During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Goku Black
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Derek
Could I take Yofukashi No Uta / Call of the Night? The New vampire anime
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Yes to Derek there and Ravok literally said in the EP it was a heinousness concern for Michael should he pass. Please read the post in full if we're gonna start piling on questions guys.
Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II
Because I'm a goddamn hypocrite that — despite being tired af — couldn't forget the reasons Ravok initially chose not to deal with Derek :
I remember a cut candidate of mine that had similar issues, hence why I had her cut.
I'm talking about Sister Jeanne Belanger. You can take a look at her EP here. Here was her write-up :
- Les traces du passé: While claiming to be a woman of God, Sister Jeanne Belanger was much more than what she claimed to be. While she founded her orphanage with genuinely good intentions, she started torturing the children all day, starving, dehydrating them or even whipping them into unconsciousness. She'd also bring the children to pedophile priests, who would promptly rape and enslave them. When a group of orphans led by Sophie attempted to escape the orphanage, Belanger captured them at the last second and locked them in a cave, watching as they starved to death. Appropriately described by Luc De la Courbillère as the devil incarnate, Belanger, despite her short-lived influence, gave the children's ghosts a more than understandable Freudian Excuse for their actions.
Much like Derek, Jeanne makes no appearances in the present day (aside from her corpse briefly appearing), not even through a flashback. Everything we know about her (her personality, her crimes)? Is told through Luc de la Courbillère's diary.
As for evidence? The whole story itself started due to Jeanne's actions.
The ghosts of her victims are the story's antagonists and are clearly traumatized by the suffering she wrought upon them.
We also see evidence of their rapes and murders, such as the tools used to rape and kill them and their bones.
As soon as the Weiss sisters promise to have de la Courbillère's diary published (which would mean revealing Jeanne's crimes and true nature to the entire world), they stop and just ascend to the afterlife, finally at peace.
This… Pretty much kills any chance of la Courbillère's diary being a case of Unreliable Narrator.
I hadn't mentioned whether or not there's enough substantial plot back when I EPed her, so let's say it here : it has. The story focuses on the Weiss sisters and their attempt to move on after their parents' deaths, with them reminiscing on their families and going through some Character Development by the end of the story (which, BTW, is a fairly happy one, if with bitter elements ; kids are still dead, but its implied their ghosts got their revenge on Jeanne, the Weiss sisters are happier than in the beginning of the story, and made good on their promise to the ghosts : Luc de la Courbillère's book is last seen in a museum, with the implication Jeanne was finally exposed). The story, as its name puts it, has for main theme the fact that while we're unable to change the past, we still can use it and the present to make a better future.
With our new rules regarding Offscreen Villainy, do you guys think she has a chance of going up once more?
Edited by GeorgieEnkoom on Jan 2nd 2022 at 1:40:26 PM
J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)
Seems to be the same case. I'm fine to re-add her.
Lizzid people!
Would have to agree.
Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II
Now, that being said, imma cut one of my old candidates as well.
Cyanure from Spirou & Fantasio. See her EP here. As for her write-up :
- Who Will Stop Cyanide?: Cyanure—French for Cyanide—is a gynoid created by Caténaire so that he doesn't feel lonely anymore. Pulling cruel pranks on the villagers for no reason, Cyanure was shut down by Caténaire. When accidentally reactivated by Spirou and Fantasio, she attacked them before fleeing. Restarting her cruel pranks and causing bodily harm, she went further and attacked Caténaire, almost killing him and leaving him for dead. After stealing a rifle, she attempted to kill Spirou and Fantasio, and tried to do the same to her "brother" Télésphore. Capturing Fantasio, she used him as a hostage, threatening to freeze him to death if Spirou attacks her. She also revealed that she took over an entire factory, mass-producing robots for her plans of world domination and the mass enslavement of humanity. Cyanure later starts mass brainwashing of the village during the night. When Spirou, Fantasio, the factory's CEO and the children of the village opposed her, she had no problem attacking them, trying to kill Spirou by activating a crusher, and one of her robots trying to kill a child with a chainsaw. Lacking inside the beauty she has on the outside, Cyanure is one of the comic's most notorious villains despite appearing only once.
After re-reading the opus she appeared in... I came to two conclusions :
- She isn't taken seriously enough by the story.
- She isn't heinous enough.
So, her nastiest actions are trying to kill her creator and "father" Caténaire and to a lesser extent her "brother" Télésphore. Bad, but needless to say, not much.
