 1 vote from that, give it a couple of extra days to see if more votes come in.
Agreed it is far too common, inability to properly communicate is a leading cause of bad things, and the page attempts to document them all.
I would definitely say crowner this one.
I didn't choose the troping life, the troping life chose me