For those wondering about the other two Spirou CMs. No worries, these guys are staying : Zantafio tried to start a War for Fun and Profit with a neighboring country to obtain its resources and tried to annihilate everyone inside a French factory with a mosquito army so that he could take over said factory. Cyanure's animated version is explicit when she says she's out to Kill All Humans with her clone army plan, and one of her attempts on Fantasio's life during that same plan is heavily implied to be of the Body Horror kind, as far as the animated series for kids could get there.
All in all? Cyanure has to go. ASAP.
Edited by GeorgieEnkoom on May 26th 2022 at 9:44:06 PM
J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)
Pothole suggestions:
- George Reagan: outlaw at "outlaws"
- Kanade Kamiya: Our Sirens Are Different at "Siren"
- Mr. Torran and Lloyd: Slavery Is a Special Kind of Evil at "forcing the girls to perform slave labor"
- King Ghidorah: Our Titans Are Different at "Titan", Characters.The Owl House Luz Noceda at "Luz"
- Robert Gant: nanomachines at "nanobots"
- Shogi: Eye Scream at "acid in his eyes", Drugs Are Bad at "horrible drugs"
- Herod the Great: Leave No Survivors at '"none" are left alive'
- Clem: Left for Dead at "abandons them to die"
- Jim Miller: Kill the Poor at "the poor"
- Lord Hatto: The Famine at "famine"
- Manuel Gomez: Rape Is a Special Kind of Evil at "repeatedly raping them"
- Novelli: Leave No Witnesses at "ensure that no one discovers the truth"
- Bodaway Macawi: The Don at "crime lord"
- Mirosław Pielecki and Sebastian Kubczak: No-Holds-Barred Beatdown at "savagely beat her"
- Hellyn: Wicked Witch at "witch", For the Evulz at "for fun"
- Jorge Valdez: Off the Wagon at, well, "off the wagon"
- Ron Hertz: Would Hurt a Child at "children"
- The representative: Lured into a Trap at "leading Logan into a trap"
- Aya Fumino: Ghastly Ghost at "vengeful spirit"
- Professor Naoki Fumino: Parental Incest at "Sexually abusing his daughter Aya", Karma Houdini Warranty at "believing he got away with it for many years"
Sorry this is later than planned.
Another for Dougray Scott, another for John Woo and because of a couple significant scenes, first for Tom Cruise?
We shall see. Sorry if this is a little messy. I wanted to make sure nothing was missed:
What is the work?
Mission: Impossible 2 is the 2000 sequel to the 1996 Mission: Impossible—the first specifically, making this the second movie—and is widely considered the weakest of all the movies despite still having some re-watchability—again, based on the 1966-1973 spy TV show—or being an extension of it. In Sydney, Australia, IMF agent Ethan Hunt is revealed in this movie to be running his own team now and is recruited for a mission to recover a super virus created for the purpose of research. The one causing the trouble with the mission is this guy right here.
Who is he and what has he done?
Sean Ambrose is a rogue IMF agent assigned to fill in for Ethan on missions when Ethan's absence was prominent and it was imperative that he be there despite being indisposed (he and Ethan clearly didn't get along either). Specifically, for what's now the third time, he poses as Ethan as "Dimitri", the contact of a scientist named Dr. Vladimir Nekhorvich who created a super disease called Chimera in order to try to create the cure to go with it: Bellerophon—with Nekhorvich personally infecting himself in order to both keep the virus safe and test the antidote because 20 hours after infection, Chimera is incurable AND contagious. On the plane, Ambrose has his men, including enforcer Hugh Stamp (whose been with him for years), sedate all the other passengers (the pilot Stamp imitated was also killed prior to the flight on Ambrose's orders), personally kills Nekhorvich by breaking his neck and then escapes with his men and Nekhorvich's antivirus as the plane crashes into the mountains, killing everyone onboard.
When Ethan is assigned to recruit a thief by the name of Nyah Nordoff-Hall, he ends up becoming personally involved with her only to find out that he was recruiting her just to have her take advantage of once being in a relationship with Ambrose. Ambrose gets Nyah out of prison—when Ethan puts her there at her suggestion to avoid suspicion—to bring her back to his house and sleep with her and then tortures Stamp by snipping the top off his finger with a cigar cutter when he questions Nyah's motivations (which Ambrose makes it clear that he's enjoying the pleasure of being intimate with her regardless of whatever her motivations are too). He ends up finding out when she takes his disc of pictures with how much Nekhorvich's colleague slowly deteriorated after infection and she puts it back in the wrong pocket.
Ambrose is preparing to steal the virus so he can sell it to the pharmaceutical company Nekhorvich worked at for a hefty price, nearly kills Luther Stickell with a bomb on the van and heads to the facility with armed gunmen to head off Ethan—whose successfully first destroyed the incubation sample source with heat and after that, all but one vial of Chimera by injecting it into different vials of Bellerophon. Ambrose then after he and his men shoot at Ethan and try to kill him (kill a few security guards while they're there as well), holds Nyah at gun point to force her to bring him the injection gun with the last vial (before this, he pretends to be Ethan again not only to confirm that Nyah is involved with him, but to trick her into not leaving his house yet either). This results in Nyah injecting herself in order to be able to use herself as a shield to protect Ethan since her life means way more alive now than it does dead (Ambrose then deciding the next day to release her into the city so that she'll not only die from the disease eventually, but also be responsible for infecting everyone around her too).
While about to negotiate the sale of Chimera—Ambrose had a vial filled with Nyah's blood as proof—and Bellerophon (Ambrose also wants to infect Sydney through Nyah in order to profit from Australia and then the rest of the world needing the anti-virus that he demands McCloy give him the majority stake of his company too), Ambrose first tortures and murders Stamp (Ethan disguised him as himself while Ethan disguised himself as Stamp too in order to steal Bellerophon) and Nyah is retrieved by Luther and Billy Baird right before she's about to jump off a cliff to avoid the virus getting out (she wanted Ethan to shoot her earlier and he instead chose to cure her before 20 hours were up). Ambrose eventually catches up to Ethan after a chase and the two fight hand to hand (with that horrifyingly close to eye gore moment with the knife that was actually real)—with Ambrose taunting Ethan about how the disease will kill Nyah—and then holding Ethan at gun point when Ethan spares his life and is about to bring the cure to Nyah before time runs out. Ethan is able to get the cure to Luther in time (who successfully injects and saves Nyah) and Ethan kicks the gun up as Ambrose shoots at him and fires three bullets into Ambrose, killing him.
Redeeming qualities? Mitigating factors?
Ambrose's moment of torturing Stamp (who he does at times compliment for Stamp's legit loyalty) for questioning him invalidates their friendship—even without killing him later while he's disguised as Ethan (Ambrose just gets over the shock right after and goes back to putting his focus on chasing Ethan)—and his petty cruelty toward Nyah after finding out she's involved/working with Ethan totally invalidates any care he has for her since he's more than happy to hope that she'll die a painful death by Chimera and take others with her too after that—which also indicates he really just objectified her rather than actually genuinely cared about her. Ambrose's only real motivation for anything he does is ambitious greed and otherwise, the occasional sadistic tendency like when he thinks he's killing Ethan and enjoying every moment of unloading his gun in the process—as Ethan made a remark about it earlier. Ambrose also is not worried about any of his men at any point either unless it concerns his own personal well-being—such as when they're shooting at Ethan and nearly unleash Chimera.
Heinous standard?
As high a standard as again keepers Davian and Lane at least set is, Ambrose is still definitely enough—more so than expected actually—and unlike Phelps, his nastiness definitely stands out more too (with John McCloy, the pharmaceutical rep who's buying the virus and cure to make money off them, he legit is shocked by how violent Ambrose gets with "Ethan" and even seems to be second-guessing the whole deal too). Bad enough that he literally kills a plane with numerous people right away and that he's gonna sell a fatal disease for his own profit too (and he's selling it to a company rep who wants to apparently mass produce both the virus and the anti-virus for profit), but that he's gonna let the girlfriend who betrayed him succumb to that horrible illness and then make it so that others in a city will die of the illness too. Ambrose is so utterly petty, cruel and manipulative that he'll condemn a city of people just to not only plunge the continent if not the whole world into scrambling to avoid infection for his own greedy profit—appropriate to say pandemic, but to also spite someone for their betrayal and that totally works in his favor here—especially when he hold the cure over her and asks her if she wants "to beg for [her] life".
Verdict?
Unlike Phelps, he's a clear .
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Jan 2nd 2022 at 5:10:24 AM
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
I'll read the EP later (people, can we PLEASE try and keep them under 1000 words if possible), but for that cut...attacking an army of kids isn't enough?
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Justice for Skywarp
Hello, I would like to bring up a couple of concerns about Joker from The Batman cartoon show and his status as CM.
My first concern is from Harley Quinn's first episode. During the episode the two of them go on a little crime spree montage while Joker sings romantic ballad, during said montage, they blow up AT Ms, blast a cop with a hose, tie up a bunch of people in a restaurant, poison squirrels with bread crumbs laced with Joker toxin and throw an explosive thing into a fountain, which causes the fountain to blow up and overflow and floods the nearby people away. The fact that this all takes place in a musical montage makes me doubt these actions are meant to be taken seriously.
My second concern which is what I'm most concerned about is from an issue of the tie-in comic, The Batman Strikes!, (Issue 35 to be specific) where Harley is attacked and tied up by Batgirl and Joker immediately rushes to her aid, even yelling her name in concern. This one I'm a bit more cautious on since in the show itself, he leaves her to die in an explosion, but even then he still left a little whoopie cushion with a love message in a police car, which implies he knew Batman would save her.
I'm not proposing we cut him, I'm just throwing out some concerns about him. I would also like to know If this was brought up before.
Edited by TheJokster22 on Jan 2nd 2022 at 5:13:20 AM
Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II
@ACW These kids explicitly teamed up and created their army to take down Cyanure in the first place. It's not like Cyanure went out of her way to kill them.
J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)Yeah, but the only problem is that The Joker did stuff like that even in the DCAU such as when he left Harley some flowers at the end of her debut episode which convinced her he still cared for her.
Hi!
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
That's fair. Seems like a cut.
As for Ambrose...skimming the EP, he endangers a whole city. Solomon Lane endangers millions if not billions, and even Davian endangers possibly millions.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
He plan to endanger the city is going to lead to endangering the continent and then the world after that all so he can profit off curing the disease.
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
I am pretty sure we already covered the Harley Stuff regarding that Joker and why it was not mitigating.
Abstain leaning yes on Ambrose.
Edited by Bullman on Jan 2nd 2022 at 7:21:49 AM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Professor Gigachad
Leaning yes on Ambrose.
When it comes to The Joker, I am not sure about the first one but I don't think the thing from the tie-in comic has been brought up before.
Edited by Ordeaux26 on Jan 2nd 2022 at 5:23:52 AM
CM Sandboxes, MB Sandboxes
Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II
Leaning yes to Ambrose.
Any opinions on Cyanure's cut proposal and Jeanne Belanger's second candidacy above ?
Edited by GeorgieEnkoom on Jan 2nd 2022 at 2:26:44 PM
J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)
Woagh
I'm down for Jeanne getting re-added.
Cut "Cyanide".
Abstain on Ambrose.
Edited by DoodSlayer136 on Jan 2nd 2022 at 5:29:01 AM
NOISE IS CALLING, PICK UP PHONE
Professor Gigachad
Jeanne can be readded and Cut Cyanide (what an odd name).
CM Sandboxes, MB Sandboxes
Nico, Tavis, David, Maynard, Derek, Jeanne and Ambrose
![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
Isherwell
Cut Cyanure
Goku Black
Uh its late and the ep is long. I'll vote on Ambrose tomorrow
But reinstate Jeanne, cut cynaide
Edited by miraculous on Jan 2nd 2022 at 6:46:11 AM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
No to Ambrose. I can buy, at least, that he doesn't care for Nyah like his character page claims, but the EP is conspicuously ignoring non-keepers who count to the standard as well.
It's not just qualifiers Owen Davian and Solomon Lane who fuck up the standard, though they certainly help to—Musgrave and Walker, respectively, want to start a horrible war and irradiate the water supply for a third of the world's population for what they think are well-intentioned goals, which give us both WIEs who want to kill millions and actual CMs who want to kill millions. Most damningly, I think, the EP also doesn't mention Hendricks from the fourth movie, who wants to cause a nuclear apocalypse and kill off most of humanity to preserve what he thinks is the remainder worth saving. All of these dudes want to kill millions of people. What, exactly, is Ambrose doing to put him up with these psychos? Letting a virus run rampant in a city? Some torture and murder? Small potatoes to what I just described.
The Serial Escalation of the Mission Impossible movies means I think Ambrose is left far, far in the dust when you compare him to subsequent big bads.
Edited by Scraggle on Jan 2nd 2022 at 8:01:39 AM
Derek & a tentative one for Ambrose
Reinstate Jeanne
cut Cyanure
EDIT: changing to no on Ambrose
Edited by nwotyzal on Jan 2nd 2022 at 6:55:53 AM
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]")
Derek.
"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."